TheManFromFerbane wrote:
I'd probably suggest something like a champions league format with round robin and then knockout. Eight groups of three. Seeded if needs be. Every team guaranteed to get two matches. Groups are small enough so as not to interrupt the club championships and the winners head into a quarter-final.
Obviously there would have to be some tinkering around the edges but for me that makes most sense.
The main problem with that is that you're back into a system where one defeat would probably be enough to eliminate you, plus dead rubbers etc. We've all seen round robin structures throw up anomolies by times and it would be a matter of time before someone would have grounds for complaint.
My issue with the Bare Biffo's structure is that while it makes sense as a stand alone event, the problem is that the Christy Ring Cup means nothing unless it's a means to an end - we saw with the Tommy Murphy Cup how teams don't care unless they're playing for something meaningful, and if you relegate these competitions to little more than "shield" status, then teams will treat them as such.
Having said all that, I don't think I have any better ideas, so my contribution is of limited use!
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
MFF, I used to favour a Champions league style format but I think LS's pont about dead rubbers is valid and I think we should stick with straight forward leagues and knockouts as seperate competitions.
LS, in general I dont agree with your point about "shield" type competitions.
In hurling there will be no issue for the top eight who are contesting the Liam McCarthy anyway. The bottom 16 are contesting "shield" type competitions as it is anyway, as are half of the teams I would have put in the second 8 grouping.
I would only see a problem for maybe 3 or 4 counties, including Offaly, who think they should be competing at the highest level and see these competitions as being beneath them.
To my mind this is an attitute that needs to be routed out, Offaly have done nothing in the last 5/6 years in either game to back up such an attitude. Instead the attitude displayed by Wicklow is something that should be praised and copied.
If Offaly as a county are not interested in anything other than Liam Mc or Sam then so be it.
the bare biffo wrote:
LS, in general I dont agree with your point about "shield" type competitions.
In hurling there will be no issue for the top eight who are contesting the Liam McCarthy anyway. The bottom 16 are contesting "shield" type competitions as it is anyway, as are half of the teams I would have put in the second 8 grouping.
I would only see a problem for maybe 3 or 4 counties, including Offaly, who think they should be competing at the highest level and see these competitions as being beneath them.
To my mind this is an attitute that needs to be routed out, Offaly have done nothing in the last 5/6 years in either game to back up such an attitude. Instead the attitude displayed by Wicklow is something that should be praised and copied.
If Offaly as a county are not interested in anything other than Liam Mc or Sam then so be it.
I agree that the attitude is flawed, however it's there. The difference with the Ring/Rackard/Meaghar cups is that as they stand, they are the means to secure promotion to the next stage - in the absence of that carrot, I reckon that not alone Offaly but even the likes of Laois and Antrim might decide that they're not worth the effort.
I would wonder would games in Offaly (or other similar counties) be damaged even further by falling into this kind of limbo.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
'We'll lose half our team next year'
Offaly boss fears players will walk over relegation, writes Martin Breheny
By Martin Breheny
Thursday July 23 2009
AS many as half of the Offaly hurling team would be unavailable next summer if they were relegated from the Leinster and All-Ireland championships.
That's the grim prediction from manager Joe Dooley, who has made a late appeal to the GAA to find a way out of the relegation controversy which will see Offaly, Antrim, Clare or Wexford drop out of Liam McCarthy Cup and provincial contention.
Meanwhile, the counties involved are considering their position after meeting GAA President Christy Cooney and Director-General Paraic Duffy on Tuesday night. It's still possible that the case may be taken to the DRA either collectively by the four counties or individually by whichever is relegated after the play-offs.
While Croke Park are approaching it from a technical position as set out in rule, Dooley's appeal is based on the practical impact of losing one of this year's Liam McCarthy Cup teams.
"Whatever was decided at Congress, Special Congress or anywhere else, the key question is this: would hurling benefit from dropping one of those four counties down to Christy Ring Cup level next year?" said Dooley.
"I doubt if there's a single person in the GAA who would think that's the case. None of the four counties involved are trying to stop Carlow from being promoted. We just want to remain in the top flight and do our best to move up as high as we can."
He also warned that if Offaly were relegated, he would find it very difficult to motivate players at the start of 2010.
"It might be okay for the National League because we are in Division 1 but what then?" Dooley continues. "We could have an outstanding league against the country's top teams right up to April and then have to head for the Christy Ring Cup in May. I doubt very much if the players would buy into that.
"I suspect that as many as half of them would head off to the States or somewhere else for the summer if they couldn't compete in the Leinster and All-Ireland championships."
Dooley's call for a re-think comes days after Colm Bonnar predicted that relegation would have a disastrous impact on hurling in Wexford, leading to many players concentrating on football. Clare are also worried by the prospect of exclusion while Antrim are claiming that they were given a guarantee that they would be allowed to compete in Leinster for three years.
Cooney and Duffy met representatives from the four counties on Tuesday night where they outlined the GAA's position in detail. They contend that their hands are tied by motions passed at Special Congress last October and Annual Congress in April.
However, Dooley argues that when rules are seen to present problems, a mechanism should exist to sort out the problem.
"What about the rule of common sense? Take Offaly. We're third behind Kilkenny and Cork on the All-Ireland senior table over the past 30 years. We won two All-Irelands in the last 15 years, yet if the relegation scene goes against us we're out of Leinster and the All-Ireland. How can that be right?" he said.
"Clare won two All-Irelands and Wexford one over the last 14 years but one of them could be in trouble too. And how would it benefit Antrim hurling to drop back down to Christy Ring again? We should be trying to move as many counties as possible up to the top level."
Dooley also pointed out that the relegation games were seriously impinging on club activity. The situation was exacerbated by the GAA decision to defer the first two games by a week in order to consider their position, arising from complaints from the four counties involved.
"We lost in the qualifiers July 4 but we still haven't played a relegation game. The clubs are losing out in a big way," he said.
In normal circumstances, there would be a call for a Special Congress to consider the situation in October. However, that's not feasible due to the passing of a motion last April which decrees that a Special Congress (made up of restricted numbers) cannot change a decision reached by annual Congress.
"We keep hearing about rules and regulations," Dooley continues, "but how can anybody explain to hurlers who put their hearts and souls into what they're doing that it's in their best interests not to play in the provincial or All-Ireland championship?"
Clare and Wexford ponder boycott of relegation decider
By Jackie Cahill
Friday, July 24, 2009
GAA CHIEFS were last night faced with the nightmare scenario of Clare and Wexford players boycotting tomorrow’s All-Ireland SHC relegation playoff.
Both panels met last night to discuss their options but sources have revealed a growing air of militancy within the respective camps.
Clare captain Brian O’Connell admitted that the prospect of fighting relegation "doesn’t make any sense" while manager Mike McNamara has described the playoffs as a "fiasco".
McNamara also revealed that he only became aware of their existence minutes after exiting the championship to Galway.
O’Connell said: "I don’t know what the story is. It doesn’t make any sense to us at all, especially when they’re trying to promote the game. It just seems to me that the GAA make up rules as they go along and hope that the worst case scenario doesn’t happen."
Clare and Wexford players have been in close contact in recent days while Croke Park top brass have held firm during a series of meetings. The GAA remain determined to go ahead with the playoffs, despite opposition from the four counties involved.
Offaly and Antrim are due to meet in Parnell Park at 3pm tomorrow but the feeling of anger is far stronger in Clare and Wexford, who are due to lock horns in Portlaoise at 5pm. Wexford captain Diarmuid Lyng expressed the view that relegation could "kill" hurling in the county, as they struggle to compete with Gaelic Football and soccer.
Croke Park have issued the directive while county boards are trying to find a way out, if possible, while also aware that failing to fulfil the fixtures could result in them being thrown out of next year’s championship in any case.
McNamara said: "I’ve been instructed by the county board to present a team in Portlaoise at 5pm to represent Clare under the rules of the Association.
"I don’t see any way out of that and I must do the job that I have been entrusted to do by Clare county board."
McNamara revealed that he has not called his players together collectively since Clare exited the championship against Galway on July 11. He said: "Training sessions have to be organised and focussed but what’s the point with no focus?
"We don’t mind fighting a relegation battle if it was a proper thing but quite frankly, I knew nothing about this, and I’m good to keep up with things.
"I was thanking the players for their efforts during the year but I got a nudge saying that there’s a relegation battle.
"I asked (secretary) Pat Fitz if this was true and he got it confirmed.
"The whole thing is a fiasco and anybody with a shred of common sense would have shoved it back and if we have to have it next year, have it above board and up front.
"They have to restructure the championship because we’re now in this situation after playing Tipperary and Galway while other clashes wouldn’t compare at all."
McNamara, meanwhile, has insisted that he will remain in charge of Banner County in 2010 "while it is in the interests of Clare hurling".
Bord na Mona man wrote:Its a bit late to be kicking up now about relegation.
Counties should pay attention when the rules are being brought in.
People seemed to assume that Laois would go down.
This begs the question, if Antrim did follow the script and beat Laois, would Clare and Wexford be happily playing away their relegation game tomorrow so? Is it only the fact that Antrim have to be taken seriously that has them thinking like this?
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
I think Clare and Wexford are especially kicking up because one of them will be in a 'do-or-die' relegation final. One of them will risk getting caught on the day by Antrim (or Offaly). The severity of it only dawns on you when you are in the midst of it!
Offaly are in a slightly better position in that if they mess up against Antrim, they can still cop themselves on and win the final.
Either Clare or Wexford could hurl up a stormer tomorrow and still slide towards the relegation trap door.
Most teams probably thought the relegation issue would end up being fought out between Laois and Antrim.
The sudden bleatings about the 'future of hurling' from all the parties involved is disingenuous in my view.
No one would have given a hoot if either Antrim or Laois went down.
McNamara said that he knew nothing of this until after the Galway game even though he is "good to keep up with things". This is pure ignorance on Clares part thinking that they would never be involved in a relegation battle. Imagine the dressing rooms in Portlaoise before the game if news came through that Antrim had done the unthinkable and beaten us earlier in Parnell Park.
bula bula wrote:McNamara said that he knew nothing of this until after the Galway game even though he is "good to keep up with things". This is pure ignorance on Clares part thinking that they would never be involved in a relegation battle.
Mike Mac is on a real roll at the moment.
He got Offaly relegated to Division 2 in 2004, now he has gotten Clare relegated to Division 2 and possibly the Christy Ring Cup.
He's the ideal successor to Brian Cody!
The ones with the biggest justified grievance has to be Wexford. Compared to all the others, they actually won a match, beating us in the Leinster Quarterfinal. Their reward for that has been to get an even harder Qualifer draw than was even possible for us to get, i.e. against a corresponding semi-final loser in Munster. So even the Qualifiers were in two levels (semi-final losers in one group, lower round losers in another group) but with no benefit for the first lot over the second.
Whatever about the rights or wrongs of relegating any one of the remaining 4 teams, that inequality of treatment, pairings and lack of reward for actually winning a game has to require a change to the current format.
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After all that, there's a chance I might be able to go the game tomorrow. I've never been to Parnell Park before. I do know where it is, but not which way is best to come at it from in order to get to the Stand. I take it the Main Stand is on the Northern "Collins Ave" side. Is there any other access other than via the Clancarthy Road?
Peter Parker: I missed the part where that's MY problem.
The Biff wrote:
After all that, there's a chance I might be able to go the game tomorrow. I've never been to Parnell Park before. I do know where it is, but not which way is best to come at it from in order to get to the Stand. I take it the Main Stand is on the Northern "Collins Ave" side. Is there any other access other than via the Clancarthy Road?
You can get to it easy enough from Collins Ave East.
There is a laneway from that road that cuts to the ground and brings you in about midway along the back of the main stand.
With the floodlight pylons very visible all around the area, you won't lose your bearings.
I had this almost typed up and then I heard on the wireless that Clare and Wexford plan to boycott their match tomorrow. Seems relegation is only for the little people L
Time was when a trip to Dublin in the month of July to watch Offaly hurl meant a Leinster Final in Croke Park.
As if to emphasise how times have changed, Offaly head for Dublin in July, but now it’s for a relegation semi-final against Antrim for the second time in five years.
This time it’s serious. This time there can be no excuses – “we were in division two after all”, “Wexford is too far from home”, “Tullamore is too far from home”, “we’re a young team after all”, “the dog ate it”.
That Offaly are training for this and that they hurled Dublin in a challenge match since the Cork match is a good sign- a sign they are focussed and are geared up for this, which would have been difficult given the uncertainty which lasted almost a week when it seemed that the relegation series would be abandoned and the county championship would resume. Indeed, with Antrim threatening law and with Clare and Wexford now likely to boycott their match, it seems Offaly are the only ones looking to hurl their way out of the relegation series. Hopefully it works out for them.
With Clare and Wexford on the opposite side of the draw, Antrim is clearly the best draw Offaly could have hoped for. On the flip side, it’s also the best draw Antrim could have hoped for too. They love hurling against Offaly and a win here (and they will believe they can beat Offaly) would secure their top-division status for another year and save a costly argument with the DRA.
Comparisons with the league match in Tullamore last April are largely meaningless given that half the Antrim team who went down to Laois in Portlaoise three weeks ago didn’t line out in O’Connor Park in April.
As for the match itself, this can be divided into six distinct segments, three in each half lasting 10 to 15 minutes each, as Offaly – Antrim matches often are.
The score will be two scores apiece at the end of the first, then Offaly will pull clear in the second and perhaps lead something like 9-3 or 7-2 after 25 minutes. Antrim will finish the half the stronger and pull it back to 9-7 or thereabouts at half time.
Offaly will dominate the fourth segment, the first after the break. If Offaly are to win they will need to clock up the scores and put clear daylight between the sides and doubt in Antrim minds at this stage. Failure to do so will give Antrim a window of opportunity and if they are to win, it is in the middle of the second half that they will win it, overtaking Offaly on the scoreboard leaving Offaly floundering, unable to gain possession.
Obviously the final stage depends on how the fourth or fifth stages panned out. Here, it will either be Antrim pressing for the win with Offaly holding out, or Offaly chasing the game but unable to break Antrim down.
I expect Offaly to take the game by the scruff of the neck and win it, and win it convincingly.
Good win for the Faithful today. Antrim weren't up to much really.
The tone was set in the first minute, Kevin Brady pulled on a hopping ball around the middle of the field and it went all the way to the Antrim net.
Antrim matched Offaly for points for the first 10 minutes of so, but after that it turned into an Offaly precession.
At half time it was 1-15 to 0-8.
Offaly even had the luxury of tapping a penalty over in the 2nd half and it finished 1-28 to 0-13.
