Fall from grace and the importance of next manager.

[Jolly Roger]

Offaly is renowned countrywide for it's spirit and never say die attitude, I'm thinking '82 against Kerry, '94 against Limerick, '97 Meath, '98 Clare and Kilkenny, '00 Cork in all Ireland hurling semi final, to name but a few. Whilst some argue that luck and being in the right place at the right time were crucial to some of that success, it would be an injustice to the great players that plied there trade with the green white and gold to say that it was the only factor involved but they too would agree that skill alone whilst it can win a game is no substitude for attitude which invariably will win you a game.

Sadly that spirit is gone, as suggested by the list above there are very few epic Offaly performances to regale about over he last 7/8 years. Where has that spirit gone. Bottled up and kept for a rainy day? There is a lot of speculaion about the next offaly manager. Many are plumping big names, in the majority outside the county. I feel if offaly is to return to glory then it is imperative they appoint someone from within. The hurlers have done this with Joe Dooley and but for a little more experience and bit less tiredness in the legs they could still be playing this summer.

I point to Cork and to Kerry who would never ever look outside there own county. Cork in particular is very proud and would never dream of letting a blow in take over for fear he would lead them to a downfall from which there is no return. Billy Morgan, Lar Tompkins, Donal O' Grady all proud Cork men would never allow someone from another county take control but just as true they would be at equal unease in another couny's hotseat.

Offaly need someone from within, a man of presence, no crap, no ego to fulfil, of ambition and belief in his men. Surely that person must exist from the Offay teams of days gone by. They might need to be coaxed frm the fence and given assurance by the powers that be on the county board of a realistic tim frame but without doubt that person exists and must be brouht to the fore.

I look forward to seeing who you think that person should be!

[gutless08]

GOOD POST jolly roger. you make sum good points about the spirit lacking in offaly in recent times.
With the wealth of hurlers and footballers and all ireland winners in counties like cork , kilkenny , kerry it isnt hard too find managers with a few all ireland medals and they all want a shot at success.
Joe Dooley has done very well indeed, joe is a holder of three all ireland medals and commands great respect though.
However as ive posted before im in favour of a big name manager from outside the county from a list of kernan to tommy carr or as i very wise friend said recently how bout mickey moran?.
i think we need a fresh approach and a manager the players look up too,a manager strong on discipline.
Just look at offalys record down the years, how many of our all irelands were won by managers from within the county.
speculate to accumalate, if the performances improve the turnstiles will improve as under lyons.

[bula bula]

I would definitely be in favour of appointing a management team from within the county. The only reason I see an outsider being a good choice would be for a short term and it would have to be a high profile appointment just to give foootball in the county a boost that it badly needs. I read an article the other day where it showed the importance of a manager being from the county itself. Of the 12 teams left in the football only Wexford and Kildare have outside managers while Waterford are the only team left in the hurling. Maybe not really significant but still a little interesting.

[the bare biffo]

I think you might have the cart before the horse there. I would say the bigger more succesful counties have home grown managers because they are more likely to produce more individuals inhouse with thw ability and experience. I dont think they are more succesful because they have a home grown manager necessarily.

I donrt know who a good appointment would be, but the county board need to get this one right. Since T Lyons the board have had as big a hand as anyone in fucking up the managerial appointments. They can not afford another one. Mayhbe they should take a leaf out of John Delaneys book and pass the buck.

Just an aside, if you look back at Offaly's success down the years you come across Tommy Lyons, Eugene McGee, Fr Tom Gilhooly, Michael Bond, Eamonn Cregan, Dermot Healy and of course Bro. Dennis is legendary. I don't know if Fr Tom was a native, but all the rest were from outside the county.

[gutless08]

I think you might have the cart before the horse there. I would say the bigger more succesful counties have home grown managers because they are more likely to produce more individuals inhouse with thw ability and experience. I dont think they are more succesful because they have a home grown manager necessarily.

.

couldnt agree more, great comment

[TheManFromFerbane]

I have an idea about this. I think when a county is successful, that generation of youngsters usually grow up to be successful themselves.

A footballer of 25 on the Offaly football team of '97/'98 would have been 10 in 1982. A minor of now a days would have been 8 in '97/'98 and we now have had about 5 years of really solid minor teams.

I don't think this is a coincidence. They would have played more football because it was fashionable, they would have the self belief of seeing their team win and they would be more likely to stick it out because they remember the good times and aren't as likely to throw their hat at it.

That's why the likes of Kerry are so good. Every generation believes they could and should win, whereas the likes of Fermanagh find it so hard to get that first one. They don't have those memories, they don't have the belief. But if they could just win that one then it might set them up for a bit of prolonged success.

The import thing is that when it's your "turn" you don't miss it, because then you're right back to step one.

Feel free to provide many examples where I am wrong!

[Jolly Roger]

Themanfromferbane makes an excellent point about success rubbing off onto the next generation just by being there and feeling that atmosphere and thus gaining the belief that it can be done. But this is not strictly true in all cases.

There are infinite examples of good underage teams that flourished without success in their county as a precursor e.g. wmeath minor footballers in 95 where I am informed not even one was in he squad in 2004 when they won senior leinster and even the Irish underage soccer teams that won euro champs in the late 90's where many of these players have even left the game. In both these cases success came without much success beforehand, rather good man management and indeed good players, for there age, who had belief. So while It is true what themanfromferbane says : that counties must bank in on their success as and when it comes and while it may be the case that occassional out of the blue success can be achieved at senior level e.g. Sligo in connacht last year or even Offaly reaching leinster decider in 06, it goes to show two things the importance of underage and ensuring that any success is nurtured at senior level by a good man manager.

Winning can become a habit and as with any habit that feels right, it can be hard to kick.

[Bord na Mona man]

Traditionally Offaly teams haven't thrived with Offaly managers.

In hurling there was perhaps a lack of people within the county who could coach the more refined skills of the game.
People like Brother Denis and Diarmuid Healy brought in much needed skills coaching when the Offaly style was lacking in the finer skills of the game.

This was probably the case in football too. I wouldn't be certain as to state of play of the 60s and 70s, but by accounts Offaly's style was uncompromising in the early days but then benefited from a more astute coaching.

There is also a tendency for Offaly people, players and the county board to turn on their own managers quicker than an outsider.
Paul O'Kelly, Kevin Kilmurray, Pat Fleury, Pat Joe Whelahan would all have encountered aspects of this.
Outside managers like John McIntyre and Pat Roe probably escaped the heat a little better than an Offaly man would have.

An outside manager is usually unknown and can't as easily be pinned with accusations of club bias and can perhaps work better with that little bit of unfamiliarity.

I think what Joe Dooley has shown is that a passionate Offaly man can get the players performing with determination and fire.
Previously outside managers like Tom Fogarty, Mike Mc and John McIntyre worked with the same players but never managed to send out an Offaly team onto the field fired up. They may have all done the preparation by the book, but there was never an Offaly performance of real passion under their watch. In fact the last hurling performance worthy of the jersey was delivered in 2000 under Pat Fleury.

Take Ger Loughnane. He was driven to the point of lunacy in his drive to bring his native Clare to the promised land. This was missing from his tenure in Galway and the results reflected this.

Outside managers work best in counties where there are skills and knowledge deficit (most hurling counties) or bitter internal rivalries (Wicklow for example). I think where Offaly are at the moment, we need managers to get the teams playing with real passion. This is seriously lacking in the footballers, but has returned to the hurlers. That's why I would have a preference for an Offaly man to manage the footballers next year.

[azoffaly]

There are infinite examples of good underage teams that flourished without success in their county as a precursor e.g. wmeath minor footballers in 95 where I am informed not even one was in he squad in 2004

That's not right anyway, because the cousin was captain of the minors in 1995, and he won a Leinster medal on 2004. He might have been the only survivor. The guts of that team game from the under 21s in the late 90s.

[TheManFromFerbane]

There are infinite examples of good underage teams that flourished without success in their county as a precursor

Yep no doubt that this is true but what I was trying to get at was that it gives a great mental boost to know you have done it before or that your county has a tradition of doing it.

[SearingDrive]

Jolly Roger includes Lar Tompkins as a Corkman in his post. He is actually a Kildare man who moved to Cork, and won the 1990 SF All Ireland. The larger counties are naturally more likely to find succesful managers in their own ranks, given they will win more than the smaller counties.
I am of the opinion that an outsider is the best bet for Offaly footballers, Kevin Kilmurray would be a hero to many in Offaly , yet he was dogged by detractors and rumours of player unhappiness. He still got Offaly to a Leinster Final in 2006 first since 1997.

Re Paul Galvin, I have not met anyone whon feels he should have had his sentence reduced, but the DRA have ruled and that is the end of it.

[Jolly Roger]

Searing drive is correct on Lar tompkins, although it was only the oter nite that I saw him take on Colm Quinn from offaly in some free taking competition on RTE's 'The Road to Croker' and he wore a cork jersey, I guess that was stuck in my mind at the time of the post. I do remember something about a falling out with Kildare, but deffo that is where he is originally from.

Azo offaly also clarifies my misake on the westmeath minors in 95. I think that was Damien Gavin. Good player in his time.

Themanfromferbane makes the good point on the the fact that weaker counties need outside help to progress as the calibre of manager with a winning mentality might not alaways exist from within. I guess there are two types of manager that can come into a county, (1) those that feel they are merely there to stabilise and avoid humilation to greater teams and (2) those that are brought in to finish off a job following on from underage success or even a decent few years of senior displays.
For offaly to move into category two would mean greater input into the bedrock of the GAA i.e. youth. Successful minor teams and u21 as offaly have produced to a not so bad standard recently, as well as schools and colleges football can both help. A greater respect for club championships will also garner support and indeed the fans are another criical element in turning offaly's fortunes around.

For now, offaly are in limbo, decent players but no spirit. Even the jump to division 3 is not going to entice a top class outside manager who might feel his job is stuck within category 1 as stated above. No point in paying money to him either if he felt that way. A inside man is not o persecute himself by taking the job at this time unless he is given everything he wants and more. It is a largely catch 22 situation as they say. Time may prove the best action in this case with success at underage the best cure.