Offaly .v. Cork - SHC Round 1 Qualifier - 4th/July/2009

[GreatDayForTheParish]

About time to get the discussion started on this.

Apart from a few who should know better, there is no denying the fact that this really is the draw we did not want, although this bitter pill is sweetened slightly by the fact that the game will be staged in Tullamore. Despite repeated assertions from the media that Cork are an old team and 'past it', results from the past two years have shown them to remain one of the best three teams in the country (only team to test Kilkenny last year, performance against Tipperary this year). Until this Cork team suffer an era defining result such as happened to Offaly against Kilkenny in the 2000 All-Ireland Final, this Cork team remain a potent outfit.

To put it simply and aptly, Offaly's performances this year have been incredibly mixed. However, of the two games of any importance that were played (the two against Wexford) it is fair to say that both performances were poor. That fact that a victory in one was matched by a defeat in the other was more down to Wexford's performances than by any action on the Faithful County's part. The most recent Championship defeat to a Wexford side short 5/6 guaranteed starters was a galling result to say the very least, every effort must be made to prevent this from becoming the abiding memory of this year's Championship.

For that to occur however, will require a dramatic improvement over what has gone before this year. Changes, both positional and in personal have to be made and it is this regard that participation in Division 2 of this year’s League really hurts. Due to no sufficient test occurring during the majority of the League, we really don't know how good or bad the players on the bench are. However what we and the management do know is that the 15 (especially the six forwards) that started both games against Wexford have quite simply not performed. To leave the team unchanged for the game against Cork, a team of ‘untouchables’, is bad for the moral of the panel, for the supporters and for the management. If changes are not made and a loss ensues it would be a terrible indictment upon this management as at the moment there are genuine reasons for three if not four of the starting forwards to be dropped.

Regarding changes concerning position again I come to the issue of Rory Hanniffy at wing back. The playing of this player here is difficult to fathom. He his Offaly's most naturally skilled, talented and fastest player. As such he is an exemplary midfielder, in this position the best can be gotten from him when it comes to both defence and attack. A characteristic trait of his is to pick up ball, create an overlap and use his pace to solo through the heart of the opposition defence either scoring a point himself (as he did against Wexford four weeks ago) or laying off the ball to set up something more (as happened for Brian Lonergan's goal for Birr against Kinnitty in the senior final last year). It seems to escape the management’s attention that the relative successes of last year occurred when Murphy and Hanniffy were paired at midfield. That is a Kilkenny-worthy midfield and the splitting of it this year has coincided with poor form. Coincidence or consequence? I know which side of the fence I sit on.

But perhaps the greatest indictment of the decision to play Rory Hanniffy at wing back is to imagine oneself as the opposing manager. Looking at videos and through general reputation, you would indentify Rory Hanniffy at midfield as one of Offaly’s greatest threats, especially with regards to his offensive capabilities. Plans would be set in motion to curtail him, your players would be warned. So imagine your delight when you see him instead posted at wing back, negated from the offensive aspects of the game. This allied to the fact that he is by no means a great wing back leaves you, the opposition manager, on cloud nine and the majority of Offaly supporters developing high blood pressure. Birr fell in to this very trap against Ballyhale last November, worrying too much about the opposition instead of concentrating on their own game. Hanniffy was played at wing back to curtail the perceived strengths of the Ballyhale attack and look what ensued. Have lessons not been learned? I await this week’s team announcement with both interest and apprehension in equal measure.

So can a result be achieved against this Cork team? Most certainly yes. The Tullamore factor is of huge importance and hopefully will ensure a good home support, provided too many don’t travel to Wexford. A positive result will require better performances from both the players and the management but provided that occurs there is no reason to fear the worst and every reason to demand the best. Kilkenny aside, there is little to separate the remaining teams in the country. Saturday night would be a good night to prove this.

Era defining results? Saturday perhaps.

[red exile]

will it be tickets or pay at the gate

[the flying saucer]

About time to get the discussion started on this.

Apart from a few who should know better, there is no denying the fact that this really is the draw we did not want, although this bitter pill is sweetened slightly by the fact that the game will be staged in Tullamore. Despite repeated assertions from the media that Cork are an old team and 'past it', results from the past two years have shown them to remain one of the best three teams in the country (only team to test Kilkenny last year, performance against Tipperary this year). Until this Cork team suffer an era defining result such as happened to Offaly against Kilkenny in the 2000 All-Ireland Final, this Cork team remain a potent outfit.

To put it simply and aptly, Offaly's performances this year have been incredibly mixed. However, of the two games of any importance that were played (the two against Wexford) it is fair to say that both performances were poor. That fact that a victory in one was matched by a defeat in the other was more down to Wexford's performances than by any action on the Faithful County's part. The most recent Championship defeat to a Wexford side short 5/6 guaranteed starters was a galling result to say the very least, every effort must be made to prevent this from becoming the abiding memory of this year's Championship.

For that to occur however, will require a dramatic improvement over what has gone before this year. Changes, both positional and in personal have to be made and it is this regard that participation in Division 2 of this year’s League really hurts. Due to no sufficient test occurring during the majority of the League, we really don't know how good or bad the players on the bench are. However what we and the management do know is that the 15 (especially the six forwards) that started both games against Wexford have quite simply not performed. To leave the team unchanged for the game against Cork, a team of ‘untouchables’, is bad for the moral of the panel, for the supporters and for the management. If changes are not made and a loss ensues it would be a terrible indictment upon this management as at the moment there are genuine reasons for three if not four of the starting forwards to be dropped.

Regarding changes concerning position again I come to the issue of Rory Hanniffy at wing back. The playing of this player here is difficult to fathom. He his Offaly's most naturally skilled, talented and fastest player. As such he is an exemplary midfielder, in this position the best can be gotten from him when it comes to both defence and attack. A characteristic trait of his is to pick up ball, create an overlap and use his pace to solo through the heart of the opposition defence either scoring a point himself (as he did against Wexford four weeks ago) or laying off the ball to set up something more (as happened for Brian Lonergan's goal for Birr against Kinnitty in the senior final last year). It seems to escape the management’s attention that the relative successes of last year occurred when Murphy and Hanniffy were paired at midfield. That is a Kilkenny-worthy midfield and the splitting of it this year has coincided with poor form. Coincidence or consequence? I know which side of the fence I sit on.

But perhaps the greatest indictment of the decision to play Rory Hanniffy at wing back is to imagine oneself as the opposing manager. Looking at videos and through general reputation, you would indentify Rory Hanniffy at midfield as one of Offaly’s greatest threats, especially with regards to his offensive capabilities. Plans would be set in motion to curtail him, your players would be warned. So imagine your delight when you see him instead posted at wing back, negated from the offensive aspects of the game. This allied to the fact that he is by no means a great wing back leaves you, the opposition manager, on cloud nine and the majority of Offaly supporters developing high blood pressure. Birr fell in to this very trap against Ballyhale last November, worrying too much about the opposition instead of concentrating on their own game. Hanniffy was played at wing back to curtail the perceived strengths of the Ballyhale attack and look what ensued. Have lessons not been learned? I await this week’s team announcement with both interest and apprehension in equal measure.

So can a result be achieved against this Cork team? Most certainly yes. The Tullamore factor is of huge importance and hopefully will ensure a good home support, provided too many don’t travel to Wexford. A positive result will require better performances from both the players and the management but provided that occurs there is no reason to fear the worst and every reason to demand the best. Kilkenny aside, there is little to separate the remaining teams in the country. Saturday night would be a good night to prove this.

Era defining results? Saturday perhaps.

i agree entirely with your coments,the management have given the forwards enough chances and they still haven't performed .
time now to give some of the subs a chance they surely can't be any worse than what we have looked at all year.

[Lone Shark]

Just to pick up on your first point, since I was one of those who you feel "should know better", I still think that staying in the championship for the sake of staying in the championship is of no value. Much and all as I would like to believe otherwise, we will not be All Ireland champions this year. In order to take something out of the year, we need a win, and preferably a win over a big name.

Cork are as big a name as there is, and people are getting carried away with their close game against Tipperary. Tipp simply disappeared for most of the second half of that game and let Cork hurl as they please, partially down to the players and partially down to some appalling positional switches from Liam Sheedy. It could easily be argued that Tipp hurled no worse than they did against Clare, who came within two points, and yet if Clare were coming to Tullamore there would be no such apprehension, we'd rightly feel like we were in a 50/50 match.

If we drew Antrim or Laois and got past them, we would then be in phase three of the qualifiers against another decent hurling county, and one who would have been on the back of winning a meaningful championship match. Now we have a notoriously arrogant county who simply will not countenance the possibility of defeat, who have not won a game and who will be massaged all week by the media into thinking they will walk through this, coming to our home venue.

Essentially we have the opportunity here to secure a big win which will be a huge motivation all throughout next winter and which will prove that this team is moving in the right direction. I still think this was the ideal draw.


Regarding the issue of different players being brought in, I agree wholeheartedly that Rory and Brendan should be restored to the midfield and that something has to be done with the forward line. I wouldn't go so far as to drop lads like Brian Carroll or Joe Bergin, but we can't keep leaving them play out a minimum of 55 minutes even if they are off form. I'd be picking them, but having a strategy in place for when one or both misfires, and put that into action as early as 20-25 minutes in. Realistically Shane Dooley and Derek Molloy have been the best of a bad bunch so I'd start them too, while Joe Brady can play a role if we use him that way - but if we don't, then I don't see the point in picking him. He and Currams have to be under real pressure you would think.

Of course in an ideal world our alternatives would have been tested during the league, however getting out of division two was crucial so I'd be slow to criticise Joe Dooley for that. I said at the start of the year that getting out of division two and retaining Liam McCarthy status would be enough to make this a reasonable year, while another season in division two could have killed us. He took a decision to stick with his first team throughout and it bore fruit then, so I think we should be happy to pay the price now. That said, surely there must be a case for some of the alternatives getting some meaningful game time here.

[Bord na Mona man]

Cork are as big a name as there is, and people are getting carried away with their close game against Tipperary. Tipp simply disappeared for most of the second half of that game and let Cork hurl as they please, partially down to the players and partially down to some appalling positional switches from Liam Sheedy. It could easily be argued that Tipp hurled no worse than they did against Clare, who came within two points, and yet if Clare were coming to Tullamore there would be no such apprehension, we'd rightly feel like we were in a 50/50 match.

I thought that too.
There was lots of contentment coming form Cork that they were back on track after managing to get back into the game against Tipp.
However a middling Clare team did the same.

This fixture is set up for Offaly in many ways. Home advantage, an opposition who probably overrate themselves, the players wanting to right the wrongs of Wexford Park.
By all means Cork are the most likely team to prevail, but Offaly have a shot here.

[naasmanxrhode]

Offaly 7/2 Cork 2/9 (paddy power odds), 7/2 is a fair price on Offaly with home advantage, I just hope that Joe picks a better team than the one that started in Wexford Park.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Just to pick up on your first point, since I was one of those who you feel "should know better", I still think that staying in the championship for the sake of staying in the championship is of no value. Much and all as I would like to believe otherwise, we will not be All Ireland champions this year. In order to take something out of the year, we need a win, and preferably a win over a big name.

Cork are as big a name as there is, and people are getting carried away with their close game against Tipperary. Tipp simply disappeared for most of the second half of that game and let Cork hurl as they please, partially down to the players and partially down to some appalling positional switches from Liam Sheedy. It could easily be argued that Tipp hurled no worse than they did against Clare, who came within two points, and yet if Clare were coming to Tullamore there would be no such apprehension, we'd rightly feel like we were in a 50/50 match.

If we drew Antrim or Laois and got past them, we would then be in phase three of the qualifiers against another decent hurling county, and one who would have been on the back of winning a meaningful championship match. Now we have a notoriously arrogant county who simply will not countenance the possibility of defeat, who have not won a game and who will be massaged all week by the media into thinking they will walk through this, coming to our home venue.

Essentially we have the opportunity here to secure a big win which will be a huge motivation all throughout next winter and which will prove that this team is moving in the right direction. I still think this was the ideal draw.

I would prefer this topic to remain focused on the match ahead but I felt this point had to be made.

Fundamentally, I’m going to have to disagree with you here. Actually what you are saying makes little or no sense. By your logic why not scrap the qualifiers and draw Offaly against Kilkenny in the first round of the Leinster Championship every year. If we beat them fantastic, if not sure it’s better we are out as no point ‘being in the championship for the sake of it’. The fact remains that for a team with an age profile of Offaly and with the lack of success in recent years, victories and long summers are of a necessity in keeping the moral of the hurling community in this county alive.

Take last year as an example. In the round of the qualifiers where we bet Limerick, Dublin lost away to Cork (albeit narrowly). Now imagine if instead we had been draw to play Cork. In all probability we would have been beaten and things would have continued as before, Offaly gone, no improvement seen or made and no light and the end of a dark tunnel that began in the year 2000. Instead we got Limerick, victory against whom led to confidence and a good performance against Waterford. All of a sudden the future was a little brighter, the players had something to build on and the supporters had something to cheer about. Indeed this board was infused with a bit more optimism about the future, a welcome contrast form the persistent negativity of years before. It is such optimism, such hope throughout a county that can not be underestimated in the developing of team that can challenge for honours. Crucially for the players, a year such as last year, does wonders for moral and belief makes going back to training in dark January that little bit more bearable.

''I still think that staying in the championship for the sake of staying in the championship is of no value''. Last year Offaly were never going to win the All-Ireland Championship. Yet no one with a shred of sense can say that by staying in the Championship last year and achieving the performances against Limerick and Waterford was of 'no value'. Instead last year did nothing but good for the team and for hurling in Offaly. Here, your above point falls asunder.

The fact remains that Cork are one of the top three teams in the country. Now I agree that victories over Laois or Antrim would be of limited value in themselves. However they would have allowed us to progress to Round 3 of the qualifiers where we would be drawn against the winners from Round 2, teams who, on evidence are inferior, to Cork. With a bit of luck and a lot of effort it would have allowed the current team to make the progression that is currently needed in an easier fashion than the draw that is currently in front of us. That said, the draw in front of us in eminently surmountable.

‘No point being in the championship for the sake of it’. Really Lone Shark? In that case why not just scrap the entire hurling championship as it stands and just promote Kilkenny and Tipperary to the final. After all no other team has a chance of winning it so no point in the likes of Limerick, Clare, Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Galway being in the championship for the sake of it.

No, there is every point, if for nothing more than the fact that I, and many more, derive a simple pleasure from watching our county play hurling throughout the summer.

[Lone Shark]

I agree that wins mean a lot to a team, but I do think that little or nothing would be gained from a win over Laois or Antrim, while a huge amount could be cost if we lost to them.

The second root cause of our disagreement seems to be that you think that Galway/Clare/Wexford/Limerick would be a lot easier to beat than Cork. Again, we'll have to agree to differ since I think that Cork are over-rated right now and while they are at least as good as any of those four and better than them all bar Galway, getting Cork on our home ground when they haven't had a win yet outweighs that in my view, since if we got to phase three we'd have to face the best of those four, and then without having had a real and meaningful win ourselves.

Last year the championship was of value, but that was because beating Limerick and competing well against Waterford was of value - it's all about the meaningful performances, as opposed to simply staying in the championship by getting lucky draws. There's no point postponing the inevitable in my view - our championship season will be based about how we perform against the nine other decent hurling teams, so why not get on with playing them - particularly when we get to bring Cork to our home pitch?

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Fair enough but this comes back to one of the first points made in my original post, that this Cork team has been written off numerous times over the past two years only for them to defy that with results that suggest otherwise. Until Cork suffer an era defining result, they have to remain in the top three teams in the country, better than Wexford, Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Dublin and Galway. Opinions will differ and suggest different rankings but the hard evidence, results, remain and can not be ignored.

Again era defining results have to come sometime. Cork started against Tipperary with the same half back line, midfield and half forward as started the 2004 All-Ireland Final so for them such a result is going to come sooner rather than later. Saturday would suit me.

[Lone Shark]

Fair enough but this comes back to one of the first points made in my original post, that this Cork team has been written off numerous times over the past two years only for them to defy that with results that suggest otherwise. Until Cork suffer an era defining result, they have to remain in the top three teams in the country, better than Wexford, Clare, Limerick, Waterford, Dublin and Galway. Opinions will differ and suggest different rankings but the hard evidence, results, remain and can not be ignored.

Again era defining results have to come sometime. Cork started against Tipperary with the same half back line, midfield and half forward as started the 2004 All-Ireland Final so for them such a result is going to come sooner rather than later. Saturday would suit me.

Funnily enough I don't think we disagree that fundamentally at all, in the sense that I too would respect Cork, but feel that their Waterloo is on the horizon, and it would please me greatly for Offaly to be the county to bring that about.

If there was an option to draw any one of the other four in phase three I'd say fair enough, but there isn't - you have to draw one of the two winners, which changes things completely in my view.

[faithfulman]

I agree with LS that this is probably the best draw we could have got.Realistically, beating Leix/Antrim would only delay our inevitable championship exit.However if we were to beat Cork it would provide the whole county with a renewed optimism and we would welcome Limerick/Clare/Galway/Wexford.Even if we were to lose it would allow our players to return to action with their clubs. If we are to win we will have to do it without some of our most experienced players,as we have some major injury worries.Joe Brady,Jimmy Rigney,Dan Currams are all almost certainly ruled out,while Ger Oakley and David Franks are only given a 50/50 chance of making the game.While these players would all be a massive loss it could be a chance for the likes of Del Morkan,Conor Mahon and Dylan Hayden, who all hurled well in a challenge against Limerick last Sunday.Mahon was at centre forward and Hayden wing back.

[Bord na Mona man]

Here is a good preview of the game by Henry Martin:

http://www.anfearrua.com/story.asp?id=2895

Interesting point about using Birr actually.
Maybe the narrow pitch and claustrophobic atmosphere would have gotten to them.
Offaly would be able to shut down their running game more easily.

[Bord na Mona man]

Cork team named:

Donal Óg Cusack
Shane O'Neill
Eoin Cadogan
Shane Murphy
John Gardiner
Ronan Curran
Seán Óg Ó hAilpín
Tom Kenny
Tadhg Og Murphy
Jerry O'Connor
Pa Cronin
Timmy McCarthy
Ben O'Connor
Aisake Ó hAilpín
Kieran Murphy

[bula bula]

Cork team named:

Donal Óg Cusack
Shane O'Neill
Eoin Cadogan
Shane Murphy
John Gardiner
Ronan Curran
Seán Óg Ó hAilpín
Tom Kenny
Tadhg Og Murphy
Jerry O'Connor
Pa Cronin
Timmy McCarthy
Ben O'Connor
Aisake Ó hAilpín
Kieran Murphy

I am living in Cork at the moment and have seen some hurling and this would be my view on the langers team.

There is not a hope in hell of this being the way that they line out. Tadhg Og has been brought in but will more likely play in one of the corners than at midfield. I can see that Jerry O'Connor will go out to midfield and there is talk of Gardiner switching with Kenny which I find a bit strange and will probably help us. Saying that, I cant see their half back line being changed and this is where I feel where we will really struggle unless we improve drastically from Wexford park and league form. Their full back line looks a bit inexperienced and although Cadogan is a fine hurler with good potential, Bergin(on form) is the type to do well on him. A big game is required from Murphy to compete in the middle and if Hannify is with him we are capable of breaking even.

Timmy McCarthy gets a lot of criticism down here but I feel he is very under-rated and can be a handful for anyone. He will probably play with Cronin and Kieran Murphy who wouldnt be the greatest ball winners and I think we should come out stronger against this three. I hope that David Kenny will be back to full fitness to mark Aisake as he could do damage if let hurl at all. He will play with Ben O' Connor and probably Tadhg Og and we are well capable of holding these lads.

This game will be all about which forwards take their chances better as both defences look to be stronger than the men they will be picking up. If we can get good ball in to their full-back line and put them under pressure their inexperience might show there. For us to win we will have to get a run on Cork and build up a lead. That is easier said than done but we will have to tear in to them right from the off. Word around is that Cork are flying and that Denis Walsh is changing things with them. There will be no sign of complacency as our performances against Limerick and Waterford last year have been well noted. They are expecting a tough game but in true Cork style, expect to win handy in the end. Weirdly there doesnt seem to be a massive interest in this game from supporters and I would not expect us to be outnumbered as much had the game been in Portlaoise or somewhere along the train line.

It will be a long week or two for me if we get beaten but if we were to win..... well lets say the jersey would get plenty of wear.

[Bord na Mona man]

A lot of Offaly hopes depend on Joe Bergin on the edge of the square.
If he catches a few balls coming in Offaly could get goals. Cadogan isn't a proven full back yet.

Bergin hasn't had a great year so far, but I believe he could hit form on Saturday.
I remember against Wexford 3 balls landed on top of him early in the 2nd half.
The first couple of balls he fumbled, the third one he caught, got in on goal and had to be taken down for a penalty.
While the penalty was being lined up, he was switched out to the half forwards.
I felt it was a mistake because he was just getting on top and might have had his marker spooked at that point.

I think its edge of the square or nowhere for him.
Moving him out the field is not ideal. He doesn't have a great short game to move the ball on and bring other players into the game.
He is most effective and catch and shoot hurling and should be left near the square.