Revolution not reform needed in underage hurling

[uibhfhailiabu]

I know that John Leahy worked as a coach with this year's minor team since they were aged 12. I think he might have been manager of Kilcormac/Killoughy when Tullamore shocked them in the county final.

He wasn't. He managed K/K from 2006 to 2008. Johnny Pilkington was K/K manager in 2009.

[old yellar]

aidan also managed galmoy in kilkenny for a year. they found him v good.. clubs need to look at what they do. i ve had the pleasure of being involved with my own county and its amazing how poor the coaching at club level is - my own club included eg probably 3 of the best chaps we have in the club are cack handers and it has greatly limited their chances at intercounty level. intercoounty managers can only work with what the are presented with. this includes attitude and talent. players also have to take on responsibility in how the prepare. certain clubs foster certain attitudes, some positive and some not so positive towards the county set up.. as for laois, well its only one year! we drew with them in the minor lge and both teams would be even enough and we would have loved a crack at them in leinster champ but thats another story! so what happens? we get leathered by dublin. they got lucky with the draw. in u21, they had a great win, but its just that. one win. read the laois and you ll see the negative vibes before the game. jayus even we ve beaten them in u21 in the last 3 years in there own backyard! so dont be getting over worried about the neighbours! dublin and kk are prob on a different level to the rest of leinster - i exclude galway and antrim. thens its ye and wexford. the rest of us are up and down at any given time. i dont think ye ll be able to challenge dub/kk in terms of potential to win in the coming years, but thats a reality facing us all!

[Plain of the Herbs]

Since when did Johnny Pilkington become a ‘hurling coordinator’? I see a new underage competition was unveiled at the recent County Board meeting which will drive Offaly hurling further and quicker back into the dark ages.

Yep, there will be special rules to promote rooting and poking in this tournament. Progressive stuff that Offaly are deficient in, like contesting the dropping ball, controlling the game, handling of the ball, handpassing, breaking the tackle, offering and an angled line of running and stuff progressive counties do will not be allowed, lest Offaly learn modern hurling.

Where Pilkington seems to come in is that he seems to be a coordinator of this initiative. Pat Cleary is in on this too.

Pilkington, you may remember, presided over Offaly Minor hurlers for two disastrous years. The second year ended with defeat to a progressive Westmeath team and on the journey home the management stopped the bus in Tullamore. Many of the hurlers (remember these are under 18) were left to thumb the rest of the way home. Several were playing Senior championship for their clubs the following day.

Pilkington was also interviewed on Radio3 last Sunday and asked for his comments on the Cork v Offaly Senior match which took place the previous evening. Pilkington felt the Offaly management didn’t introduce enough young players. He didn’t expand on that point and it seemed to me to be encouraging putting on young players for the sake of putting on young players. The irony that there being no-one under 22 years on the team and that Pilkington himself mismanaged the Offaly Minor team in 2008 and 2009 didn’t dawn on him.

In case there is anyone out there who thinks this type of hurling is to be encouraged, I would draw your attention to a new book The Godfather of Modern Hurling. It is Enda McEvoy’s biography of Fr Tommy Maher who coached Kilkenny between 1957 and 1977, a period in which they won seven All-Irelands, and is well worth a read. Dermot Healy was a disciple of Fr Maher and brought most of those ideas and methods to Offaly with him in 1980, with spectacular success.

From reading of Maher’s coaching methods, the Kilkenny cleric was more progressive in his outlook than Pilkington is now. Fr Maher was promoting the handpass in 1957. Imagine that!

Cremation or burial? That’s the only choice facing Offaly hurling now. It’s the underage hurlers I feel sorry for. Because they deserve better than to be sent out against progressive counties like Laois, Westmeath, Meath or Kildare, lambs to the slaughter, when they reach Minor level.

[joe bloggs]

Since when did Johnny Pilkington become a ‘hurling coordinator’? I see a new underage competition was unveiled at the recent County Board meeting which will drive Offaly hurling further and quicker back into the dark ages.

Yep, there will be special rules to promote rooting and poking in this tournament. Progressive stuff that Offaly are deficient in, like contesting the dropping ball, controlling the game, handling of the ball, handpassing, breaking the tackle, offering and an angled line of running and stuff progressive counties do will not be allowed, lest Offaly learn modern hurling.

Where Pilkington seems to come in is that he seems to be a coordinator of this initiative. Pat Cleary is in on this too.

Pilkington, you may remember, presided over Offaly Minor hurlers for two disastrous years. The second year ended with defeat to a progressive Westmeath team and on the journey home the management stopped the bus in Tullamore. Many of the hurlers (remember these are under 18) were left to thumb the rest of the way home. Several were playing Senior championship for their clubs the following day.

Pilkington was also interviewed on Radio3 last Sunday and asked for his comments on the Cork v Offaly Senior match which took place the previous evening. Pilkington felt the Offaly management didn’t introduce enough young players. He didn’t expand on that point and it seemed to me to be encouraging putting on young players for the sake of putting on young players. The irony that there being no-one under 22 years on the team and that Pilkington himself mismanaged the Offaly Minor team in 2008 and 2009 didn’t dawn on him.

In case there is anyone out there who thinks this type of hurling is to be encouraged, I would draw your attention to a new book The Godfather of Modern Hurling. It is Enda McEvoy’s biography of Fr Tommy Maher who coached Kilkenny between 1957 and 1977, a period in which they won seven All-Irelands, and is well worth a read. Dermot Healy was a disciple of Fr Maher and brought most of those ideas and methods to Offaly with him in 1980, with spectacular success.

From reading of Maher’s coaching methods, the Kilkenny cleric was more progressive in his outlook than Pilkington is now. Fr Maher was promoting the handpass in 1957. Imagine that!

Cremation or burial? That’s the only choice facing Offaly hurling now. It’s the underage hurlers I feel sorry for. Because they deserve better than to be sent out against progressive counties like Laois, Westmeath, Meath or Kildare, lambs to the slaughter, when they reach Minor level.

But sure don't you know the only way we will win is to lash the hell out of it

[Bord na Mona man]

In the 80s and 90s we won All Irelands by hurling along the ground.
We took puckouts and 65s off the ground. We drank pints and ate our dinners off the ground as well.
Once the other counties lose the knack of catching the ball and controlling possession, we'll bate the jaysus out of them on the ground again!

[Daleamar]

In the 80s and 90s we won All Irelands by hurling along the ground.
We took puckouts and 65s off the ground. We drank pints and ate our dinners off the ground as well.
Once the other counties lose the knack of catching the ball and controlling possession, we'll bate the jaysus out of them on the ground again!

ha ha, made me LOL.

I was part of the early stage of the county underage 'training' camps. We went to training. Did the usual training I had done with my own clubs. We did a few drills to warm up. Played a game then. The team as a whole was never told how they wanted us to play. I was never told how they wanted me to play. I never played one of these training games in my position. Looking back now it was a formality really. The managers/mentors had there team picked and this was all held just to show that the boys from the north of the county do get a chance. Well bring them down south and show them they arent good enough and they will have no complaints then. That is Offaly underage coaching, u16 and minor!

None the less, I enjoyed it, got to hurl with some good players. Was nice to be given the chance....... Although I learned absolutely nothing from it.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Thanks for that insight, Daleamar. We’ve never had any of those specifics stated on the site here before.

It shows the training squads are not doing what they were set up to do. Such squads were set up to enable the best young hurlers to develop along with hurlers (and footballers) of a similarly good standard. That isn’t happening. How many others are saying “I learned absolutely nothing from it” like Daleamar is.

Has anyone else out there any similar stories they would like to share with us? Or positive stories?

ha ha, made me LOL.

I was part of the early stage of the county underage 'training' camps. We went to training. Did the usual training I had done with my own clubs. We did a few drills to warm up. Played a game then. The team as a whole was never told how they wanted us to play. I was never told how they wanted me to play. I never played one of these training games in my position. Looking back now it was a formality really. The managers/mentors had there team picked and this was all held just to show that the boys from the north of the county do get a chance. Well bring them down south and show them they arent good enough and they will have no complaints then. That is Offaly underage coaching, u16 and minor!

None the less, I enjoyed it, got to hurl with some good players. Was nice to be given the chance....... Although I learned absolutely nothing from it.

[llkj]

What year were the squads set up?

[Plain of the Herbs]

Some time around 2005. Here's an extract from an interview Johnny Flaherty did with Diarmuid O'Flynn of the 'Daily Cork' just before the meltdown against Kilkenny that June

But things are changing in Offaly. We have a new chairman, one that’s willing to invest in hurling, and now the structures are in place. I’ve been put in charge of the underage, approached the members of the 80/81 team, and I got full co-operation. We have lovely young hurlers in Offaly, and lots of them. We had 45 U13 and 45 U15 at a training camp lately; I was watching them training one night, I just couldn’t believe what they were doing. I’m telling you, a year or two, we’ll be there with Kilkenny, we’ll have our underage organised.
http://www.uibhfhaili.com/articles/view ... .php?id=68

What year were the squads set up?

[Daleamar]

Johnny Flaherty and Ray Flannery were the head men in my time with the hurling development panels. Both are good men, love their hurling. They were great at teaching the basic skills of the game but never expanded on that.

[Bord na Mona man]

Some time around 2005. Here's an extract from an interview Johnny Flaherty did with Diarmuid O'Flynn of the 'Daily Cork' just before the meltdown against Kilkenny that June

But things are changing in Offaly. We have a new chairman, one that’s willing to invest in hurling, and now the structures are in place. I’ve been put in charge of the underage, approached the members of the 80/81 team, and I got full co-operation. We have lovely young hurlers in Offaly, and lots of them. We had 45 U13 and 45 U15 at a training camp lately; I was watching them training one night, I just couldn’t believe what they were doing. I’m telling you, a year or two, we’ll be there with Kilkenny, we’ll have our underage organised.
http://www.uibhfhaili.com/articles/view ... .php?id=68

What year were the squads set up?

We've been through some hard times, but at least we know that by 2007 we'll be back up with Kilkenny.

[Bord na Mona man]

Johnny Flaherty and Ray Flannery were the head men in my time with the hurling development panels. Both are good men, love their hurling. They were great at teaching the basic skills of the game but never expanded on that.

Interesting to hear.
As hurlers go, the ones Offaly produce tend to be right up with the best at the core technical skills, like striking off both sides, hitting the ball on the sweet spot, not getting hooked, hitting ball in tight spaces and back over the shoulder.

How do we move on from here to develop the more non-stickwork aspects of the game - positional play, tactical awareness, tackling, swarm defending, catching, handpassing, fixing tacklers and laying it off when in possession, basically all the things that have started to feature in hurling in the past 12-13 years?

[llkj]

My general experience of hurling with Offaly at underage (by underage, I include U 21 level too) mainly consisted of the following each year.

'The trial'
Someone contacts me to say that I am invited to a trial in Banager/Birr/whereever this Saturday at 11am. Be at GAA field and someone will pick you up.
Get to place. Sit in a dressing room with 40 other lads and have a chat to the lad beside me, as we await instruction.
Someone comes in and says ''jaysus lads, yer all very quiet. right here are the teams for the match". 30 names called out and the rest of ye are going to come in and out.
Go out onto the pitch. puck the ball around.
Match starts.
1/2 time comes. we go into the centre of the pitch, some changes are made to personnel by some mentor and we go back out for the 2nd half
match is over.
go back to the dressing room.

They either select the panel there or else the same thing happens at another trial the following week and a panel is picked.

Sometimes your best way to get on the panel is as follows:

Show up but don't tog out.
know a selector
play the game and dont pass the ball much. a ball cleared 20 yards over your shoulder down the line, is better than a 5 yard handpass to someone else to steal the glory.
have made the panel the year before - nailed on for the following year
dont show up at trials. If they want you they'll come for you

If you made the panel, then Preperation for tournaments (14,16) was mainly a couple of training sessions, which was essentially a couple of all in matches or maybe a couple of matches against other teams.

The day of the blitz/tournament, you went out and played away. A lot of the time, you were playing with some players that you hadn't seen all year and away you went. You got a meal after it and that was it for the year as everyone wondered why Offaly just don't have the players anymore.

In fairness, minor and U 21 were better than that, but the general premise was the same. Maybe more trials and definitely more time together after the panel was picked (more training, more practice, leinster league matches). Although, when I say 'panel', there was always about 2 or 3 starters come championship time, who would have maybe seen the rest of the group a couple of times all year.

I remember the advice the week of a Championship match against Dublin was that 'we are natural hurlers, they are manufactured hurlers or converted footballers... just go out and do it'... as the Dubs bet us by about 10 points I was wishing I was a manufactured hurler too.
After we are knocked out there would be no communication until 6 months later and the next notice for a trial came along

I can honestly say that playing with Offaly didn't do anything to my development as an athlete or teach me anything about trying to play the game at a high level.

[jimbob17]

Some time around 2005. Here's an extract from an interview Johnny Flaherty did with Diarmuid O'Flynn of the 'Daily Cork' just before the meltdown against Kilkenny that June

But things are changing in Offaly. We have a new chairman, one that’s willing to invest in hurling, and now the structures are in place. I’ve been put in charge of the underage, approached the members of the 80/81 team, and I got full co-operation. We have lovely young hurlers in Offaly, and lots of them. We had 45 U13 and 45 U15 at a training camp lately; I was watching them training one night, I just couldn’t believe what they were doing. I’m telling you, a year or two, we’ll be there with Kilkenny, we’ll have our underage organised.
http://www.uibhfhaili.com/articles/view ... .php?id=68

What year were the squads set up?

We've been through some hard times, but at least we know that by 2007 we'll be back up with Kilkenny.

hillarious to read this piece about how things were about to change drastically. If anything its gone so far backwards at underage from that point its unreal.

Interesting points likj and id have to agree with all of them having been involved myself. Never any team play methods with regard to modern game, never any intelligent instruction, never any development tips to improve athleticism or develop athleticism, Nothing on diet or nutrition. That said I never blamed the fellas over us at all as they were all well meaning and always had our interest at heart. I did blame the county board though for putting such people (who were often clueless) in place. It is very sad to say that it still continues to this day and if anything, the set ups below minor level are worse than they ever were from what ive heard from a good friend who has a son involved. They are getting trimmings in most games and the disorganisation around it is quite bad...So it looks like nothing much is going to improve in the near future and we are doomed to Christy Ring in my opinion once the present senior crop move on in 6 to 7 years time.

[durra1]

Great to hear contributions from lads who’ve been there etc. Shocking really considering its players from recent enough times and not back in the 80’s.

None of us who weren’t in those dressing rooms really suspected any different.

I’d be particularly dismayed if what jimbob17 reports about the present minor set up is true given Leahy has been appointed for another year.

I was hoping that it was a question of talent and not preparation / quality of coaching given these issues have been flagged for years now.

Liked llkj’s thoughts on:-

“play the game and don’t pass the ball much. a ball cleared 20 yards over your shoulder down the line, is better than a 5 yard hand pass to someone else to steal the glory.”

To be fair, there’s always a bit of glory hunting at trial games in all sports with lads doing what they want for themselves or playing their own clubmen into a game. That’s where strong willed, progressive, team-building minded coaching comes in.

A coach who will say “right lads, if I see lads are playing for themselves, they are off ”