Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.
Kevin
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by Kevin »

offalyboy wrote:Lads, all this talk about the lack of physical conditioning and the offaly footballers at this time of the year because they did not have a manager until late November or because they havent shown what to do over the last number of years - well quite frankly this type of talk is complete nonsense - any sportsperson who is serious about preparation and getting into the physical condition required to START training at intercounty level should be putting in the work during the off season - I'm sure most people on this site have heard the saying that "you need to be fit enough to start training" - intercounty training is about moving players from standard club level fitness/strength to what would be considered elite i.e. body fat levels, Vo2 max etc - any intercounty player who dusts off the football boots and runners he first week of January with the notion of going playing intercounty, well the truth being told he is already about 4 months too late!!

Lets be realistic here - type "strength training for sports" or something similar into the old google machine and the thousands of websites and links which are available - as far as Im aware a player doesnt need a manager, a trainer or the county board to do this for them - what they do need is hunger, desire and the interest to be the best that they could possibly be!!

Also, who are the leaders within this offaly team - why didnt somebody step up to plate and organise some sessions amoung the players until the manager issue was resolved - could one of the seniors players not contacted Joe Quinn and picked his brains for half an hour and what they should be at, should be eating etc !! Cast the memory back a few years when there was trouble in Cork hurling camp and the likes of Sean Og, Brian Corcoran, Diarmuid Sullivan etc were organising training sessions for the players in groups of 5 to 10 to make sure that when the issues were sorted that they would be ready!!

Everybody seems to refer to Kildare, DUbln, Cork as the template for modern day physical preparation but just to dispel the myth that Kildare, Dublin, Cork etc are doing some scientific high tech training that can only be devised by a strength and conditioning coach - well thats nonsense aswell - squat, bench and deadlift and combined with plyometric pushups, box jumps etc - all easily researched on the net is about the size of it and if you are an intercounty footballer not doing these basic exercises at this stage well then forget about it because you obvously couldnt care less!!
Agreement here certainly as regards squats, bench and most definitely deadlifts and plyos.

The costs are minimal, but the benefits will last a lifetime. To each their own, but I find the deadlifts to be the best exercise of the heavy lifting variety. Why? Benefits can be looked up, but they are also confirmed by how you feel after each challenging set. Sometimes ready to be sick, but always light headed and to needing to have a wall nearby to steady up. Form is very important and straps $5.00) are handy for those who have had broken fingers and torn ligaments, etc. Your whole body is involved and when done right its an absolute killer that takes hours to come down from. Plyo's - love 'em. Everyone should do them. Defs get on the bench and replace squats with leg press if the squats bother the lower back. No doctoral certificates required to put together a solid workout. Will pros tailor for an individual and put together a more complete workout? Sure, but just by getting really serious with what Offalyboy mentions above you can come really long way. Oh and you should be shot to hell and in and out of the gym in 45 minutes tops.
Kevin Clancey. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

Long John
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by Long John »

Lads your starting back into this rubbish about gym work. How many times has it to be said that the main problem with the lads at the moment is that (outside a lack of talent) they have not got a strong aerobic base. In November and December they should have been working on this themselves. If you cant run then at this level you havent a hope.

I and most people know the big 3 are squat, deadlift and bench, but for feck sake they can do that for years but the bottom line is they wont compete if they cant run. Go to any gym and pick out the biggest strongest bodybuilders. They will lift massive weight for these exercises but what benefit is the strenght if they cant run, plus they are unhealthy, most are carrying guts on them that would match anything you'd see on these fat camp shows.

I tell you here and now, Offaly county footballers biggest problem is that they are being told to do all this gym work during the offseason and they do it despite what some are saying. I know plenty of the lads and know exactly the regimes they have been on. What is neglected is the cardio work to build a strong aerobic base for January. The majority are arriving in January and cant catch their breath. Fair enough at club level that is expected. But at county level they are not ready. The county camp is where they up it and build on the strong aerobic base.

Its pointless compairing us to Dublin. Dont be fooled by all this rubbish about special gym routines etc. The bottom line is the likes of Dublin get the guts ran out of them and this is why they can keep going. The likes of Cian Sullivan has no more footballing talent than a middle of the road club player but he has serious speed and aerobic conditioning. Coming from an athletics back ground has helped. The majority of them are average footballers but they can run all day because they have been ran into the ground both day and night. And that is the core of their training, the rest is just a small piece in the jigsaw. Unfortunately Offaly dont have 15 plus players all around 6 foot or more that can run.

Put on the boots and get out onto the field in November and December and you'll see a massive improvement.

Kevin
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by Kevin »

Long John wrote: I and most people know the big 3 are squat, deadlift and bench, but for feck sake they can do that for years but the bottom line is they wont compete if they cant run. Go to any gym and pick out the biggest strongest bodybuilders. They will lift massive weight for these exercises but what benefit is the strength if they cant run, plus they are unhealthy, most are carrying guts on them that would match anything you'd see on these fat camp shows.
You bring up a very important point here. Someone said prior that we are not a body building team and that is true. Agree that cardio is key, but without some kind of strength/endurance training (in addition to cardio) we may/most likely will lack the toughness required.

Agree that you see more people in a gym that are either unhealthy or unfit for football due to their bulk. Those that are too bulky for football are lifting for a different purpose and most of them are on a diet that helps them to bulk up. I'm sorry to say that the ones who are truly unfit (excusing those just starting out) are either taking on too much fat or are just arrogantly ignoring their diet thinking that gym work will take care of everything.

Strength, conditioning (cardio) and diet need to be brought into account to be successful in the fitness endeavor. All three are required without exception. It never hurts to have a mission, dream, goal or whatever (another thing people seem to ignore as nonsense, perhaps because it isn't cool), but it does tend to have the gasoline/fire effect all the same.
Kevin Clancey. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

offalyboy
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by offalyboy »

Possibly couldn't disagree more with the sweeping statements and ancedotal evidence referred to in Long Johns post on the topic of gym work - from I what can gather, what is being stated is that running the sh*te out of lads is the way to build speed and stamina and just ignore the gym!! Suppose the need to build quick twitch muscle fibre's to increase speed happens by just getting ran round the field or the magic shuttle sprints which has been directly linked to the increased numbers of gilmorse groin injuries suffered by players, both of which are cathabolic exercises i.e. breaks down muscle whereas gym work is anabolic i.e. builds muscle!! Also the reference made to the dublin players being from an athletics back ground benefiting them i couldn't agree more with because as anybody who has even a little knowledge of athletics and the training which they undertake would know that the gym is a key element of any training programme!!
Obviously good hard pitch work is needed but a balance is required is all that I would argue and just running lads into the ground isnt the way to go and I think any progressive thinking county or club has realised this and have altered their training to take cognisance of this fact!!! But in fairness this is probably all ground which has been covered previosuly on this site but I just couldnt accept SOME not ALL of what was posted, there is a balance that needs to be struck!!

manfromdelmonte
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by manfromdelmonte »

A properly structured gym program over a 3 or 4 month period should get a player to the training field in January in great condition

1 Overall body strength
2 Aerobically
3 core strength and joint mobility
4 and probably most importantly, flexibility
5 skills

Unfortunately, a lot of the people planning these gym programs place too much emphasis on the first one. and players themselves concentrate on that, neglecting the others
A proper weights program can get you in great shape aerobically, if it is approached the correct way. Same with core strength.
running isn't exactly the best tool for a base level of fitness due to the injuries caused by the impact of running - cycling, swimming, cross training, rowing are all good.

And then when players get to the training field there is too much focus on #2

GAA teams often do some core work (most of them think that means sit ups!), but they nearly always neglect the mobility and flexibilty side of things. Two things that need to be worked on at every training and that players have to be educated on to carry out at home or work everyday. eg how many players know what a foam roller is? I'd say sweet feck all

how many club or county players are given a list of skills they are deficient in and that they have to improve eg weaker foot, weaker hand handpassing, soloing (yes!)
only the best...

jimbob17
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by jimbob17 »

manfromdelmonte wrote:A properly structured gym program over a 3 or 4 month period should get a player to the training field in January in great condition

1 Overall body strength
2 Aerobically
3 core strength and joint mobility
4 and probably most importantly, flexibility
5 skills

Unfortunately, a lot of the people planning these gym programs place too much emphasis on the first one. and players themselves concentrate on that, neglecting the others
A proper weights program can get you in great shape aerobically, if it is approached the correct way. Same with core strength.
running isn't exactly the best tool for a base level of fitness due to the injuries caused by the impact of running - cycling, swimming, cross training, rowing are all good.

And then when players get to the training field there is too much focus on #2

GAA teams often do some core work (most of them think that means sit ups!), but they nearly always neglect the mobility and flexibilty side of things. Two things that need to be worked on at every training and that players have to be educated on to carry out at home or work everyday. eg how many players know what a foam roller is? I'd say sweet feck all

how many club or county players are given a list of skills they are deficient in and that they have to improve eg weaker foot, weaker hand handpassing, soloing (yes!)
Fellas, there are many factors that one needs to address with regards to fitness at the top level, but the biggest differentator between a club and county player is pace/ agility and decision making capabilities. One may be very flexible, strong or aerobically fit without having the necessary natural pace for county level. yes there is a dearth of physical strength among senior players in Offaly but this is because they are generally coming from a poor base with little or none done at minor and 21 level until very recently. other counties (Armagh, Dublin and Kildare for definite) have these strength developmental programmes implemented from co u16 level.

With all due respect, what has a foam roller got to do with gaelic football?? this is another gimmick toy that people think is crucial to success, along with all the other gimmiks that have come out previously with "core" and "SAQ" being previous fads. Core strength is just simple body strength that we all had one time from working a shovel, there is no major science to it. both Aerobic and anaerobic fitness can easily be developed with a football with a trainer who has a bit of cop on and feel for the game while flexibility is a very simple concept also and just involoves warming up and cooling down properly. The problem is that not many trainers actually get or understand the intricacies of the game who also have the requisite knowledge from a scientific analytical viewpoint of the game.

It is not about focusing on one or any specific aspect at any given time but operating a coherent game specific fitness programme that develops all of the relevant areas in a progressive fashion. people on this site are upsessed with fitness which is quite a simple issue to fix if gone about correctly. There are plenty of people in the county who have university degrees in the area of physical fitness (Sport science and physical education), yet as far as i can see, they are not fully utilised in the county as they are in other counties. unfortunately, Many of the people who are given jobs training county teams, be it senior, minor or underage teams have very little qualification in training teams by comparison of the calibre of trainers in other counties who would all have a university degree at least if not a PHD or masters in the area of physical fitness. We are expecting Offaly to get to the top in both hurling and football by bringing in people who know how to "run the sh*t" out of fellas" based on a one year course in exercise or fitness without understanding the key underlying principles, movements of the game and other relevant issues. Army people have been brought in in the past to train county teams and brought us nowhere fast. Yet, the co board will go ahead again in time and bring them in again! You wouldnt ask a fella with a first aid course to do an operation on your torn cruciate would you, same with a fitness coach! Money down the drain!!

Do you think the dublin senior teams employ second rate people, ditto Meath, Kildare or even Longford for that matter who were streets ahead of us in the league game a few weeks ago. Even Westmeath are streets ahead of us in this regard with their attitude to proper support teams to their county squads. Yet OY will do it without haste for the sake of saving a few quid, while leaving the team with little or no chance of success. I would argue that a good triner would make the co board money in that the team would be properly prepared and give supporters something to shout about and put bums on seats in the league games. In fact, these other counties would laugh at the thought of bringing someone on board who isnt fully sure of what they are at. Unfortunately, there is a perception out there that physical training and skills training are two different things, therefore leaving the coach to do the football and the trainer to do the running and the gym work as two separate entities. any physical trainer who is worth his or her salt should be incorporating skill training, coaching and physical development into the fitness preparation as that is what you are asked to do in a game. A tennis player does not train without the ball, a golfer doesnt train without a golf ball!! So why is it that we have to train footballers without the football.

There is a clear lack of quality coaching across the county in OY too. From watching some club games at senior level, you could see how many teams were coached, with so many players doing the wrong thing with the ball making bad decisions. We never hear premiership managers blame lack of fitness for losing games. They look at errors, bad play, poor decision making etc and try and fix them to improve. However, when Offaly dont win it is always because they werent as fit as the other team, they werent properly "conditioned" or some other physical attribute or lack thereof. It is never due to poor decision making, lack of tactical awareness, poor support running or bad option taking etc. These are the key factors that decide between a good player and a bad player, yet we always bring it back to fitness. Kildare are a super fit team right now, as are Cork and many more. However, I would argue that Monaghan, Derry meath, down and even Meath or longford are as fit, yet they dont win as much as kildare or cork because they arent as well drilled as them, make more mistakes and are poorer on the ball. Yes fitness is important, but there is a much bigger picture there that is totally neglected. Offaly need good coaches who are aware of what they want to achieve and how to get there while preparing the team physically at the same time.

there is some serious talent at underage in OY right now that needs to be looked after. I know of a group at 16 level this year who were unbeaten in the last two years boding well for a minor in two years. The present minors are also quite good on past results and should be looking to win leinster this year, and signs on with good performances from a lot of these players for Moate and edenderry in the A schools competitions to date while some won the all ireland voc schools with ferbane last year. However, the follow through from this age is the big bone of contention and is the reason OY is where it is, with the co board not putting the correct structures in place for the talent to prosper from minor onwards!! The talent is there alright, its what is done with it is the problem!!!
jimbob

Long John
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by Long John »

offalyboy wrote:Possibly couldn't disagree more with the sweeping statements and ancedotal evidence referred to in Long Johns post on the topic of gym work - from I what can gather, what is being stated is that running the sh*te out of lads is the way to build speed and stamina and just ignore the gym!! Suppose the need to build quick twitch muscle fibre's to increase speed happens by just getting ran round the field or the magic shuttle sprints which has been directly linked to the increased numbers of gilmorse groin injuries suffered by players, both of which are cathabolic exercises i.e. breaks down muscle whereas gym work is anabolic i.e. builds muscle!! Also the reference made to the dublin players being from an athletics back ground benefiting them i couldn't agree more with because as anybody who has even a little knowledge of athletics and the training which they undertake would know that the gym is a key element of any training programme!!
Obviously good hard pitch work is needed but a balance is required is all that I would argue and just running lads into the ground isnt the way to go and I think any progressive thinking county or club has realised this and have altered their training to take cognisance of this fact!!! But in fairness this is probably all ground which has been covered previosuly on this site but I just couldnt accept SOME not ALL of what was posted, there is a balance that needs to be struck!!
Offalyboy. "Build muscle" thats all the crap we are constantly hearing. No wonder these players are prepared so badly. Living in a cozy gym trying to build up the beach muscles is where this has all led to. Alot of the lads on the county panel have very poor stamina levels. And I mean some are below club level stamina standards. Believe me the Dubs and all the top teams have been as I put it ran into the ground. Im not talking about Mick O' Dwyer school laps but believe me I work with lads who play with county teams and good senior club teams and believe me their training in the field is no joke. There's different phases of training and as far as I can see Offaly are missing the basic training which they should be doing in November/December. Which is building a solid aerobic base. Then when they start with there county panel, the trainers can put them through more advanced conditioning.

Its not all about weights. If you cant run, you are at nothing. I know for a fact these lads are doing as much weights training as other top counties, but for some stupid reason they think the easy option of the gym will reap rewards. It wont, it nevber has done. Offaly have had some of the top conditioning coaches. Dave fagan an full time conditioning specialist had a spell with them a few years ago. So dont go putting all this down to lack of strenght. Theres a fair few lads that need to trim down a bit as its taking away from their game alot.

Two nights max is the most they need in a gym. If they wont work hard on the field, they will continue to be shown up.

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the Untouchable
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by the Untouchable »

It wouldn't matter what gym work those lads got, it still wouldn't make county footballers out of them!!! We're decades behind some of the bigger counties for developing players...we have no underage structure and sadly thats why we are where we are!!

I think Offaly people need to get out and support the lads, because I'm sure they don't like getting whipped in league or championship matches...but they can't compete because of the structure that they work within. Its not the managements fault either because Gerry Cooney and them can only work with what they have & right now our talent pool is not as strong as the Meath's, Kildare's & Dublin's of this world...so the players and managers all know before the year starts that they are on a hinding to nothing this year...they are not going to win a leinster title and their not going to win a Division 3 league title either!!

I say fair play to lads who in today's economic climate are prepared to drive a car around the country to train and play for offaly...because their putting a thousand times more in to playing for Offaly than they'll ever get out of it!!!

Its time to be realistic, because if your plan is to come on the website after every Offaly beating and lay in to the lads then your going to be here an awful lot...there is no silver lining in these beatings, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, we're in the bottom 6 or 7 teams in Ireland at the moment and I would not expect to see that change anytime soon.
For those of you who think I'm just pessimistic...I'm not, I'm just a realist!!!
Slan!!!
The Untouchable

manfromdelmonte
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by manfromdelmonte »

jimbob17 wrote:
manfromdelmonte wrote:A properly structured gym program over a 3 or 4 month period should get a player to the training field in January in great condition

1 Overall body strength
2 Aerobically
3 core strength and joint mobility
4 and probably most importantly, flexibility
5 skills

Unfortunately, a lot of the people planning these gym programs place too much emphasis on the first one. and players themselves concentrate on that, neglecting the others
A proper weights program can get you in great shape aerobically, if it is approached the correct way. Same with core strength.
running isn't exactly the best tool for a base level of fitness due to the injuries caused by the impact of running - cycling, swimming, cross training, rowing are all good.

And then when players get to the training field there is too much focus on #2

GAA teams often do some core work (most of them think that means sit ups!), but they nearly always neglect the mobility and flexibilty side of things. Two things that need to be worked on at every training and that players have to be educated on to carry out at home or work everyday. eg how many players know what a foam roller is? I'd say sweet feck all

how many club or county players are given a list of skills they are deficient in and that they have to improve eg weaker foot, weaker hand handpassing, soloing (yes!)

With all due respect, what has a foam roller got to do with gaelic football?? this is another gimmick toy that people think is crucial to success, along with all the other gimmiks that have come out previously with "core" and "SAQ" being previous fads. Core strength is just simple body strength that we all had one time from working a shovel, there is no major science to it.
Shows how much you don't, or how little you do know.
Don't inflict your ignorance on others.
only the best...

jimbob17
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by jimbob17 »

With all due respect, i think you should read the full post and stop taking isolated sentences out of context. If you did this you will actually realise that i am speaking a little sense. If i were to do this I could suggest that you are saying that "running isn't exactly the best tool for a base level of fitness". Believe me, I know what i am talking about and you will realise this if you read the full post. Not that this is an intelligence competition or anything.

I simply said that a foam roller has nothing to do with football which it hasnt. It is simply a physio tool, the same way as a strapping, ankle support or thera band is. It has nothing to do with fitness per se and there is nothing wrong with a senior player who doesnt know what it is!! My point is simply that fifteen years ago, all people were on about was SAQ, this was to revolutionise how we should think. this has its place but is not the full answer yet we got upsessed with it. Next it was using rugby tackle bags which have little relevance to football. Then it was ice baths, (another physio tool). Now the buzz word is "core training" which is simply strength training that people were doing years ago and had naturally from physical labour. no good doing the core work only if your lower legs cant back it up as you are likely to get injured. and now you are making an irrelevant point about a foam roller for gaelic football!! Lets get back and train with the one thing that matters, and that is the football!!!
jimbob

manfromdelmonte
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Re: Offaly vs Roscommon NFL Div 3 12th February 2012

Post by manfromdelmonte »

jimbob17 wrote:With all due respect, i think you should read the full post and stop taking isolated sentences out of context. If you did this you will actually realise that i am speaking a little sense. If i were to do this I could suggest that you are saying that "running isn't exactly the best tool for a base level of fitness". Believe me, I know what i am talking about and you will realise this if you read the full post. Not that this is an intelligence competition or anything.

I simply said that a foam roller has nothing to do with football which it hasnt. It is simply a physio tool, the same way as a strapping, ankle support or thera band is. It has nothing to do with fitness per se and there is nothing wrong with a senior player who doesnt know what it is!! My point is simply that fifteen years ago, all people were on about was SAQ, this was to revolutionise how we should think. this has its place but is not the full answer yet we got upsessed with it. Next it was using rugby tackle bags which have little relevance to football. Then it was ice baths, (another physio tool). Now the buzz word is "core training" which is simply strength training that people were doing years ago and had naturally from physical labour. no good doing the core work only if your lower legs cant back it up as you are likely to get injured. and now you are making an irrelevant point about a foam roller for gaelic football!! Lets get back and train with the one thing that matters, and that is the football!!!
I read it, again.

I accept a few of your points.
However, a huge part of players getting up to the levels of preparedness needed, is learning and implementing techniques that can be used in their own time to keep their bodies in good order.
Whether it be gymwork, skills work, stretching etc
only the best...

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