Offaly V Carlow

[the bare biffo]

From Hogan Stand :

Offaly (NFL v Carlow) - P Kelly; E Byrne, J Quinn, N Grennan; P McConway, S Sullivan, K Slattery; C McManus, A McNamee; S Brady, N McNamee, S Ryan; J Coughlan, N Coughlan, K Casey.

Nothing really unexpected here based on what happened last week, except maybe Kelly in for Meehan. I assume there is some sort of rotation policy here for the keepers.

Personally would prefer Brady in defense with Kellaghan brought in up front but..........

Hope there's a bit of a turnaround in this game.

[Bogman]

I'm guessing Ger Rafferty loses out through injury or perhaps considered a little over-physical e.g Leitrim's winning free from Ger's shoulder on Leitrim Forward. I think he is unlucky. I'm a great fan of Byrne but at half back.

Roe is obviously impressed by the displays of Sean Ryan and Paul McConway last Sunday - I totally agree with him on these selections.

I am very struck by the honesty of the manager's after match reflections. Always well worth the read in the local papers on Wednesday. This time he said that they'll have to look at how they deliver the ball into the attack. I'll be interested to see if there's any change on Sunday with Niall playing centre forward. If it's like the end of Sunday's match all the ball will be played up to Neville for him to win and lay off to runners.

At least with Roe you can see logic to his approach. It'll be interesting to see how it gels on Sunday.

[Lone Shark]

I'm a little more impressed with this selection, but still question marks.

(1) I don't believe in rotating keepers - for a position that's so much about confidence, chopping and changing is not good. If he want's to give Meehan a run, he should give him just that - a run. Not a game.

(2) There could be different reasons for the Eoin Byrne to corner back idea. If it's a horses for courses decision since he'd be that bit quicker to keep and eye on Simon Rea, I've no problem with that. Personally I wouldn't have done it since it leaves the back line a bit short on physicality, but I'd be happy to see how it pans out.

(3) McConway has never had a bad game in an Offaly shirt, and since I'm a firm believer in you should be allowed to play your way off the team, I'm happy to see him back in there. His defensive instincts alongside two more attacking players is no harm either.

(4) We've a lot more actual forwards in there now, and it's not as hard to see where scores will come from. Last week Niall did all we expect, but Tommo had a bad day, and there was no other heavy scorer there. Now we have three scorers plus two more that will chip in. I don't love Niall at centre forward, but it seems that's the way it's going, so let's give it a go and see how it works out.

[black and red exile]

Spot on LS. This idea of rotating keepers is crazy and unnecessary. Kevin Meehan did nothing wrong last Sunday, he did everything that was asked of him, his handling was excellent, his vision superb, everytime he got possesion he found a tri-colour jersey, most notably Ciaran McManus, and even his kick outs have improved big time since last year so this rotating crap just does'nt wash. I would love to know any other county manager who rotates his goalkeepers in a very important league campaign for no reason whatsoever.
While Im in mid whinge, is it not obvious that Scott is not comfortable at half forward after last Sunday's display.I honestly expected to see him back in his old centre back position with Shane given a rest after his nightmare in Cloone, and surely you've got to have Niall in the full forward line where he can cause havoc. Having him out in the half forward line takes him way too deep where he tends, like most modern centre forwards, to end up in his own full back line receiving the ball which happened on one or two occasions last Sunday which no doubt gives the opposition great heart to see him so far away and very little threat to the scoreboard operator. Lets hope all these changes don't come back to haunt our new boss. We will probably get away with it on Sunday but against better opposition I fear we will hit a wall.

[Lone Shark]

There's a lot of ifs and buts here. James Coughlan had a fun day at the office giving the Carlow backs the run around for Athlone IT in the O'Byrne shield a few weeks ago, so maybe a second run at them in the county colours will bring his confidence back. Again, my concern here is that like in the Eoin Byrne decision, maybe I'm giving the management too much credit?

Saying all that, I still expect Niall to be wearing 13, 14 or 15 come the championship. It's all very well getting him involved in general play, but there's a lot of guys I'd prefer to see involved in general play, and I'd certainly much prefer to see our blue chip scorer in around the danger area.

Incidentally I was trying to think of scorers who became good "middle of the field" players as time went on - I'm struggling to think of many. Good footballers look good wherever they play, but it's hard to think of a dangerous corner forward who replicated that good form out the field, notwithstanding all time greats like Fitzmaurice or our own Matt who'd look good even if they were playing in goals.

[The Magpie]

Agreed. You'll struggle to come up with many top-class scorers that were ever converted into anything else.
The simple explanation for this is this: Most good footballers can play in several positions, but the natural gift for scoring is rare. Top-class scorers are so hard to find, that they just don't get 'tried-out' anywhere else on the field - it's a sin to waste them anywhere else.

The only one I can think of is Dion Dublin

[Bord na Mona man]

A top class scorer on the full forward line is only as good as the supply he gets. With Deehan, Casey and James Coughlan, we at least have a few options for corner forwards.
However our half forward line is short on scorers and play makers. Niall has shown in recent matches shown he can score from distance and create also. He should be looked at as a centre forward on this basis.

If Mayo left Ciaran McDonald at corner forward for his entire career on the ascertion that he began his career as a great scorer, would they have gotten to their last two All Irelands? Henry Shefflin started as a scoring corner forward, but this never deemed that he should spend the rest of his career there.

Niall spent the first half at corner forward last Sunday and was bottled up as Offaly didn't supply quick and early ball to him. In the second half in a more withdrawn role, he gave an exhibition, scored a bag load of points from serious distance and also contributed a lot from open play. He shouldn't be restricted to one role on the basis of how he performed as an 18 or 19 year old.

[Lone Shark]

If Mayo left Ciaran McDonald at corner forward for his entire career on the ascertion that he began his career as a great scorer, would they have gotten to their last two All Irelands? Henry Shefflin started as a scoring corner forward, but this never deemed that he should spend the rest of his career there.

Hurling is a different game, where you often find scorers on the half forward line, I wouldn't mind that. Likewise McDonald was always talented but rarely prolific. He had a different profile.

All that said, I'm not saying that it shouldn't be tried, merely that I don't believe it will work, but I'll be happy to be convinced otherwise.

[Bord na Mona man]

The differences beween the sports is moot and footballers can also score from the half forward line. The question is, would Mayo have been better off leaving McDonald as a corner forward for his entire career, ditto Shefflin? Or was it case of more imaginative team selection that located a more influential position for them?

I'm against the notion that you pigeon hole someone in a particular position based on how they perform at 18 years of age and hang on to assumptions about their capabilities for the rest of their career. Any manager worth their salt will try and develop a talent like Niall's into a play maker as well as score taker. So far this year it has been justified and perhaps within the next couple of years we'll know what his best role is for Offaly.

If Offaly are playing Dublin this summer and the ball isn't crossing the '45, having Niall standing around the goal is as useful to us as teats on a bull. And if no one has thought to develop his all round capabilities, because he is an "inside forward" and shall never be anything else, then we're leaving our best asset as a hostage to fortune.

[Lone Shark]

The differences beween the sports is moot and footballers can also score from the half forward line. The question is, would Mayo have been better off leaving McDonald as a corner forward for his entire career, ditto Shefflin? Or was it case of more imaginative team selection that located a more influential position for them?

Ara come off it, in modern football there isn't a half forward line in Ireland that regularly gets four scores from play in a game, and it's a poor full forward line that doesn't get that every match. Hurling is completely different because everything up to halfway is scoring zone, plus your half forwards are now primary ball winners, so it makes sense to play your best all round players there. Half forwards in football are not scorers, and with the exception of McDonald (who is the exception to pretty much every rule in football) and possibly McGuigan, there isn't a half forward in Ireland who would count as being among the most influential players on their team.

As for the McDonald example, he was never prolific, and nor was he established as a corner forward for very long.

I'm against the notion that you pigeon hole someone in a particular position based on how they perform at 18 years of age and hang on to assumptions about their capabilities for the rest of their career. Any manager worth their salt will try and develop a talent like Niall's into a play maker as well as score taker. So far this year it has been justified and perhaps within the next couple of years we'll know what his best role is for Offaly.

Niall made his debut at 18 in 2003 and has had three years in the Offaly senior team since then, two good ones playing in the full forward line and one poor one when playing in the half forward line. It's not like this has been untried. Once again, I'm not saying don't try it, but I'm curious as to why it hasn't been tried with Cooper, Mike Frank, James Masters, Frankie Dolan, Dessie Dolan, Mattie Forde, Stevie McDonnell or Paddy Bradley, all fantastic corner forwards on teams with no good playmaker at centre forward. It was tried with John Doyle, and they aborted that fairly quick. That's a lot of teams, many with managers worth considerable quantities of salt.

If Offaly are playing Dublin this summer and the ball isn't crossing the '45, having Niall standing around the goal is as useful to us as teats on a bull. And if no one has thought to develop his all round capabilities, because he is an "inside forward" and shall never be anything else, then we're leaving our best asset as a hostage to fortune.

If Offaly are playing Dublin this summer and the ball isn't crossing the 45, at least with Niall inside we know that once we sort that out we have a forward capable of doing damage. There are plenty of players on this Offaly panel that deserve their chance to prove themselves to be the key to resolving this issue and have the profile that they might do so. Again, try Niall out by all means, but it's harsh on some other players to my mind.

[Bord na Mona man]

The debate is not really on the respective merits of a sport. It's about the notion of writing someone off for a (related) position because of how they performed at 19, with a tactically poor manager, when they were having a quiet season. If no attempt is made to develop other aspects of a very talented player's game, then that's not good management,

The scenario you described is exactly what happened in last year's Leinster final. We notionally had 4 half forwards, yet collectively they delivered very little. If Offaly went into this year's likely rematch with a similar gameplan and little scope to change it, then that's really bad preparation.

If Niall and Tommo are playing championship and getting no ball, how do we introduce one of our next best forward subs - Ken Casey and James Coughlan (or maybe John Reynolds)? Indulge in the classic "when in crisis take off the corner forward" management, or actually have developed the scope to re-arrange the side?

The reason why most of the players you mentioned haven't been move outfield is that most of them either have poor vision and distribution, or are in counties with the luxury of having good supply players. McDonnell, Forde and Paddy Bradley aren't strictly goal hangers either and often have one or team mates closer to the goal.

Last Sunday Niall wasn't getting good ball, was being marked by a limpet-like corner back who forced him to take on his shots from bad angles and send them wide. When he moved out the field and Neville Coughlan became a target man, Niall put on an amazing display. I would have shared the same misgivings as yourself about Niall's positioning, but now there is evidence on the merit to getting him familiar with a withdrawn role.

[Hyper]

LS on an aside both Dessie Dolan and John Doyle played centre forward yesterday!!!

[Bogman]

As it happened Niall looked like he was carrying a knock and didn't score from play. He took 2 long range shots in the 1st half - 1 missed the right hand post by a whisker and the other the left hand post by the same margin. Four confident frees though.

Our half back line outscored the midfield & half forwards - Paul McConway and Karol Slattery both scored points off the outside of their right boots, Karol scored an opportunist goal by punching a hopping ball past the advancing goalkeeper.

James Coughlan did indeed have another field day against the Carlow backs - two lovely points, one from distance, and a goal. Ken Casey also scored 2 beautiful points from play. Neville made a big impact when introduced in the 2nd half and scored 1-1 while his brother Thomas looked the part also. Tommo Deehan must have impressed the crowd and mentors with his cameo contribution.

Great scoring but continuing problems at midfield and sloppy play coming out of defence. Longford in 2 weeks will be a big game.

The U-21's have Carlow in Tullamore next weekend.

[Lone Shark]

At the end of the day, given the depth we have in the corner forward position relative to in the half forward line, of course it'll be good if it works out. I'm just wary of the fact that a top class scoring inside forward is a key ingredient to all successful sides, while on the other hand successful sides with half lines full of dogsbodies is very common. Niall is arguably the best scoring forward we've had in over twenty years, and it's just worrying that by turning him into a good playmaker we're losing a great scorer. But if it works, then happy day.

On another note, are the fixture people going to continue to conspire against me??? No in running to be done this Saturday afternoon and the senior hurlers playing down in Cork on Sunday, I thought surely the U-21 football will be Saturday and I can go. Of course not.

Hoors.