Brian Cowen's legacy of failure as Taoiseach

[Long John]

Enda Kenny came across very poorly last night. Very very worrying.

[Bord na Mona man]

Enda Kenny came across very poorly last night. Very very worrying.

We could have the best showman in own leading the country and it still won't matter.
The place is banjaxed.

[backofthenet]

God looking through this thread youd think we were in christchurch.

Now before I start I think il explain where Im coming from. I have voted twice in my life, Once for the PD's Tom Parlon & Once for FG's Olwyn Enright. I am not a member of any political party and due to our area being changed to the north tipp electorial area I will be most likely be voting for Michael Lowry.
We as an Irish People seem to love to over react. God there are similar unemployment statistics in England and America, Similar if not worst deficits in England & America & There are similar budget deficits also. In fact in Ireland we have gone 3/4 of the way required to get us back on the right track and we still have this negative doom and gloom.
We have got 250k people on the dole, yes its bad but those people are getting a minimum of €188 a week. In England they get around £70 a week, Some of my english relations cant get over how much the dole is when they are here as the cost of living is comparable.
I know there will be people who will reply stating individual circumstances, but sorry im not a politican im not interested in sob stories and I wont hold my tongue, I have borrowed, Im in the crapper myself, I feel your pain but the simple fact is that every single adult in this county was at fault for what happened, everyone benefited from what happened and now we all want none of the blame. There are so many people out there who bought 2 homes, had 2 cars and 2 holidays. It was their greed and their decisions that made them not plan for the rainy day, not to make do with a week in trabolgan rather splash out on a trip to New York or Miami.
Its great to have a go at people like Sean Fitzpathrick, who was one of the richest men in the country, one of the biggest employers in the country, his big crime was borrowing money from the bank he now cannot repay. We villify him, yet people who borrowed to buy a first or second home on an interest free mortage get a payment holiday. Lets get real, were all in the sh*ter, and we all caused it so lets all solve it.

[turk]

I feel your pain but the simple fact is that every single adult in this county was at fault for what happened, everyone benefited from what happened and now we all want none of the blame. There are so many people out there who bought 2 homes, had 2 cars and 2 holidays. It was their greed and their decisions that made them not plan for the rainy day, not to make do with a week in trabolgan rather splash out on a trip to New York or Miami.

No way José, I didn't cause it and I know a lot of others who didn't either. Didn't Brian Lenihan also say we all partied? This is something that I've heard many times since 2008 initially but I'd like to disagree strongly with it as it is a generalisation and simply isn't true.

I do agree however that we just have to get on with it. You are right about that - spot on. I am getting on with it!

[Lone Shark]

I feel your pain but the simple fact is that every single adult in this county was at fault for what happened, everyone benefited from what happened and now we all want none of the blame. There are so many people out there who bought 2 homes, had 2 cars and 2 holidays. It was their greed and their decisions that made them not plan for the rainy day, not to make do with a week in trabolgan rather splash out on a trip to New York or Miami.

No way José, I didn't cause it and I know a lot of others who didn't either. Didn't Brian Lenihan also say we all partied? This is something that I've heard many times since 2008 initially but I'd like to disagree strongly with it as it is a generalisation and simply isn't true.

I do agree however that we just have to get on with it. You are right about that - spot on. I am getting on with it!

110% on Turk's side here. This is the classic "don't pi$$ on my head and tell me it's raining" country. This way of thinking is the FF spin to try and make everyone muck in to make an effort to save their mates who acted irresponsibly at best and criminally at worst. They need us to think we were at the same thing on a smaller scale in order for us to not start setting things on fire, including their heads.

Bord na Mona man earlier in this thread made the good point that a lot of us got wages that we might not have received if things were different. I don't doubt that was the case, but I'm now on just over half the money I used to earn and I'm not going crying to anyone because I have to live on a more modest salary. I didn't borrow what I couldn't afford to pay back if things turned for the worse, in fact I never borrowed at all. I never bought a house because the prices were crazy, are crazy, and will continue to be until Nama and government rent allowance stops propping up the price. I could never afford a car newer than five years old, so I've never had a car newer than five years old.


I completely understand that we all have to muck in to get this country back on track, but the assessment that we are 3/4 of the way there already is way off. We still have a €19bn or 55% of income current deficit, and the country is in pain trying to even meet that commitment. The full effect of income repayment hasn't hit home at all yet, while all those bank foreclosures are waiting to happen. There are unemployed and underemployed tradesmen out there with wives/partners on low wage incomes thinking that the day will come again when the seven bedroom, five bathroom mansion they built is going to be affordable - it never, never is.

You can't ask people on moderate wages renting crappy apartments, because that's all they can afford, to pay extra taxes to subsidise lifestyles of those who either had influence, or borrowed too much, and would look on renting and splitting one car between two people as a hell they could not contemplate.

This country can be fixed, but nobody should be allowed write off debt while still keeping assets, and it's only right that those who got greedy should feel more pain than those who behaved themselves. We all have to suffer a bit to get this ship back on track, but this notion that you can "share the pain" while those who borrowed get extra tax breaks or subsidy now that the ECB rates are starting to go up from AN ALL TIME LOW THAT WAS NEVER GOING TO LAST, subsidised by those who now can't get a mortgage at all, will lead to society coming apart into two very distinct groups.

[Bord na Mona man]

We have got 250k people on the dole, yes its bad but those people are getting a minimum of €188 a week. In England they get around £70 a week, Some of my english relations cant get over how much the dole is when they are here as the cost of living is comparable.

Well that one could be considered a Brian Cowen legacy!
In 2005 the dole started at about €150 a week and couple of Cowen budgets later it was up to €200.
When you investigate the finances of the time, you find that these sort of big spending increases were predicated on infinitely rising property values and never ending stamp duty windfalls.

Anyone who has lost their job and has big bills to pay deserves to be looked after, but people who refused to work during the boom shouldn't be entitled to the life of Reilly.

[uibhfaillian]

God looking through this thread youd think we were in christchurch.

Now before I start I think il explain where Im coming from. I have voted twice in my life, Once for the PD's Tom Parlon & Once for FG's Olwyn Enright. I am not a member of any political party and due to our area being changed to the north tipp electorial area I will be most likely be voting for Michael Lowry.
We as an Irish People seem to love to over react. God there are similar unemployment statistics in England and America, Similar if not worst deficits in England & America & There are similar budget deficits also. In fact in Ireland we have gone 3/4 of the way required to get us back on the right track and we still have this negative doom and gloom.
We have got 250k people on the dole, yes its bad but those people are getting a minimum of €188 a week. In England they get around £70 a week, Some of my english relations cant get over how much the dole is when they are here as the cost of living is comparable.
I know there will be people who will reply stating individual circumstances, but sorry im not a politican im not interested in sob stories and I wont hold my tongue, I have borrowed, Im in the crapper myself, I feel your pain but the simple fact is that every single adult in this county was at fault for what happened, everyone benefited from what happened and now we all want none of the blame. There are so many people out there who bought 2 homes, had 2 cars and 2 holidays. It was their greed and their decisions that made them not plan for the rainy day, not to make do with a week in trabolgan rather splash out on a trip to New York or Miami.
Its great to have a go at people like Sean Fitzpathrick, who was one of the richest men in the country, one of the biggest employers in the country, his big crime was borrowing money from the bank he now cannot repay. We villify him, yet people who borrowed to buy a first or second home on an interest free mortage get a payment holiday. Lets get real, were all in the sh*ter, and we all caused it so lets all solve it.

I'm voting for Michael Lowry he says? Lets get real he says? Do you expect to be taken seriously or treated with any respect after admitting that you will vote for that gombeen bag of sh*t Lowry?

What is it with Tipp people - they seem to portray plenty of intelligence on the hurling field but appear brainless and craven in the ballot box. In Tipp south they replicated the election of the scumbag Lowry with the election of that other craven gombeen dirtbag McGrath. I wont hold my tongue either - it's idiots like you who vote for gombeen filth like lowry and McGrath that has blighted the Irish political landscape. Nitwit.

[uibhfaillian]

Anyway. The GE is over and it does look like FF have declined to a point where they will find it almost impossible to return to the days when they were the largest political party/movement in the country. However civil war politics isn't over quite yet. If Enda Kenny were to pick up the phone and offer Micheal Martin and his party a place in the next coalition - then the old civil war divide in Irish politics would finally be dead and buried. FF are too toxic for anyone to coalesce with right now but perhaps in 5 years time if they were to remain a small party like they are after this General Election, then they could be tempted to be a junior party in a government - and that at last would signal the end of civil war politics in Ireland.

Going back to the point of this thread I don't think it was Cowen in particular who destroyed Fianna Fail - the blame for that lies chiefly with the spiv Ahern in my view - though Cowen didn't do much to help matters for FF in his time as Taoiseach. FF may continue to survive of course, but it will be difficult for them to find a niche now and their days of being all things to all men are surely gone and never to return. It would be good for the Irish political scene nationally if that was to be the case.

[backofthenet]

I'm voting for Michael Lowry he says? Lets get real he says? Do you expect to be taken seriously or treated with any respect after admitting that you will vote for that gombeen bag of sh*t Lowry?

What is it with Tipp people - they seem to portray plenty of intelligence on the hurling field but appear brainless and craven in the ballot box. In Tipp south they replicated the election of the scumbag Lowry with the election of that other craven gombeen dirtbag McGrath. I wont hold my tongue either - it's idiots like you who vote for gombeen filth like lowry and McGrath that has blighted the Irish political landscape. Nitwit.

You should read all of a persons post before talking crap.

I said most likely voting for Michael Lowry, Im entitled to vote for whoever I want and the reason I want to vote for him is that he stuck with the government when they made the correct but tough decisions over the last two years. I like the way you use curses to illustrate your political awareness. Secondly Im not a tipperary person...so il skip that part of your post. Thirdly Ive illustrated over the last two years via this board and for the last 6 years in higher education proving im not an idiot...so again i think i dont need you to tell me what I am.

Now if youd like to discuss something in a controlled and reasonable manner feel free to. If not kindly F OFF!

[first_touch]

I will say only one thing about the historic and welcome rout of Fianna Fail in the General Election. They had it Cumann.

[uibhfaillian]

You should read all of a persons post before talking crap.

I said most likely voting for Michael Lowry, Im entitled to vote for whoever I want and the reason I want to vote for him is that he stuck with the government when they made the correct but tough decisions over the last two years. I like the way you use curses to illustrate your political awareness. Secondly Im not a tipperary person...so il skip that part of your post. Thirdly Ive illustrated over the last two years via this board and for the last 6 years in higher education proving im not an idiot...so again i think i dont need you to tell me what I am.

Now if youd like to discuss something in a controlled and reasonable manner feel free to. If not kindly F OFF!

It's a free country, you can vote for who you choose. If you chose to vote for the corrupt gombeen Michael Lowry, well then you chose like an idiot. There's no other way of putting it.

The least we can hope for after the economic turmoil that this country has gone through is that known corrupt politicians, gombeenmen, and spivs will be sidelined and no longer voted for by the people. The gombeens are thankfully becoming thinner on the ground in public representation, but as long as there are people like you around who'll vote for the likes of Lowry, then some of them will continue to surivive unfortunately.

[uibhfaillian]

Tribunal report out today confirms Lowry to be a corrupt gombeen b*stard. It is astonishing that Lowry has increased his vote in Tipp North down the years when the dogs in the street knew him to be personally corrupt.

Anyone see "backofthenet" about. Are you reading this backofthenet? Did you vote for the gombeen corrupt scumbag Lowry after like you intimated that you would? Are you proud of yourself backofthenet??

[backofthenet]

Im always about, I generally post about sport so you wont see me on the political forums much.

I didnt actually get to vote in the last general election as I was working in Dublin that week and didnt get home in time. However I dont get your point. If you actually listened to quite a few political commentators most have said that whilst the tribunal is critical of Michael Lowry, there is no evidence to support the tribunals findings. I would like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and I dont see the difference between so called "gombeen" politicans and the ones you voted for??

Also on the radio, the rte reporter stated that after stopping a throng of people in thurles, it was about 8/10 who told the reporter that its not proven and that they would continue to vote for him until it was proven...sounds pretty logical to me, no doubt you think its idiotic.

Anyway a final point. Please stop using my name as a reference every time you give out about some politician or other. I joined this forum to speak about sport, not to get abused by someone ive never met about voting for someone ive never met!!

[uibhfaillian]

Im always about, I generally post about sport so you wont see me on the political forums much.

I didnt actually get to vote in the last general election as I was working in Dublin that week and didnt get home in time.

Would you have voted for Lowry if you got home in time?

However I dont get your point. If you actually listened to quite a few political commentators most have said that whilst the tribunal is critical of Michael Lowry, there is no evidence to support the tribunals findings. I would like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and I dont see the difference between so called "gombeen" politicans and the ones you voted for??

There was evidence enough for Fine Gael (and I'm not an FG voter) to throw him out of their party. Lowry is corrupt, gombeen filth everyone knows it. He has been proven to be corrupt in his dealings with Denis O'Brien and with Ben Dunne. I don't vote for gombeens.

Also on the radio, the rte reporter stated that after stopping a throng of people in thurles, it was about 8/10 who told the reporter that its not proven and that they would continue to vote for him until it was proven...sounds pretty logical to me, no doubt you think its idiotic.

Your right there, I do find it idiotic. Not only do I find it idiotic, I would also say that the idiots who continue to vote for him are just as culpable as he is in facilitating gombeens like him to corrupt the Irish body politic.

Anyway a final point. Please stop using my name as a reference every time you give out about some politician or other. I joined this forum to speak about sport, not to get abused by someone ive never met about voting for someone ive never met!!

Abuse? come on we're all adults here aren't we? What about the abuse of power that the likes of Lowry has perpretated on the reputation of this country? You said you intended to vote for the corrupt gombeen Lowry. Why would you do that now, is it perhaps because he's got people like you hanging on some pig in a poke promise about a casino in Tipp North?

Lowry and his ilk have destroyed this country, the least we can do as people is to stop voting in corrupt gombeens like Lowry. Wake up will ya.

[backofthenet]

Who did you vote for?? Interesting you wont tell us yet you seem really interested in who I voted for!

Is this the same Fine Gael that had its debts magicaly dissapear during the nineties??

NO he hasnt. A tribunal is not the same as a criminal trial, In a criminal trial the burden of proof is on the prossecutor and the case has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt, in a tribunal, there are submissions, statements and witness testimony which is then followed by the report issued from the Judge, this is not a report based on fact, it is some fact and then the judge's opinion based on the evidence presented. So where is the "smoking gun" sherlock??

Besides, every good politician has a bad side....there has always been "gombeen" politicians as you like to call them, Charlie Haughey started the IFSC, the single biggest wealth generating sector in this country and has been for the last 2 decades, he also was a "gombeen" politician. They have them in every single country in the world, Sure wasnt our own JFK a drug addicted womaniser?? How about his recently deceased brother Teddie..and the misterious dissapearence of a woman he socialised with on the night of her dissapearence?? How about Tony Blair & Maggie Thatcher and all their shady deals with Rupert Murdoch. Power corrupts its just a fact of life...get over it and stop talking crap about some rainbow politician whos going to make all our troubles go away. They dont exist and I will vote for a corrupt politician who has provided thousands of jobs in his constituency before I vote for others who promise the world but cant deliver a smooth road. Tell me who you voted for and we can discuss their morality??!

Yes we are adults, but I dont remember abusing you??!!