Offaly v Kilkenny 17-04-11

[Abercrombie Fitch]

Offaly hurling 13/07/1980 to 17/04/2011 RIP

A bit over the top considering its only April. We'll re visit this in June/July but what would we rather? keep div 1 status and bow out tamely in leinster or go to Parnell park and beat Dublin and then see what happens. We all know Offaly get going in the championship, as Galway proved last year.
Ever the optomist but i saw enough in Nowlan Park yesterday to know we are no Carlow, Laois or Antrim.
Perhaps Dooley should go but not in April. Bring on the Dubs.

[old yellar]

"Ever the optomist but i saw enough in Nowlan Park yesterday to know we are no Carlow, Laois or Antrim."

Ye ll find out that next year! I would think ye have all your time trying to get out of div 2. Apart from those named above, either one of clare or limerick will be still in that division, and they ll be a tough one.. As for lads who Keep going back to the statement, ah sur we re a championship team, rem the Galway games, well do the not rem the Antrim game where an injury time free was needed to level the game? I think ye have given Joe Dooley enough time to turn offalys fortunes and it's time to look elsewhere. To me you are ignoring a far more worrying thread on this forum, and that's the blip that's happening with the minors preparation for a key Leinster game v Wexford. I keep saying that this years minors are the seniors of a few years, yet no one seems overly bothered about them. Then you wonder why there are problems at senior level. I personally think ye need to stop the reverence to former senior players and assuming they know what it takes to manage/train in a more modern era. Like ye had a director of hurling up there publically saying he wanted more ground hurling for the development squads, and a manager who had his players do it in lines of 4 on the eve of the Tipp match. Madness. Ye have great people up there who should be put in place or given more so but I dunno if they ll be given the chance. I think they players who are putting in a great effort should be better rewarded by having a better manager in place.

[townman]

"Ever the optomist but i saw enough in Nowlan Park yesterday to know we are no Carlow, Laois or Antrim."

Ye ll find out that next year! I would think ye have all your time trying to get out of div 2. Apart from those named above, either one of clare or limerick will be still in that division, and they ll be a tough one.. As for lads who Keep going back to the statement, ah sur we re a championship team, rem the Galway games, well do the not rem the Antrim game where an injury time free was needed to level the game? I think ye have given Joe Dooley enough time to turn offalys fortunes and it's time to look elsewhere. To me you are ignoring a far more worrying thread on this forum, and that's the blip that's happening with the minors preparation for a key Leinster game v Wexford. I keep saying that this years minors are the seniors of a few years, yet no one seems overly bothered about them. Then you wonder why there are problems at senior level. I personally think ye need to stop the reverence to former senior players and assuming they know what it takes to manage/train in a more modern era. Like ye had a director of hurling up there publically saying he wanted more ground hurling for the development squads, and a manager who had his players do it in lines of 4 on the eve of the Tipp match. Madness. Ye have great people up there who should be put in place or given more so but I dunno if they ll be given the chance. I think they players who are putting in a great effort should be better rewarded by having a better manager in place.

well maybe going down will bring a change new manger i don't know but i wouldn't be knocking myself up over going down and as some lads say offaly hurling Rip
we never were a league side as our history shows. as for next year it will be between offaly or limerick/clare which ever one doesn't go up as Clare proved on sunday
again Carlow that they can win the games they have to and i think they could take limerick in the final as well.

yes Carlow,Laois,Antrim, will be hard beaten in the league but neither of them have been in the top two for the last few years, i think they should bring back
two up two down then laois and carlow might get the chance to get up to division 1 as it is they won't get a chance to beat one of the so call stronger hurling counties
in a winner takes all game in April as teams that are not strong in league early on in febuary but are coming up to championship pace come late April.

Clare and Limerick play the league final on sunday next and a blind man could tell you at the start of the league 2 that would be the final.
laois did beat Clare as did Carlow beat laois, but when push comes to shove you seen how easy clare beat Carlow on sunday that just answers my question
they as in limerick clare know when they have to do it, as offaly will next year to get to the league two final.

[old yellar]

I agree it's not all doom and gloom townman. Someone had to get relegated! With regards to div 2 teams and where Offaly would be, well next year they should be in the div 2 final all going to plan. As for ourselves, we re not ready for div 1 and I think we re happy enough to be a decent div 2 team. We don't have the player pool down here realistically. I just feel that Offaly are stagnant at the min and to me that's the killing thing. Real change and input is needed both at instate and senior level. Being relegated is not the end of the world. Clare have won a u21 and contested a minor final in recent years and for them div 2 is grand to get things together again. Limerick are building too. I just feel that Offaly don't have a plan in place for the future. Hopefully I m wrong!

[Bord na Mona man]

To me you are ignoring a far more worrying thread on this forum, and that's the blip that's happening with the minors preparation for a key Leinster game v Wexford. I keep saying that this years minors are the seniors of a few years, yet no one seems overly bothered about them. Then you wonder why there are problems at senior level.

Yes, unfortunately this is true.
I wouldn't be an insider to hurling circles, but the lack of obvious reaction to each downward step in Offaly hurling has concerned me for over a decade.

When Offaly started losing more heavily and regularly to Kilkenny at minor about 15 years ago, it didn't seem to provoke an obvious reaction - someone can correct me if they think otherwise. The downward trend has continued, with little outcry, so that now losing to Carlow and Westmeath are par for the course.

I think there is still an element in the Offaly GAA psyche that believes that rabbits can, and will be magicked out of hats by Offaly men on any given day and in any given situation.
The miracles of Seamus Darby, ‘Sheep in a heap’ in ‘98, Limerick ’94 etc. probably facilitated the build up of this false reality. It is obviously positive is some ways, but it has also then meant that clear warning signs were ignored.

Personally I think a certain arrogance built up in the heads of Offaly GAA people towards the need for proper planning and hard work. There are parallels to the ‘stroke’ mentality of Irish politics here too.

As I pointed out before, back in 2000 when Kilkenny failed to win Leinster at minor and U21, there was a backlash and what you might describe as a crisis summit to make sure this trend didn't continue. They heeded the wake up call, as gentle as it may have been.

In Offaly you feel that each worsening setback is more likely to be greeted with "ah shure" rather than "hold on". This difference in mentality is what separates Kilkenny from Offaly. Offaly matched them for hurling and hurlers for two decades, but Offaly didn't possess the same drive to keep the foot on the gas.

But, shure we’re a grand little county and shure we had great days in the past.
We’ll get pats on the head for another few years, until the 70s, 80s and 90s are forgotten.

[townman]

Bord na mona man

i wouldn't say there was much panic in kilkenny when they didn't win minor or under 21 in 2000, they had won every minor from 1990 to 1999
thats 10 in a row plus 6 under 21 titles and won all irelands in 90, 94,99, under 21. offaly won the minor and under 21 in 2000 but kilkennys minors
came back and won leinster 01,02,03,04,06.08, 09,10.

as for offaly not putting the foot on the gas, i think we were just lucky that a group of hurlers came together to form the 80's and 90's side,
look the point i am trying to make is people have to understand that kilkenny is a hurling only county they were there well before we came in the 80's
and they will be there for the next 100 year's.

what people have to understand in offaly is the young lads that are hurling underage or are near the senior panel are not good enough to compete with the
kilkennys or tipps of this world and thats fact. and i could see this coming down the line 10 years ago when my own club Birr were winning county titles or
getting to county finals without breaking a sweat.

you look back on the 80's and 90's there was 3 or 4 teams that could win out in offaly and there wasn't nothing only a puck of a ball between any of them
even the Birr teams that won all ireland club titles or leinster they were lucky to get over seir kierans in two county finals bye 1 point but yet they would
walk through leinster after thats because there was great talent in offaly then.

take from say 2001 to 2010 Birr walked away with county titles in 2000's Coolderry won in 04 but were beating badly in 05 tullamore have been in the last two county finals
and fair play to them but i just think the standard of offaly club hurling the last 4 years has gone to the dogs, and i am been honest i have looked at a good lot of underage
and senior club hurling in offaly this last few years and theres nothing that would jump out at you and say well theres a few young chaps that we have that will make great
inter county hurlers in a few year's.

as i live in kilkenny this 17 years now i have also seen with my kids big in to hurling down here with the club they are in, i often came home from a senior club game in offaly
and went to see an underage game in kilkenny let it be minor or under 21 theses last few years and i could put my hand on heart and say the standard and skill level in underage in kilkenny
young lads is far far greater and better than what you would see at senior level in offaly at the moment and thats where our problems are my friends
so we have no underage titles since 2000 and not looking like we will win any soon which doesn't look good.

so now we have a senior team or panel of 26 or 30 that Joe Dooley has to train to win something with and have know titles won at any intercounty grade
i know people are quick to blame Joe Dooley for everything but there has been 3 or 4 before Joe and done nothing either so why blame joe.

i remember or a quote Micheal Bond said after taking over the squad in 1998 they said what did you do, he said nothing he said look they were the most skillfull
hurling team he ever seen they were used to winning minor all irelands senior in 94, Birr had won all ireland before he came there was nothing i could teach them he said
they had it all already they were used to winning they grew up winning together so that was my point of lucky that a bunch of skillfull hurlers all came at the same time.

thats not to say there is not skillfull hurlers with offaly now there is but we don't have enough, so the answer to foot on gas the last ten years would be more down to the players
not been there as you say bord na mona man about westmeath and carlow beating us in minor maybe underage is not the answer either look at Galway they have had the most
skillfull underage team this 16 years or so and are as far away from winning an all ireland as offaly are. our good neighbours from laois great minor underage team from 1996 to
2003 but still are way off the pace or standard to win senior all irelands.

so maybe its alright to bitch about Joe Dooley and this and that one but at the end of the day we don't have the hurlers to win titles anymore, maybe it will take 10 or 20 years
to come back up i don't know we might never come back, we only came in 1980 bar the 1969 leinster final again kilkenny we were a long time waiting to win something in hurling
so people should understand this, yes we might get pat on the heads for the hurling team of the 80's and 90's and yes they will be forgotten untill the talent is there to win one again
and its not there now so theres F all Joe Dooley or who ever they like is over them can do about it. but i hope any young lads in offaly thats wants to hurl keeps it up and thats all we can do and maybe a group of young offaly hurlers will come together soon again.

Dermot healy got the ball rollling in the 80's bro Denis was doing great work in St. Brendans in Birr to make sure the the talent was kept going for another decade now we
have to find another Dermot Healy and another BRO Denis to get us back again....

[Slieve Bloom Man]

Bord na mona man

i wouldn't say there was much panic in kilkenny when they didn't win minor or under 21 in 2000, they had won every minor from 1990 to 1999
thats 10 in a row plus 6 under 21 titles and won all irelands in 90, 94,99, under 21. offaly won the minor and under 21 in 2000 but kilkennys minors
came back and won leinster 01,02,03,04,06.08, 09,10.


Dermot healy got the ball rollling in the 80's bro Denis was doing great work in St. Brendans in Birr to make sure the the talent was kept going for another decade now we
have to find another Dermot Healy and another BRO Denis to get us back again....

There was panic in Kilkenny in 2000 when they failed to win the Leinster minor or under 21 championship. The County Board called as many former inter-county players as possible to get involved coaching kids in the county. They set up a new structure and a huge number of former players got involved.
That was Bord Na Mona Man's point. They failed to win provincial titles one year(albeit that said, they had struggled a little before that in terms of All Ireland titles at underage for a couple of years) and they felt they had to do something about it. Whereas Offaly have been very slow to react to a bad situation for a number of years.

Overall Towman you make very good points about Offaly hurlin in the last post. Offaly need to get underage and senior club hurling strong again before we can challenge the top teams. Easier said than done but not impossible.

[townman]

Bord na mona man

i wouldn't say there was much panic in kilkenny when they didn't win minor or under 21 in 2000, they had won every minor from 1990 to 1999
thats 10 in a row plus 6 under 21 titles and won all irelands in 90, 94,99, under 21. offaly won the minor and under 21 in 2000 but kilkennys minors
came back and won leinster 01,02,03,04,06.08, 09,10.


Dermot healy got the ball rollling in the 80's bro Denis was doing great work in St. Brendans in Birr to make sure the the talent was kept going for another decade now we
have to find another Dermot Healy and another BRO Denis to get us back again....

There was panic in Kilkenny in 2000 when they failed to win the Leinster minor or under 21 championship. The County Board called as many former inter-county players as possible to get involved coaching kids in the county. They set up a new structure and a huge number of former players got involved.
That was Bord Na Mona Man's point. They failed to win provincial titles one year(albeit that said, they had struggled a little before that in terms of All Ireland titles at underage for a couple of years) and they felt they had to do something about it. Whereas Offaly have been very slow to react to a bad situation for a number of years.

Overall Towman you make very good points about Offaly hurlin in the last post. Offaly need to get underage and senior club hurling strong again before we can challenge the top teams. Easier said than done but not impossible.

i think lads ye might be getting mixed up was it not back in the late 80's when offaly were winning a lot of underage and kilkenny has gone from 1981 to 1988 without a minor
all ireland title that Joe Hennessy,Noel Skehan,Ger&john Henderson set up a minor coaching school in kilkenny and remember soccer was very big in kilkenny city in the 80's
with lots of young lads playing it instead of hurling kilkenny city were going strong then maybe thats what ye are talking about don't think it was in 2000.

[Bord na Mona man]

I never heard of that one, but I know for definite how the results of 2000 were treated in Kilkenny by hurling people there.
It was probably a factor in them kicking on to win 7 All Irelands in minor and U21 in the following few years.

The point is Kilkenny acted swiftly to the alarm bells when there was evidence of standards dropping.
Offaly have been reaching for the snooze button with each alarm call.

- Another heavy defeat to Kilkenny...Ah well
- More defeats to Wexford...You can't win 'em all. Nothing to see here
- A row of defeats to Dublin...Ah shure we'd probably still beat them at senior
- Defeat to Westmeath...A bit unlucky
- A pair of defeats to Carlow...Arrah, who needs underage anyway

[townman]

I never heard of that one, but I know for definite how the results of 2000 were treated in Kilkenny by hurling people there.
It was probably a factor in them kicking on to win 7 All Irelands in minor and U21 in the following few years.

The point is Kilkenny acted swiftly to the alarm bells when there was evidence of standards dropping.
Offaly have been reaching for the snooze button with each alarm call.

- Another heavy defeat to Kilkenny...Ah well
- More defeats to Wexford...You can't win 'em all. Nothing to see here
- A row of defeats to Dublin...Ah shure we'd probably still beat them at senior
- Defeat to Westmeath...A bit unlucky
- A pair of defeats to Carlow...Arrah, who needs underage anyway

will my answer to them are as follows we are not good enough if we had the hurlers we would win, in the 80's and 90's we
didn't lose to say westmeath or carlows and had some great win over kilkenny, carlow are doing suppose to be doing great work
underage what have they done beaten a poor offaly minor team a few year's ago thats there lot.

Dublin fair enough 2 minor and 2 under 21' leinsters and in the league final of 2011 why because they have the hurler's
but in my opinion they are way off winning any all ireland,

yes another heavy defeat to kilkenny,more defeats to wexford, but have you looked at the bigger picture we are not good enough
take last years minors run unlucky again a poor wexford side that was showed after, i went to mullingar and we sneak home with two frees
at the end, kilkenny match in tullamore kilkenny didn't have to get out of first gear in all fairness kilkenny are good and when on to win it out.

i was in Nass 3 years ago when we played kildare in the minor hurling johnny pilkington was over them and bar we got 2 lucky goals kildare were near us
i knew there was no point going to wexford park to play wexford but i didn't there was no contest well beaten.

so my point is we have had Joe Cleary, Danny Owens,Johnny p, over the minor hurlers the last few years and we or they have failed so whos next
just going back to this year just to show you standards in hurling Drumcullen are senior this year, a junior team well junior winners last year in kilkenny
gave Drumcullen a lesson in how to hurl in the leinster final in rath.

right everyone agreeds that we need a change across the board and this has to be done and that has to be done but my point is if you haven't got the talent
you won't win in hurling. just the latest about only 12 turning up to train for the minor hurlers tells you what you need to know or lads walking off the field or panel
right lads will say a its who is over them or whos over them knows nothing about hurling or didn't hurl themselfs, what football did sean Boylan or eugene mcgee play.

Martin Dempsey has a big say in the team down in kilkenny and cody has often asked for his opinion on things ST Josephs man never pucked a ball in his life even doe his
mother comes from great hurling stock in offaly, my point is everyone one in offaly seem to blame the lads that put in the time to train or look after theses minor teams
but the old saying is true you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear, or Babs one Donkeys don't win Derbys, or another thing we are hearing o this lad wasn't picked on
the minor team or that fella was left off the team or this lad played senior with the club can't make the minor county team if they are good enough they will make the underage
county team's.

[old yellar]

Good post. The only thing I d say about talent and lack of, is that 18 years ago a bunch of chaps were born to mothers in both Kk and Offaly. 18 years on they ll maybe face each other on a pitch with kk firm favourites. What happens in the interviening 18 years? Surely some part of talent is fostered by the systems in place in the county and not just nature? God can't have decided to bless all Kk young lads with talent?!!

[Bord na Mona man]

will my answer to them are as follows we are not good enough if we had the hurlers we would win, in the 80's and 90's we
didn't lose to say westmeath or carlows and had some great win over kilkenny, carlow are doing suppose to be doing great work
underage what have they done beaten a poor offaly minor team a few year's ago thats there lot.

Dublin fair enough 2 minor and 2 under 21' leinsters and in the league final of 2011 why because they have the hurler's
but in my opinion they are way off winning any all ireland,

if you haven't got the talent you won't win in hurling.

So Offaly are faring worse and worse at underage because the talent and hurlers aren't there.

Carlow and Dublin have made strides because they've been putting in greater work at grassroots to develop hurling talent.

What Offaly might need to do to improve the standard of young hurler coming through is....is....

a) Sit on our arses and wait for "talent" to fall off trees at some future date!
b) Convince ourselves that the 80s and 90s were a blip and there is hardly any point in attempting to replicate
c) Improve the coaching, structures, standards. Modernise thinking and methods. Spread the game, get better people involved and develop talent better. In short work harder like other counties seem to be doing.

Its a tough one!

[Bord na Mona man]

Good post. The only thing I d say about talent and lack of, is that 18 years ago a bunch of chaps were born to mothers in both Kk and Offaly. 18 years on they ll maybe face each other on a pitch with kk firm favourites. What happens in the interviening 18 years? Surely some part of talent is fostered by the systems in place in the county and not just nature? God can't have decided to bless all Kk young lads with talent?!!

Correct, hurling talent is not some magical predisposition. Its a handy cop to suggest it is though.

[townman]

will my answer to them are as follows we are not good enough if we had the hurlers we would win, in the 80's and 90's we
didn't lose to say westmeath or carlows and had some great win over kilkenny, carlow are doing suppose to be doing great work
underage what have they done beaten a poor offaly minor team a few year's ago thats there lot.

Dublin fair enough 2 minor and 2 under 21' leinsters and in the league final of 2011 why because they have the hurler's
but in my opinion they are way off winning any all ireland,

if you haven't got the talent you won't win in hurling.

So Offaly are faring worse and worse at underage because the talent and hurlers aren't there.

Carlow and Dublin have made strides because they've been putting in greater work at grassroots to develop hurling talent.

What Offaly might need to do to improve the standard of young hurler coming through is....is....

a) Sit on our arses and wait for "talent" to fall off trees at some future date!
b) Convince ourselves that the 80s and 90s were a blip and there is hardly any point in attempting to replicate
c) Improve the coaching, structures, standards. Modernise thinking and methods. Spread the game, get better people involved and develop talent better. In short work harder like other counties seem to be doing.

Its a tough one!

yes offaly are falling behind at underage because the talent isn't there Carlow have made strides Dublin but neither have won all irelands at underage
i don't have the answers but i tell you something that i have notice in offaly towns and villages over the last few years. i was back home in Birr a few weeks
ago and we were just saying that you never see young lads going around with hurls anymore a friend was just saying his lads would rather watch chelsea or utd on
sky than watch offaly hurl and they were brought up watching offaly hurling and they still go to games in tullamore and theres more like them.

maybe its the schools ST.Brendans used to be the hot bed of underage hurling when was it the last time we won a leinster in schools hurling
was there more work put into offaly underage hurling in the 80's wouldn't say so there more camps and club days now than there ever was
maybe the christan brothers are gone school are mixed now . maybe the men that was over or trained minor team in the 80's will never be replaced
i trained under and watch pa joe whelean with teams the man had a great hurling brain, he hasn't many fans here but his record speaks for its self
but then again pa jo had talent to work with in offaly minors and Birr or Rynaghs teams he was over.

if he was over offaly minors or Birr or Rynaghs i bet he won't be able to bring them back to past winning days as the players are not there at them teams now
just on a last note its not just the hurling the footballers are out of the scene since 1982, last minor win 1964 leinster 1989, we might have got to heaps of leinster
finals but hadn't the talent to win them and after been in 4 or 5 leinster final in minor the last 9 years why are we still a divison 3 team you know why

[old yellar]

Nice post. I agree we and Dublin haven't won anything at underage, but the work does pay off. In dublins case you can pick a number of their senior players who have won college and Leinster minor/u21 titles. The systems they have in place are paying off. I know they ve a few blow INS too but most are homegrown. Dublin are on the rise no doubt and they are starting to make full use of the numbers the have too. Maybe Offaly will have to look at the split in the county and try get more hurlers from the "other" side of the county. Take mullinahone as an example of how clubs can evolve..