Galway's win over Kilkenny - Good for Offaly hurling

[Bord na Mona man]

1. Kilkenny are in decline.
2. Offaly's phobia of Kilkenny becomes harder to justify. The players must realise now that it's needless.
3. Galway turned around a 19 point defeat to Kilkenny last year. We should use this to inspire us.

Any thoughts?

[Rynaghs Biffo]

Not only was is a good result for offaly, but the great result of the country and the game of hurling in general! this years final will be remembered as the one with galway in it, 'cos i cork and KK have played each other in so many, i cant tell the difference between them!! every county, apart from cork, will be cheering on the tribesmen and thats what they need. if galway prepare well and get their heads right, they could get cork a fright!

[turk]

I agree strongly here with the lads. Note that galway let in a soft goal after seconds and just got on with it. there's no excuses that kilkenny are miles ahead of us. well they're ahead of us alright but it's time to bridge the gap. a bit of steel and guts are required and then a top coat of offaly flair to be applied on top

[Lone Shark]

It's very hard to look at this objectively, since it has cost me a fortune now that Farragher is going to beat Young, but I'll do what I can!

(1) Kilkenny had one bad game against a team that put in an outstanding performance in an All Ireland semi final - they displayed huge levels of resolve to fight their way back into the game twice, and it's hard to imagine a Kilkenny team net year going out with only two in form forwards. Next year will see DJ retired - the only forward who didn't go to town against us back in June - and a fresh crop of young lads with more to them than just hit hard and grind lads out of it.

(2) Offaly's phobia of Kilkenny will only end when some team - any team - beats them. Look at how Dublin seniors turned it around after the minors won that Leinster final? We now have a generation of players who have never beaten Kilkenny at any level. Until we find a generation of mountainy brooding "18 pints of ale followed by going home and murdering your aunt with a hatchet before getting up at 5am to go milking" types who take an inferiority complex and turn it into aggression, this will always be the way. A Clare-esque epiphany will be needed to save us.

(3) If Galway take a hammering against Kilkenny on any given year, they can always call on a fresh batch of similarly talented players, without the psychological scarring, if the need arises. They have a team that reached the All Ireland club final with no representatives on that county team - how far away are we from that? It's a lot easier to turn the page on the previous year when you have real impetus and new blood. We may have some new faces next year, but eventually we're still going to be depending on the same players - the same lads who deep down do not believe that Kilkenny are beatable.


As a slight aside, for this to be a real Galway revival, they need to go on and win. The 1970's Galway teams beat Munster teams occasionally, but always fell short aganst Kilkenny - ultimately this Galway side is going to have to finish it off, or else they'll return to the limbo they've been in for the last while - much like the 2001 side went on to achieve nothing of note.

[The Biff]

Ah, don't be such a grouch Sharky. next year's McCarthy Cup is all up for grabs again, even if Cork retain it next month. Sure they can never keep a team together so they'll probably lose in the Munster First Round next year regardless.

The Cats will never get over this. Cody will be booking himself into a Home for the Bewildered.

Skeletor Loughnane will take over in Waaherfurd and scare the knickers off them all (except Ken Grath who just wont show it).

I'd be betting on an Offaly v Limerick All-Ireland final in '06. You read it here first. What odds would I get?

[Plain of the Herbs]

An interesting aside to Westmeath's Ring Cup success.

This year, the draw for the qualifiers was arranged so no more than 2 from any one province would be placed in the one group.
Next year, there will be 4 Leinster teams in the draw. This means that there will be 2 Leinster teams in each group, meaning Offaly will be in a 'group of death' again with either 2 Munster teams, or a Munster team and Galway.
If Down had won and taken the plae of Antrim, this wouldn't be an issue as it would be possible to be drawn with Down and another Leinster team.

Better beat Kilkenny so !

[Bord na Mona man]

1. One bad game?
Hardly. The quality of Kilkenny side has declined steadily over the last couple of years.
Very average Wexford and Limerick sides had Kilkenny struggling.
How superior to Offaly are both those teams?

2. Wexford have also shipped some bad hammerings to Kilkenny in the 00's and recovered.
Galway didn't completely change their line-up.
The main players who exited were from Athenry - who shouldn't lack self belief.

3. There are several Offaly players who have beaten Kilkenny.
In 2000 both our U21s and minors beat them.
Those teams we would have included:

Brian Carroll
Damien Murray
Rory Hanniffy
Stephen Browne
Joe Brady
Diggy Cordial
Mick O'Hara
David Franks
Brendan Murphy


I suppose you can hardly blame the players from prostrating themselves in worship of Kilkenny if the supporters feel the same way.

[Lone Shark]

1. One bad game?
Hardly. The quality of Kilkenny side has declined steadily over the last couple of years.
Very average Wexford and Limerick sides had Kilkenny struggling.
How superior to Offaly are both those teams?

Even good teams can have off-days - when the result is not in doubt - plus for all Wexford's moderate abilities, they have no fear of Kilkenny and genuinely take them on for seventy minutes. Our offhand style means that replicating this is not really feasible. The Limerick game just proved how much Limerick have come on - and remember they only lost by a point to this same Galway team.

As for how superior Offaly are to a Wexford team that have beaten us in our last three competitive games? I'd argue not very.

2. Wexford have also shipped some bad hammerings to Kilkenny in the 00's and recovered.
Galway didn't completely change their line-up.
The main players who exited were from Athenry - who shouldn't lack self belief.

Wexford took some bad hammerings - we took them year in year out where a nine point defeat was the high point. They at least had chinks of light intermittently.

Galway didn't completely change their lineup - but they could bring in some fresh faces - just enough for the players to believe that things might be different. We don't have a lot of fresh faces to bring in - the likes of Lee and Bergin might shake things up a bit, but essentially they'll be peripheral players at best - they're still a long way from being first XV.

3. There are several Offaly players who have beaten Kilkenny.
In 2000 both our U21s and minors beat them.


I suppose you can hardly blame the players from prostrating themselves in worship of Kilkenny if the supporters feel the same way.

I had forgotten about 2000 to be fair - but I'd wager a lot of the players have as well, such has been the psychological scarring in recent years. As for the supporters (i.e. me!!) worshipping Kilkenny, it's far from worship, it's just calling things as they are. My instinct for looking at things in terms of odds means that I'd need to find a reason to believe that if we draw Kilkenny in the Leinster semi final again next year the handicap won't be Offaly plus twelve. Right now that's what it would be, so unfortunately yes, my optimism is a bit thin on the ground.

[turk]

1. One bad game?
Hardly. The quality of Kilkenny side has declined steadily over the last couple of years.
Very average Wexford and Limerick sides had Kilkenny struggling.
How superior to Offaly are both those teams?

Even good teams can have off-days - when the result is not in doubt - plus for all Wexford's moderate abilities, they have no fear of Kilkenny and genuinely take them on for seventy minutes. Our offhand style means that replicating this is not really feasible. The Limerick game just proved how much Limerick have come on - and remember they only lost by a point to this same Galway team.

As for how superior Offaly are to a Wexford team that have beaten us in our last three competitive games? I'd argue not very.

2. Wexford have also shipped some bad hammerings to Kilkenny in the 00's and recovered.
Galway didn't completely change their line-up.
The main players who exited were from Athenry - who shouldn't lack self belief.

Wexford took some bad hammerings - we took them year in year out where a nine point defeat was the high point. They at least had chinks of light intermittently.

Galway didn't completely change their lineup - but they could bring in some fresh faces - just enough for the players to believe that things might be different. We don't have a lot of fresh faces to bring in - the likes of Lee and Bergin might shake things up a bit, but essentially they'll be peripheral players at best - they're still a long way from being first XV.

3. There are several Offaly players who have beaten Kilkenny.
In 2000 both our U21s and minors beat them.


I suppose you can hardly blame the players from prostrating themselves in worship of Kilkenny if the supporters feel the same way.

I had forgotten about 2000 to be fair - but I'd wager a lot of the players have as well, such has been the psychological scarring in recent years. As for the supporters (i.e. me!!) worshipping Kilkenny, it's far from worship, it's just calling things as they are. My instinct for looking at things in terms of odds means that I'd need to find a reason to believe that if we draw Kilkenny in the Leinster semi final again next year the handicap won't be Offaly plus twelve. Right now that's what it would be, so unfortunately yes, my optimism is a bit thin on the ground.

It seems some supporters are content to sit in kilkenny's shadows. how sad

[Lone Shark]

It seems some supporters are content to sit in kilkenny's shadows. how sad

Turk, I feel sorry for your missus if that's how good you are at reading moods and being intuitive. Far from frickin' content, I can assure you. However we are in the shadows, and there's no point dressing it up any other way. We will be until we beat the hoors - and I for one see no reason why that's likely to happen any time soon. I'll travel, and shout and exhort, but content? No.

[turk]

It seems some supporters are content to sit in kilkenny's shadows. how sad

Turk, I feel sorry for your missus if that's how good you are at reading moods and being intuitive. Far from frickin' content, I can assure you. However we are in the shadows, and there's no point dressing it up any other way. We will be until we beat the hoors - and I for one see no reason why that's likely to happen any time soon. I'll travel, and shout and exhort, but content? No.

(I think that's a disgraceful comment).

Every hurling county in the country is taking great positives from Sunday's match and indeed Clare's performances this year. If someone wants to tell me that Wexford, Clare and Limerick are streets ahead of Offaly that's fine, but i couldn't regard that as being positive. Lone Shark I've great respect for you and would regard you as being very knowledgable, but in this case you're wrong. Every point Bord na Mona man made you just shot down unreasonably.
Where did the team of 69 come from? If they had your attitude Offaly would have been an also ran for the last 35 years sitting somewhere in the Christy Ring competion.

Also, you have Leix and Westmeath and Dublin in Leinster next year all of who will prepare realistically to beat Offaly and have a good crack at it. And good luck to them! But should we be looking at the stars or the mud???

[Lone Shark]

Good Lord. Ok then, one by one ......

(1) Every county is taking great positives from Sunday's match, and rightly so. I'll be the first to admit that I'm a little blinkered in that Farragher's ludicrous tally did me out of what was going to be my biggest win ever and several months salary, but I am still thrilled for Galway. However I don't subscribe to the view that if Galway can do it ergo we can and will too.

(2) I never said those three counties are streets ahead - but they are ahead. You mightn't regard it as being positive, but if we are to improve, we need to take a realistic appraisal of where we stand, which is ninth in the hurling world.

(3) I wouldn't say I shot BordNaMonaMan down, any more than I'd say he did me. Tis a disagreement, and of all souls on the board he's the one man I know I wouldn't turn, and I'm not trying to. Less decided folk will read the two opinions and hopefully come to a conclusion of their own. To be honest I'd really love to share his optimism. We both go to every game we can, but more often than not I'm hoping while he's believing. Once upon a time I was the same, but to be honest there have just been too many hard days for me to genuinely believe. We're a long time now trying to live off the game against Limerick in Thurles a couple of years ago.

(4) The team of 1969 had no such illusions as the current side about their status - they were underdogs and they knew it. But they were also a hardy bunch of fiercely competitive souls who harnessed that feeling and competed with fire in every game. I take great heart from how we played against Clare this year, but I still think we are some steps away from where we need to be. I'm not doubting the ability of our players - I'm doubting their mentality. The fact that I suffer from just the same thing as a supporter shows how easy it can happen. I can do all that is in my power - go to the games, put my lungs into it since my moderate wrists mean that's all I'll ever do, but ultimately you can't force yourself to believe something. I believe that as things stand we are twelve points or so worse than Kilkenny, and by that logic fifteen or so off an All Ireland, which is where we need to be.

And by that last line you can see exactly where I think we should be, it's not a case of looking at the mud as opposed to the stars - but just that there's no point ignoring where we are, which I do think is roughly where we were in the mid seventies.

[turk]

we'll have to disagree on this one.

going into matches expecting to lose is bad news. lads learn nothing from it and a heavy beating is regressive. better to believe a win is possible, and then when you lose focus on what the players can learn from it. I've picked up a lot about this sports pshychology throughout my career.

and if we're not going into a match next year v clare wexford or limerick expecting to beat them then we can give up

[Lone Shark]

I don't think we're disagreeing as much as you do.


"going into matches expecting to lose is bad news. "

I agree - however I'm not sure how you condition yourself to believe otherwise when there's no logical basis for it. You can recite to yourself, and tell yourself all you like, but how do you believe we're going to win going into a game against Kilkenny, when at most one of our forwards would get on their forward line? When they would have at least four or five players (JJ, Hickey, Lyng, Tommy, Henry) who would be in or around the All Ireland XV were such a thing to exist, and we'd be scrambling to make a case for Breeder at most? How do you forget all that?

It's not a rhetorical question by the way, I genuinely mean it - I've never had any dealings with a sports psychologist before, so I've no idea how they operate.

[turk]

I don't think we're disagreeing as much as you do.


"going into matches expecting to lose is bad news. "

I agree - however I'm not sure how you condition yourself to believe otherwise when there's no logical basis for it. You can recite to yourself, and tell yourself all you like, but how do you believe we're going to win going into a game against Kilkenny, when at most one of our forwards would get on their forward line? When they would have at least four or five players (JJ, Hickey, Lyng, Tommy, Henry) who would be in or around the All Ireland XV were such a thing to exist, and we'd be scrambling to make a case for Breeder at most? How do you forget all that?

It's not a rhetorical question by the way, I genuinely mean it - I've never had any dealings with a sports psychologist before, so I've no idea how they operate.

how do any underdogs go out and beat a better team!

look at clare in 95 - some very good players granted but if they sat in the dressing room picking an All Ireland XV and having big sad heads cos only one or two would get on it - - - - it's just not the outlook you take!

Look at westmeath last year - they were muck for year, and indeed were muck last year but still won leinster (which was muck too)

and so on.

it doesn't happen overnight though.