Revolution not reform needed in underage hurling

[manfromdelmonte]

Firstly, the clubs and county have to work together to get proper structures.

People have to accept that there isn't money for lots of full time people, but the full time coaches have to get as much as possible in place for the volunteers to succeed. Stop moaning about what Westmeath, Carlow, Roscommon (football) or others are doing. They've had the forsight to do things - Offaly should emulate them and go even further.

Schools.
This is vital. The clubs that have a good link to their local primary school will have much greater chance of success.
Is there a coach going in? If no, why not? Do you expect the teachers to do it? The majority of whom are female and generally have very little interest. The players need to be out doing hurling from first class (at least)
identify the people in the club who have the time and ability to do this coaching. train them up, equip them (club gear, hurling gear) and the school (helmets, hurleys) and compensate them for their time (could be something as simple as a weekend away or mileage expenses)
notice board and info. make sure the kids and parents know it is the local club supplying the coaching and get the kids down to the club field
primary kids need games, games, games. not competitive games of school vs school but games where they get a chance to show and develop their skills

secondary school
the county board need to do so much more - gear, coaches
clubs either cannot rely on the secondary school to develop players. again many teachers do not have the interest. they might need to supply somebody to help out with a team or two in the school


Underage
underage in many clubs needs to be addressed.
you need the best coach in the club with the under 8s. train up the underage coaches - send them to coaching demos, courses. spend the money on the young players. not on a coach for the seniors.
how do we start out the kids? ground hurling and swing. this needs to change.
we need to promote the fundamental movement and motor skills that kids need using bean bags, plastic hurleys etc
once they have been improved then introduce specific skills

[tacmot]

hi, i havent been online in a while but was chatting to a parent who's son is on the county u15 development squad. He told me that last sat they were down in clara for a blitz. Offaly only had 14 players turn up!!!! They had to get a lad from clara to make up a team, they then had to play 3 game of 20 minutes a half i.e 2 hours of hurling without any subs. They havent got Any playing gear yet and could see Galway , wh0 had over 35 players present, taking the field with seperate training gear AND hurling gear for theie matches.
I didnt ask him how they got on in the games because when he told me that the pkayers weren't even fed after the games i decided to leave well enough alone.
Needless to say that this parent not to keen on driving his son to much more of that fiasco. Now taking that all this to be true, sumone correct me if in wrong, but IS THIS THE WAY TO DEVELOP HURLING. SUM ONE COULD BE CORRECT IN SAYING "christy ring cup here we come"

[Plain of the Herbs]

This is truly shocking.

hi, i havent been online in a while but was chatting to a parent who's son is on the county u15 development squad. He told me that last sat they were down in clara for a blitz. Offaly only had 14 players turn up!!!! They had to get a lad from clara to make up a team, they then had to play 3 game of 20 minutes a half i.e 2 hours of hurling without any subs. They havent got Any playing gear yet and could see Galway , wh0 had over 35 players present, taking the field with seperate training gear AND hurling gear for theie matches.
I didnt ask him how they got on in the games because when he told me that the pkayers weren't even fed after the games i decided to leave well enough alone.
Needless to say that this parent not to keen on driving his son to much more of that fiasco. Now taking that all this to be true, sumone correct me if in wrong, but IS THIS THE WAY TO DEVELOP HURLING. SUM ONE COULD BE CORRECT IN SAYING "christy ring cup here we come"

[joe bloggs]

I am led to believe that the development squads were told to cut down to 24 players recently so this is not surprising really. At this time of the year lads could be away on holidays or in the gaelteacht, or even just injured . It is crazy, not to have at least 30, as for training games you will only now have very small numbers, and this just to save a few quid.

[jimbob17]

I am led to believe that the development squads were told to cut down to 24 players recently so this is not surprising really. At this time of the year lads could be away on holidays or in the gaelteacht, or even just injured . It is crazy, not to have at least 30, as for training games you will only now have very small numbers, and this just to save a few quid.

I dont think the size of the panel affects finance much really only for maybe gear where they generally get a top shorts costing maybe 25 euro per head. That is a total of an extra 150 euro per squad approx. Not a whole pile given the money that was taken in last saturday in Tullamore. They tend to penny pinch at every turn. Ive said it before but they cant see beyond their nose and would rather piss 6 lads off per age group than encourage six lads to apply themselves at a higher level. I wouldnt imagine there are a whole lot of other costs involved, bar maybe a bit of food after a game which according to the poster above doesnt happen...A club team would be better organised.

as for the hurling in Clara, this is very disappointing to say the least. I wonder how they got on. A county team struggling for nos in July is a disgrace. Fellas should be ripping to make the team. It shows a clear lack of organisation imo and i have heard similar horror stories re the underage hurling squads that i wont divulge here. It seems to be more organisational than coaching and this stems from the top. Would you blame a father for not driving a lad from coolderry or somewhere when this is the type of organisation involved. It is sad to say it and ive been around the track on this. WE WILL BE HURLING CHRISTY RING IN 10 YEARS TIME if things are not drastically overhauled on the hurling front in the immediate future.

Id love to know where they are training and when exactly as id like to see a session and see what exactly is going on in developing these players. Who are over the teams and how are they performing in their matches v the likes of Wexford, Laoise, Dublin, Carlow Westmeath Galway Clare and Limerick etc. the big three would and should obviously be stronger ie Tipp Cork and KK.

That said, i have heard decent reports lately from some of the football squads dev teams with some good young players showing well. From what ive seen too at underage, Ferbane will be quite strong in 4/5 years at senior level and might come back to win some titles like the team of 20/30 years ago. It appears however that in this direction (Ferbane), players are neglecting hurling given their chance of success at the football. In fact Ferbane should have a right good minor hurling team this year but it might be held back from pushing on as players tend to focus more on football given the greater chance of success.

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

You speak a lot of sense Jimbob, but you refer to the money taken in in Tullamore last SAturday. Surely you understand that any money that is taken in is whisked off by whatever means to Central Council? Nothing to do with Offaly, we might get a very small percentage towards ground rent for the day or so.

However, on the central point of the development squads, especially hurling, this is terrible. However it does not surprise me, the motivation of kids to play gaelic games and the atitude of many parents is woeful. But the County board must try even harder now to ensure that we are doing everything to be seen in a positive light as regards the promotion of hurling or football. And by the looks of it the standards are falling back.
What about the Supporters club also? WHat role are they playing?
Personally, I think that the onus must fall on the clubs also. They should be encouraging their better players to attend development squads, and move around where the squads train and let the local clubs provide some food for them. I also think that clubs should make a contribution towards the gear that they get from the county as they are going to benefit from the extra coaching that the players get.

Lets face it, we have not paid out big money to Senior managers in the county and with the burden of paying off OConnor park, we are just breaking even.
I would like to see more money being pumped into underage, but lets face it, many of the hurling clubs, KK the exception, have generally performed poorly in pulling their weight with regard to selling the 100e tickets for OConnor park, which has led to more money coming from County coffers.
Would there be any merit in setting up an underage hurling development board? Thoughts?

[lusmagh]

Lets face it, we have not paid out big money to Senior managers in the county and with the burden of paying off OConnor park, we are just breaking even.
I would like to see more money being pumped into underage, but lets face it, many of the hurling clubs, KK the exception, have generally performed poorly in pulling their weight with regard to selling the 100e tickets for OConnor park, which has led to more money coming from County coffers.
Would there be any merit in setting up an underage hurling development board? Thoughts?

I'm not sure where you get your facts but the majority (over 90%) of the clubs have always sold their quota of €100 tickets. The same clubs now pay a levy to roughly the same amount as they would have contributed through selling the tickets, with the chance of winning something back now taken away. This amounts to clubs fundraising through their own usual methods and just handing the money to Offaly Co Board to pay the debt amassed on OCP. I'm not saying this is right or wrong but just explaining what actually happens.

The clubs host fixtures and feed back gate returns, the clubs sell tickets for inter-county games which brings a yield for the co board, the clubs support fund raising initiatives such as the 10k, the clubs provide their facilities (at their own cost) for county teams to train.

Offaly U14s are using our pitch twice a week for the month of August in preparation for the Tony Forristal which means us changing around our schedule to accommodate them but we're quite happy to do so to help out and I know of plenty of other clubs who are doing similiar to facilitate underage county squads.

The clubs are doing their share with regards to finances and much more.

[joe bloggs]

Lets face it, we have not paid out big money to Senior managers in the county and with the burden of paying off OConnor park, we are just breaking even.
I would like to see more money being pumped into underage, but lets face it, many of the hurling clubs, KK the exception, have generally performed poorly in pulling their weight with regard to selling the 100e tickets for OConnor park, which has led to more money coming from County coffers.
Would there be any merit in setting up an underage hurling development board? Thoughts?

I'm not sure where you get your facts but the majority (over 90%) of the clubs have always sold their quota of €100 tickets. The same clubs now pay a levy to roughly the same amount as they would have contributed through selling the tickets, with the chance of winning something back now taken away. This amounts to clubs fundraising through their own usual methods and just handing the money to Offaly Co Board to pay the debt amassed on OCP. I'm not saying this is right or wrong but just explaining what actually happens.

The clubs host fixtures and feed back gate returns, the clubs sell tickets for inter-county games which brings a yield for the co board, the clubs support fund raising initiatives such as the 10k, the clubs provide their facilities (at their own cost) for county teams to train.

Offaly U14s are using our pitch twice a week for the month of August in preparation for the Tony Forristal which means us changing around our schedule to accommodate them but quite happy to do so to help out and I know of plenty of other clubs who are doing similiar to facilitate underage county squads.

The clubs are doing their share with regards to finances and much more.

Well lusmagh. This lad was pulling facts out of thin air with regard to th draw. The clubs give plenty of support. A big problem in offalyis that when the kids go to play other counties they see how they are looking after their players and they compare that to what they are getting. The players need to feel that representing offaly be special but unfortunately that is not the case.
I was shocked a few years ago when I went down to watch the U16 team in the Tipp tournament and they didn't even have a physio or first aider with them

[Plain of the Herbs]

It’s time to go and look for that Bob Geldof quote about everything being shoddy and nothing working. The thing is that when young lads see that the whole thing is treated in such a shabby fashion they’re not going to commit. The ambition to be an Offaly hurler is going to die quick enough when they see that being an Offaly hurler isn’t really something to aspire to.

And all the moreso when they are probably being treated far better by their clubs, many of whom will have a positive outlook on progression, carry a winning mentality and where lads are expected to perform. Clubs might also promote a progressive style of hurling given that the county is (possibly) promoting an outdated style of root-and-poke.

I do take Joe Bloggs’ point about lads being away for the summer on holiday or in the Gaeltacht, and of course there is a life outside hurling. But surely the management could have ensured they would have a decent-sized panel at their disposal. To be short of numbers when playing at home is an embarrassment.

And there is no chance of a young hurler learning the nuances of a key position when a training match consists of 9-a-side.

Finally, and Joe Bloggs raised the point about the medical assistance on hand. I wonder what medical assistance was on hand at Clara, and elsewhere. Accidents do happen from time to time. A lack of sufficient experienced personnel could lead to issues of child neglect.

Finally, good to have ya back, Tacmot. What you posted reminds me of a story I heard from an underage tournament about 15 years ago. Offaly went, then as now, in their own clothes and met young hurlers from other counties proudly wearing their county’s uniform. The Offaly youths had, of course, been spun some cock-and-bull story of their uniform being in the post or something. On seeing this, yere own Mick Murray remarked – Offaly will have to write OFFALY across their foreheads to identify themselves. Sad.

hi, i havent been online in a while but was chatting to a parent who's son is on the county u15 development squad. He told me that last sat they were down in clara for a blitz. Offaly only had 14 players turn up!!!! They had to get a lad from clara to make up a team, they then had to play 3 game of 20 minutes a half i.e 2 hours of hurling without any subs. They havent got Any playing gear yet and could see Galway , wh0 had over 35 players present, taking the field with seperate training gear AND hurling gear for theie matches.
I didnt ask him how they got on in the games because when he told me that the pkayers weren't even fed after the games i decided to leave well enough alone.
Needless to say that this parent not to keen on driving his son to much more of that fiasco. Now taking that all this to be true, sumone correct me if in wrong, but IS THIS THE WAY TO DEVELOP HURLING. SUM ONE COULD BE CORRECT IN SAYING "christy ring cup here we come"

[Bord na Mona man]

I have to agree with the points above. The few bob saved by penny-pinching probably does greater damage to the county in the long run by the perception it gives off. It makes Offaly look like a Mickey Mouse operation when compared to other counties. Players, no matter what age aren't stupid and will pick up on it.

When gear is given out late and begrudgingly it creates resentment. I know the county board argument has been that they don't want to give out the stuff early to lads who might then drop off panels,

I know that money is in short supply, but bring through a generation of properly schooled, prepared and successful players and there'll be a lot more money rolling into the county coffers.

[Bord na Mona man]

This article in the Offaly Indo might be of interest.

Published: Friday, 27th July, 2012 1:12pm
Can 'back to the future' approach bear fruit for Offaly hurling?

If there is one thing it's easy to agree on, it's that something has gone horribly wrong within Offaly hurling at underage level.

The senior team might be holding their ground at the fringes of the top ten and the senior ladies are breaking new ground with every passing week, so at adult level, there are some positive aspects to the current state of affairs, something that can't be said about the county's football counterparts. However once we look closer at the state of underage games, hurling is clearly the poor relation of the two codes. Under-21 and minor results have been appalling for several years while, at academy level, the stated goal of competitiveness against representative sides from Kilkenny and Dublin looks to be as distant as ever.

The advent of an under-13 "First Time Hurling" tournament is one step that has been taken and Offaly Coaching Officer Pat Cleary spoke to the Offaly Independent about the tournament, which is being run in memory of the late Colin Dunne of Shamrocks, and what he hopes it will achieve.

"When Offaly were successful in the 1980s and 1990s, we did so playing a fast brand of hurling, moving the ball quickly and into space. A lot of people think we should never have gone away from that, so we're trying to move back in that direction. We want to do something meaningful and while a lot of people have talked about trying to return to what was the traditional style of hurling, not a lot has been done in that regard. Hopefully this will be the first step in the right direction".

Stylish ground hurlers like Johnny Pilkington were always central to this particular style of play and the Birr midfielder is now a big part of the drive to implement this new style as the county's hurling co-ordinator. Cleary also feels that some inspiration should be taken from the Birr club teams that won All-Irelands when using this approach, with Pilkington at the heart of their team.

"Birr won four club All-Irelands playing a fast and economical brand of hurling and some of those were quite recent. This style has always worked for Offaly since Dermot Healy first implemented it and we still feel that it's the best way of beating Kilkenny teams. Even when Galway were successful, I feel their best games coincided with when Joe Cooney was playing at centre-forward. He brought other players into the game and moved the ball, instead of carrying it as was normally the Galway method."

At a time when other counties are studying the game and employing completely different tactics based on securing and retaining possession, it's an extremely courageous and potentially risky tactic to be gambling on a style that hasn't really worked at senior inter-county level for a long time. Dublin and Tipperary both actively discourage first time or ground hurling at academy level, instead asking players to concentrate on the basics of first, getting control of the sliotar, before finding either a colleague or the goalposts with every delivery.

Other counties have also completely changed their approach. Clare handpassed the sliotar more than they struck it with the hurl this year, and while teams like Galway and Tipperary play a more direct style, every pass is still aimed at the hand of a colleague. Most inter-county players would argue that space is at a premium now due to increased levels of fitness, but Cleary's view is that Offaly need to get back to using space.

"It's not that we want to see lads blindly hitting the ball along the ground to a player on the opposite team. This endeavour is not about ground hurling, it's about fast hurling. We accept that it will take a while for players to get used to it, but our view is that if the ball is moved quickly and into space, there won't be as much bunching and it won't be as important which team is bigger or stronger.

"We still want our lads to attack the ball and to win it, but we want them to move it quickly as soon as they get it. I know every other county is going one way at the moment with more and more emphasis on strength and conditioning and they can do that if they want. It's not that we're ignoring strength and conditioning either - that's very much part of our plan. However the policy we've taken in coaching and games is to do something a little bit more distinctive and to get back to the approach that suits Offaly best."

On the face of it, there is merit in the idea of trying to identify what tactical approach will beat sides like Kilkenny and Dublin in Leinster instead of just mimicking what they do.

However, at a time when the rules of the game are being interpreted very liberally, with a lot of advantage being played in the spirit of "letting the game flow", any approach that prioritises the area of the field where action takes place as opposed to who is in control of the sliotar at any time is always going to be high risk.

Offaly's success in the '80s and '90s came at a time when technical fouls like illegal handpasses and overcarrying were immediately punished, and when scores from long range were occasional rather than frequent. The new lighter ball has resulted in midfielders and half-backs popping over points from halfway, so conceding possession anywhere outside of the opposition '45 means that you could concede a score instantly. All of these factors have fed into counties developing their current tactical systems and policies.

Only time will tell if the "back to the future" approach being deployed in Offaly is capable of bucking that trend.

http://www.offalyindependent.ie/sport/r ... ing-/print

[DAF]

Is referring to what Joe Cooney did back in the 80's really relevant to modern day hurling.

Surely if other teams are putting an empasis on keeping possession of the ball it means with us planning to play fast and loose with the ball we will concede alot of possession the opposition wont concede much possession and will therefore have way more chances to get scores than us.

One of our half back pulled on the ball late in the game against Dublin last year when there was only a score in it and conceding pssession.a bit more patience and he could have puicked up the ball andstarted an attack

[Plain of the Herbs]

To take these points in order . . .

Is referring to what Joe Cooney did back in the 80's really relevant to modern day hurling.

Not in the least. Anyway, Cooney's Galway were the original 'Jennet Express'.

Surely if other teams are putting an empasis on keeping possession of the ball it means with us planning to play fast and loose with the ball we will concede alot of possession the opposition wont concede much possession and will therefore have way more chances to get scores than us.

That is correct. Successful ground hurling depends on the opposition doing likewise. Never gonna happen.

One of our half back pulled on the ball late in the game against Dublin last year when there was only a score in it and conceding pssession.a bit more patience and he could have puicked up the ball andstarted an attack

Exactly. The half-back on the ball needed someone to make a run in support. Playing a game of 'see how far you can hit it on the ground' will not coach proper support-play.

Cleary is raving here.

[Bord na Mona man]

I can see the argument for trying to open up the game and move the ball into space.
However it is still mostly going to be a 50-50 ball into space. So half the time all you'll be doing is gifting the Kilkenny or Tipp player with that same space to do as he wishes with the ball.

I don't mind players learning how to hit the ball along he ground. But it's a 5% skill at most, the equivalent of being able to chest or backheel the ball in soccer perhaps.
But the problem is, the driver behind it in Offaly seems to complete lack of appreciation for the value of possession.

The split second yield you might earn in whipping on the ball as opposed to rising it is undone by
a) The far greater chance of misdirecting it.
b) The far greater chance of scuffing it short.
c) The far less opportunity to actually scan the field - lets face it more often than not these pulls are hit in hopes.

An intelligent player who has been thought all the armoury of hurling skills will know when to use which stroke.
Drilling it into players that we are in Offaly are doomed to be sh1te at most of the core skills and this is the 'get out' is hardly inspiring!

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

I'm not sure where you get your facts but the majority (over 90%) of the clubs have always sold their quota of €100 tickets. The same clubs now pay a levy to roughly the same amount as they would have contributed through selling the tickets, with the chance of winning something back now taken away. This amounts to clubs fundraising through their own usual methods and just handing the money to Offaly Co Board to pay the debt amassed on OCP. I'm not saying this is right or wrong but just explaining what actually happens.

The clubs host fixtures and feed back gate returns, the clubs sell tickets for inter-county games which brings a yield for the co board, the clubs support fund raising initiatives such as the 10k, the clubs provide their facilities (at their own cost) for county teams to train.

**Many of the hurling clubs did not sell their full allocation, FACT
**Many clubs do not return gate receipts FACT, (and ultimately the main reason matches have been taken out of Birr was the poor gate returns, FACT
**Clubs sell tickets for Intercounty games which yields a return( utter rubbish, people buy tickets for Inter county games, one of the few perks of paying your membership to a club is that the club secretary can order tickets for you, this revenue goes back to Leinster, or Central council
**The 10k was a CB initiative to encourage clubs to fundraise through fitness efforts for the County and club.

Who in the name of the Lord do you think is going to pay the debt? Its our ground, we need to pay for it, same as the county teams , (including the u14s are our clubmen and women) and we either need to give over our pitches or incurr even more debt developing training grounds!