Offaly vs Tippearly NHL Round 4 13/3/2011

[first_touch]

I agree totally with Middleman. Tipptopper for once summed up the situation fairly (except of course his closing shot about the christy ring cup). Offaly have slipped drastically and the future does not look bright. I know we have a few players out through injury but what's very worrying is the lack of spirit and drive being displayed by the team. The quality of hurling they displayed against Dublin was terrible, as exemplified by the consistently poor first touch. I dont know where the balance of responsibility lies but I'm sure to management has to take its share of the blame. Also we urgently need to overhaul underage structures in the county.

Loathe as I am to say it, Tipperary are the best team in the country at the moment. Last sept was no fluke, and they should have have won the year before too. They have the best quality of young hurlers around, superior to Kilkenny's as many cats followers will admit.

At the moment, teams in the Liam McCarthy seem to be divided into 4 tiers in terms of standard:

Tier 1: Tipperary and Kilkenny

Tier 2: Galway, Waterford, Cork, and probably Dublin

Tier 3: Limerick, Clare, Wexford and Offaly

Tier 4: Laois, Antrim, Carlow.

It will be interesting to see whether there will be any movement in this 'order of merit' come the end of the hurling season.

[bracknaghboy]

The confidence is all but gone out of this panel now. The wheels have come off. Wexford will send us to Div 2 Sunday week and the outlook for the championship is very bleak. We wouldn't beat Clare or Limerick in the Qualifiers and a hungry Laois or Antrim side would fancy their chances. I had hoped a settled team and a couple of league wins would set this side up but injury and the fact that Joe Dooley and Brendan Kelly are probably the most clueless duo in intercounty hurling has seen this year turn into a nightmare. Considering we will most likely be in Div 2 next week year it will make finding a decent manager all the harder.

[townman]

maybe we might get the win over wexford if we did we could get something out of the waterford game
the last game again kilkenny we could be safe. we are been a bit harsh on the offaly hurler's at the moment
who are having no luck with players out and hurt at the moment.

last year match after Antrim it was the same Dooley hasn't a clue yet we should have beaten galway twice
i think this team just need's a lucky break and they could do well.

it's the 14 of march today and mark my word's and you can bring this post back up later on in the year
if we get all our player's back fit and the long night's on the way offaly will beat Dublin in the championship
in parnell park.....

[Lone Shark]

I think holding out hope for Parnell Park at this stage is a bit optimistic. Dublin have found a new level and while more players becoming available will bring us on, Dublin's have a lot more top quality than we do right now.

While I do sympathise with all the injuries, the fact remains that Joe Dooley left himself in a situation whereby a spate of injuries was always likely to kill us. I'd say no decent intercounty team has had fewer players get more than ten minutes of playing time in league or championship in the last two years. We were playing our best team all the time, which has burnout issues for one, but secondly it means that ourr 21 and 22 years olds didn't get the playing time at a younger age than they might have done. The consequences of that are obvious enough.

[bracknaghboy]

maybe we might get the win over wexford if we did we could get something out of the waterford game
the last game again kilkenny we could be safe.

The relegation battle comes down to the Wexford game. The Waterford and Kilkenny games are realistically irrelevant. If we beat Wexford and even they were to pick up 2 points from their last games then we would still be safe as both teams would be on 2 points but Offaly having won the head the head between the two teams. Simple enough equation for Wexford game: win and its Div 1 next year, defeat and it'll be games against Down, Westmeath and Kerry.

[townman]

I think holding out hope for Parnell Park at this stage is a bit optimistic. Dublin have found a new level and while more players becoming available will bring us on, Dublin's have a lot more top quality than we do right now.

While I do sympathise with all the injuries, the fact remains that Joe Dooley left himself in a situation whereby a spate of injuries was always likely to kill us. I'd say no decent intercounty team has had fewer players get more than ten minutes of playing time in league or championship in the last two years. We were playing our best team all the time, which has burnout issues for one, but secondly it means that ourr 21 and 22 years olds didn't get the playing time at a younger age than they might have done. The consequences of that are obvious enough.

yes but to stay in division 1 we nearly always have to put out our strong side most day's, look at the team's kilkenny and tipp have put out
in the league they are never a weak side even on sunday tipp brought on Lar Corbett so for offaly to stay up we have to put our strong
side out simple as.

as for our 21 or 22 year old's that are on the panel you will fine that they have had many a game in the last 2 to 3 year's
Stephen Wynne,Dan Curram's,Connor Mahon,David Kenny,Joe Bergin,Shane Dooley,Cathal Parlon,Derek Morkham,
just to name a few have been hurling with offaly since they were 19 or 20 or came from the under 21 side's
the two mulrooney's and Kevin Connolly are just out of minor are getting a run now so i don't think you can say
that Joe Dooley didn't give youth a chance he has played a good few young lads over the last 4 years if you look back
and see the players that have come into the panel under Joe.

[Sharp Eye]

Joe Dooley gave a good few young players a run with Offaly. The problem is that the vast majority of them were from Seir Kieran. He did not give players from the leading minor club in the county over the last six years, St Rynaghs or the younger players from Birr the same generous opportunities.

[old yellar]

What's the story with eanna Murphy? Maybe I missed some info on him.. Also Barry Harding did some nice hurling for Carlow It in a couple of games I saw. Was he a consideration for this year? Is Sean Ryan committed only to the big ball now? James Gorman hurled senior too a few Seasons back, is he unto much hurling wise? Just a few names popping into my head, might all have retired for all I know! Just curious.. Is the panel as is they pick of the best club hurlers in the county currently? I know a few names of lads have been mentioned already. Just wondering are their lads there who could strengthen the panel - no slight on those on it already.

[townman]

What's the story with eanna Murphy? Maybe I missed some info on him.. Also Barry Harding did some nice hurling for Carlow It in a couple of games I saw. Was he a consideration for this year? Is Sean Ryan committed only to the big ball now? James Gorman hurled senior too a few Seasons back, is he unto much hurling wise? Just a few names popping into my head, might all have retired for all I know! Just curious.. Is the panel as is they pick of the best club hurlers in the county currently? I know a few names of lads have been mentioned already. Just wondering are their lads there who could strengthen the panel - no slight on those on it already.

i think Eanna Murphy took himself of the panel i could be wrong on that, as for Jame's Gorman he was on the offaly panel the first year
joe took over but yet he couldn't get on the K/K team for the championship in offaly the same year strange one that.

as for Barry Harding from my own club Birr is a fine hurler and is worth a place on the offaly panel at least
the problem for Harding is Birr seem to play him everywhere the last few year's, halfback, midfield even last year
Birr had him in the forwards for some games. i think his best place is in the half backline and leave him there
i think the same thing is going on with the county senior team with Dylan Hayden his been switched around every day
fullforward or centreforward is where Hayden should be left.

As for sean Ryan big lost to the hurling panel i think the game he played in thurles a few years ago again tipp in the qualifiers
showed how much he can bring to the game has a great brust of pace and is as hard as nails, i think his game has gone down in hurling
alot over the last two years as he is playing alot more football than hurling only hurle's when Birr are in championship hurling.

[kelleigh man]

any1 no if thomas spain is still involved wit the offaly hurlers? and why is thomas caroll not gettin tested durin the league when der is so many players injured at the moment. dont c anything to loose at dis moment in time.. i no he is young but bergin and cleary were of that age when they were introduced to senior level if im not mistaken! also does any1 no when the offaly u21s are out.wud b nice to c where the future of offaly hurlin is goin!

[old yellar]

Thanks townman. Was just picking my own brain for names of lads.. Thomas Spain is a lovely hurled alright. 19 this year? Pacy chap.. Over my time up there, 2 v strong underage teams had 2 separate spells of winning all the way up the ages. Kilcormac was one, James Gorman etc, and the other was St rynaghs, Gary Kelly, Ciaran Flannery etc. How many of those teams came through to senior? I can think of a few of both.

[Fargo Boyle]

Dublin are flying high alright but i would have no fear of them. The Dubs always come out of the traps fast in the league in both codes. They obviously spend alot of time on fitness and gym work over the winter and are always in top form early in the year when the hard slog of winter hurling suits them. Granted they have gained a couple of useful additions to the team that will improve them but i think we still have enough to match them.

As for all the talk of Dooley, I'm not sure if he has many options to play with. There is no one standing out to be included in this panel that is not already there or already tried.

[townman]

any1 no if thomas spain is still involved wit the offaly hurlers? and why is thomas caroll not gettin tested durin the league when der is so many players injured at the moment. dont c anything to loose at dis moment in time.. i no he is young but bergin and cleary were of that age when they were introduced to senior level if im not mistaken! also does any1 no when the offaly u21s are out.wud b nice to c where the future of offaly hurlin is goin!

Thomas Carroll is out with a hamstring but should be back soon

[jimbob17]

we all sit here and talk about Joe Dooley yea de yea de yea management etc. but the fact is you can only deal with the cards you are given. the fact is that Joe Dooley has done a reasonable job so far given that where he started when offaly hurling was on its knees. Offaly were competitive in the league last year, and did ok in the championship too in comparison to previous years. fair enough things are not going as well as hoped thus far this year but there are a lot of lads out injured or below par after coming back from injury.

My problem is the development of hurling in offaly. How well have the minors or 21s been looked after in the past 5 years. ie. who managed them??, who coached them?? who did their fitness work, what kind of qualifications did they have??? what kind of support did they get in relation to diet and nutrition, recovery strength and conditioning etc what kind of game plans did they have. How much effort was put into it.

It is only if we can answer these type of questions can we really look at offaly hurling.. if this is not right, then even with the best coaches working at senior level you are wasting your time. Qualified people with know how, method and experience need to be working with these age groups, we are going no place fast. would any old joe soaps be put in charge of Tipp KK or Cork minors?? Would they go into battle without being properly prepared?? You can bet your life they wouldnt. But if you are from offaly and you know a bit about hurling and you can tell a good yarn in the pub, you are qualified enough to be given a county minor or 21 team. It is a joke. We are a laughing stock at these levels and this is ultimately the reason why we are where we are. In other counties, the best coaches are put in at this level and results are that players are more equipped for senior by the time they get there. Joe Dooley is trying to bring lads from average club level to inter county senior Div 1 level in too short a space of time. It is an impossible job.

Also too many players from North Offaly are ignored at county underage teams because they are not from the right area. we see it time and time again. Politics. Therefore they dont care about offaly hurling and good potential offaly seniors are lost to the cause and we see it in the success or lack of underage hurling in the past few years. when offaly were successful this wasnt the case.. Everybody is needed for offaly to be successful, but biased pig headed and tunnel visioned people calling the shots are impeding a lot of real development.

People in important positions need to get their head out from under the sand and open their eyes, talk to people who know and have less of a blinded "my way or the highway attitude" as it is rife throughout the offaly hurling hierarchy. Westmeath underage hurling is in a much healthier state than offaly im afraid. all we have at the moment is that little bit of tradition that still exists but it wont last for much longer and i am afraid that in ten years time we will be back down where we started before the 1980 s, as potential wnners of the christy ring cup. I hope i am wrong..

[Lone Shark]

It's a bit of a quick response to a topic I will get back to in depth later, but just to pick up on a couple of points:

(1) My point was not that Joe Dooley didn't develop young players as such, it was that he didn't develop many players. Under Joe we went through whole league campaigns with less than twenty players getting any significant game time. Yes he handed opportunities to Daniel Currams, Derek Molloy, James Gorman, Stephen Wynne and a few others, but the point was that at the end of the year there were usually no more than 22/23 players that had got any meaningful time on the field. And that was at a push. We'd usually end the year with a dozen players having started every game they were available to start. Then from year to year, the squad changed very little - up until this year, when he spread the net wider. The upshot of that was that when an injury crisis hit in 2011, we had a few young faces that deep down he didn't trust, and a threadbare core group of senior players. I'm aware we don't have the depth of a county like Tipperary or Kilkenny, however there's giving lads a real chance to nail down a place and then there's just picking your team and not swaying at all. My point was not that players like the Mulrooneys and others aren't getting game time this year, it's that they had no game time before this so of course they aren't ready for intercounty competition straight off the bat.

(2) Jimbob's point about player development is well made, but I would ask the following question - are there not enough qualified, modern coaches in Offaly, or is it that there are a decent amount of such coaches but they aren't getting a look in? If it's the latter then you can say that it's a problem that could be fixed, if it's the former then that's a deeper malaise. Perhaps people don't get coaching qualifications in Offaly because they realise that such qualifications lose their value quicker than Zimbabwean dollars. It's similar to the point about the lack of referees - in Offaly we don't sufficiently sanction clubs and individuals who go after referees, and then we complain that we don't have any - somebody needs to join the dots here.

(3) Secondly, I appreciate the whole thing of how the league is just the league, but on the same thread we have views here saying that Offaly players at all levels aren't paying enough attention to the more modern semi-professional approach that an intercounty player has to take, while at the same time there are posters belittling Dublin's form as just the product of an early season training regime. Maybe that's something we need, and downplaying the value of Dublin's big away wins in Tullamore and Wexford just shows that deep down, that kind of thing simply isn't valued in Offaly.