Kilkenny 1-27 Offaly 1-13

[Lone Shark]

I think to be honest we've reached the crux of the issue right here. At the risk of being called "cavalry" - BnaM man is spot on about Davy Fitz - the team they had this year in LIT was an absolute farce - it would have beaten the Offaly county team without question. Intercounty players on the bench and everything - if he didn't win that competition it would have been an absolute failure, and even then they got every break of the ball going. UL were up to their neck in injuries for the semi final while UCC tripped up on a dangerous away game against NUIG while Donncha Cody and John Tennyson were unavailable.

He is anything but cool and calm under pressure as well. He was grand this year because LIT were so far ahead of every other team that he never had to be.

I haven't seen Thurles Sars hurl so I won't comment on that, except to say that Limerick people certainly might think differently on whether Ger Cunningham is an intercounty trainer.


As for the costs of managers - Donal O'Grady probably didn't get that in Cork - but then when he was in Cork he hadn't won his All Irelands yet, nor was he charging 300 miles for every training session. If you honestly think he'd cost Offaly less than €100k in a year you're not living in the real world. I've no idea what Roe or Kilmurray got, but if you think it's in that league I would suggest you're mistaken.

Nicky English possibly would have taken over Tipp, but it's one thing to serve as caretaker manager for your home county for four weeks, it's another to take over a county that has been struggling in October and putting in the hard yards all over the winter.


Now, as for the "coaching" of players. Niall McCarthy is a limited player who does a very specific job. I'm not saying that Derek Molloy couldn't be moulded into something similar - however there is no way Niall McCarthy would have got his start on the Cork team in the first place if he couldn't hurl.

Your remedy for coaching is still the same - it involves other people making huge time commitments. Of course we'd like if loads of people in every club wanted to put that time in, but it doesn't always work that way. As I said previously, I'd be very slow to criticise people for not doing this since it's not as if I've put the hours in myself in any of the clubs I've been a member of.

[Bord na Mona man]

Ah jaysus, I can see this argument going around in circles.
No team stays at the top indefinitely. The same reason why Offaly beat Kilkenny in the 1998 All Ireland, but got whupped by them 2 years later. Cork were better than all comers in 04 and 05. Cork went back a little last year and Kilkenny came back hungrier and beat them.
If you can't accept this basic concept then forget it.

You criticised Offaly hurling coaches for not being qualified. This implies that qualifications are not hard to achieve and that coaches are not bothering to get them.
Now you're saying they aren't important. Make up your mind.

I know enough about Davy Fitz to know that his heart is in the right place, but I doubt he will ever be a success at inter county level. This is opinion is gleaned from far more than watching him on tv.

[Offalys Future]

- BnaM man is spot on about Davy Fitz - the team they had this year in LIT was an absolute farce - it would have beaten the Offaly county team without question. Intercounty players on the bench and everything - if he didn't win that competition it would have been an absolute failure, and even then they got every break of the ball going.

And what about 2 years ago when he won it also and won the freshers all-ireland, but ye ae just talking results, i am talking about him as a manager and the qualities he has.

He is anything but cool and calm under pressure as well. He was grand this year because LIT were so far ahead of every other team that he never had to be.

Again where and when has he as manager not been cool and calm under pressure.

I haven't seen Thurles Sars hurl so I won't comment on that, except to say that Limerick people certainly might think differently on whether Ger Cunningham is an intercounty trainer.

The reason i joined this forum is because i thought that there would be people on it that had a bit better knowledge than te fellow on the street.

As for the costs of managers - Donal O'Grady probably didn't get that in Cork - but then when he was in Cork he hadn't won his All Irelands yet, nor was he charging 300 miles for every training session. If you honestly think he'd cost Offaly less than €100k in a year you're not living in the real world. I've no idea what Roe or Kilmurray got, but if you think it's in that league I would suggest you're mistaken.

Again how you can come up with a figure of 100k is beyond me.
Do you think rte pay o grady that for his input every weekend?
i'm afraid not.

Now, as for the "coaching" of players. Niall McCarthy is a limited player who does a very specific job. I'm not saying that Derek Molloy couldn't be moulded into something similar - however there is no way Niall McCarthy would have got his start on the Cork team in the first place if he couldn't hurl.

Niall McCarthy is and has been the 2nd best centre forward in the country for the last 3 years.
And you all him a limited player.

Your remedy for coaching is still the same - it involves other people making huge time commitments. Of course we'd like if loads of people in every club wanted to put that time in, but it doesn't always work that way.

Okay i'll give an example because you dont seem to be getting my point.
Take a u-12 trainer in Banagher, he trains the kids twice a week and a game maybe on weekends.
He hasnt any qualifications in coaching, so what he does in sept is goes and does the coaching course paid by the county board for 4 half days, then when kids start back hurling he can coach them the proper way instead of the way he has been.
No huge committments except for he goes to the coaching courses.
He is putting in the same time with the kids each week, but this time he is coaching them correctly.
This should be done at all levels in club.

[Offalys Future]

You criticised Offaly hurling coaches for not being qualified. This implies that qualifications are not hard to achieve and that coaches are not bothering to get them.
Now you're saying they aren't important. Make up your mind.

What i said was at underage you need to have coaching courses completed to train kids in the club.
For underage intercounty teams you need people with coaching courses done and preferably some experience in coaching
But for senior intercounty hurling management you need alot more.
Like have said so many times man - management, planning and preparing, training methods, discipline etc.

I know enough about Davy Fitz to know that his heart is in the right place, but I doubt he will ever be a success at inter county level. This is opinion is gleaned from far more than watching him on tv.

again you make a statement but you dont make a case for it.
so therfore thats your opinion which i would regard as the same as a lad in the pub on a saturday nite drunk.
That is unless you can back it up

[Lone Shark]

- BnaM man is spot on about Davy Fitz - the team they had this year in LIT was an absolute farce - it would have beaten the Offaly county team without question. Intercounty players on the bench and everything - if he didn't win that competition it would have been an absolute failure, and even then they got every break of the ball going.

And what about 2 years ago when he won it also and won the freshers all-ireland, but ye ae just talking results, i am talking about him as a manager and the qualities he has.

He is anything but cool and calm under pressure as well. He was grand this year because LIT were so far ahead of every other team that he never had to be.

Again where and when has he as manager not been cool and calm under pressure.

As was pointed out, he wasn't exactly cool and calm when he was in charge of the Tipp under 21s. He wasn't cool and calm when he got himself a three month ban when in charge of Sixmilebridge minors. (May have been under 21's, but I think it was minors). He wasn't cool and calm when TG4 were interviewing him after LIT's win and he all but started crying when talking about the current Clare situation.

The man is a fiercely driven Clare hurler and I've no doubt he loves the game deeply - until he does a lot more than coach LIT teams that have bizarre amounts of intercounty hurlers in their ranks to titles that they are odds on favourites for before a ball is pucked I remain unconvinced.

The reason people are not unhappy with McIntyre is on account of results. It's hardly fair to laud Fitzgerald when his cupboard is at least as bare as McIntyres on that score.

I haven't seen Thurles Sars hurl so I won't comment on that, except to say that Limerick people certainly might think differently on whether Ger Cunningham is an intercounty trainer.

The reason i joined this forum is because i thought that there would be people on it that had a bit better knowledge than te fellow on the street.

I'm not sure what you were expecting here - intimate knowledge of club hurling in every county in Ireland? Let me put it to you this - and I am deadly serious about this - if you honestly believe that you have this, and can prove it - I have a job for you here in Ladbrokes. I put a lot of effort into studying results from all across Ireland for when I have to price county championships in the late summer, and somebody who is able to tell me the hurling style and form of all the big clubs in all the counties in Ireland would be invaluable. I have yet to meet this person, but kudos to you if you are that man.

As for the costs of managers - Donal O'Grady probably didn't get that in Cork - but then when he was in Cork he hadn't won his All Irelands yet, nor was he charging 300 miles for every training session. If you honestly think he'd cost Offaly less than €100k in a year you're not living in the real world. I've no idea what Roe or Kilmurray got, but if you think it's in that league I would suggest you're mistaken.

Again how you can come up with a figure of 100k is beyond me.
Do you think rte pay o grady that for his input every weekend?
i'm afraid not.

With RTE, he has one trip every weekend to watch games, and he doesn't put his reputation on the line. To coach an Offaly intercounty team he would need to travel to Offaly three times a week for maybe 40 weeks, which is 120 trips at €150 minimum per go. There's the guts of €20k in mileage alone. On a forum like this I can't exactly name names, but of the prominent managerial figures that are in the GAA world, it is very rare that you will get an All Ireland winner for under 6 figures. Sometimes, as in O'Mahony's case where it helped him get elected, it might happen, but you can rest assured that unless the county offers some other strategic reason, you would not get O'Grady for less than that amount.

Now, as for the "coaching" of players. Niall McCarthy is a limited player who does a very specific job. I'm not saying that Derek Molloy couldn't be moulded into something similar - however there is no way Niall McCarthy would have got his start on the Cork team in the first place if he couldn't hurl.

Niall McCarthy is and has been the 2nd best centre forward in the country for the last 3 years.
And you all him a limited player.

He is a limited player - that is not to say that he is a bad player. There are things he does for Cork that are effective - but you could not win an All Ireland with a team of Niall McCarthys. He plays his role - I don't think even his most fervent supporter would call him a great player. Much like Francie Bellew for Armagh.

Your remedy for coaching is still the same - it involves other people making huge time commitments. Of course we'd like if loads of people in every club wanted to put that time in, but it doesn't always work that way.

Okay i'll give an example because you dont seem to be getting my point.
Take a u-12 trainer in Banagher, he trains the kids twice a week and a game maybe on weekends.
He hasnt any qualifications in coaching, so what he does in sept is goes and does the coaching course paid by the county board for 4 half days, then when kids start back hurling he can coach them the proper way instead of the way he has been.
No huge committments except for he goes to the coaching courses.
He is putting in the same time with the kids each week, but this time he is coaching them correctly.
This should be done at all levels in club.

And why is it not happening? Is it because people know that if they do this there would be pressure on them to commit to even more coaching of club teams? Is it because the wife is sick of her husband being gone all the time and she draws the line at more time spent on hurling? Is it because taking four half days is not an option, as it wouldn't be for many self employed or private sector employees. You seem to think I'm arguing against the benefits of doing this, when in actual fact I'm merely trying to demonstrate that there are very human reasons why this doesn't happen.

What do you think Kilkenny do in this regard that we don't - for example?

[Treasurer]

Offaly's Future, there's no doubt your heart is in the right place and you have raised some valid points that are well worth debating, but just a few little things come to mind....

Maybe it's just me, but I actually find it quite annoying to hear wholesale criticism of the county board, as if they're a separate self-installed entity who are not answerable to anybody. Sure things can be done wrong and criticism can sometimes be well deserved, but go to any club AGM and watch how people suddenly start studying the floor when it comes to seeking nominations for any positions, including county board delegates. Likewise in clubs, people complain about the "same ol' same ol'" but nobody is willing to actually step in and do the work. The County Board actually operates under a very democratic system, but the majority of members don't seem to be interested in exercising their vote when it comes to picking club delegates and that's where the process starts.

If the board were to pay for coaching courses, it is ultimately the clubs who pay for it and clubs can be very difficult to get money out of (justifiably so sometimes.) Also it's not simply a question of 4 half days and away you go - foundation level is very basic and would not have much impact in most clubs. Level 1 is quite detailed, with practical assignments and log books required and it can be quite difficult to get people willing to take it on. Not only that but there are some brilliant coaches who have never completed any courses and sometimes the over-emphasis on certification actually pushes these people away. When it comes down to it I'd rather a knowledgeable "old hand" to be coaching kids than someone who fancies himself as a coach purely because he's done the course. Of course he may prove to be brilliant, but certificates don't automatically make a good coach.

There's also a need to exercise a bit of caution before openly criticising named players on a forum like this. No matter what a player's shortcomings or performance on any given day may be, they put too much into it to be slated publicly behind a blanket of anonymity.

[from the horses mouth]

Like reading on the site but it seems that Offaly Future is getting a right slating.
Not really sure why, as he seems to have a lot of good points.

Plain Of Herbs, Lone Shark, Bord na Mona Man, Treasurer.
Why does every time somebody makes good points you have to go and gang up on them.
This sort of attitute is ruining the forum and not giving people that have less than 500 posts to have a say.

If all of you wanted a private forum for yourselves so all of you can say the same thing over and over again. Why dont you set that up.

[Bord na Mona man]

Like reading on the site but it seems that Offaly Future is getting a right slating.
Not really sure why, as he seems to have a lot of good points.

Plain Of Herbs, Lone Shark, Bord na Mona Man, Treasurer.
Why does every time somebody makes good points you have to go and gang up on them.
This sort of attitute is ruining the forum and not giving people that have less than 500 posts to have a say.

If all of you wanted a private forum for yourselves so all of you can say the same thing over and over again. Why dont you set that up.

Absolutely nothing to do with post counts.
If someone makes controversial or critical points, they should at least be able to back up their arguments when counter points are raised. It's called debate. Don't spit the dummy if everyone doesn't agree with you.

I'm intrigued to know what you find wrong with Treasurer's point above...not that I expect an answer for you.

Complaints about "party lines", "being ganged up on", "people making excuses" are usually a sign that someone isn't able to back up the points they are making and choose to divert the argument elsewhere.

Just like you the nonsense you spouted about "football supporters" leaving early. You got yourself savaged when it was quickly established you were bluffing and had the most basic of facts wrong.

If you want somewhere to lash out and not be expected to stick around and debate the point or defend your position, then I'd recommend Hoganstand.

[Treasurer]

Jeez, From the Horses Mouth, having followed this thread since the start I make one post (not particularly critical of Offaly's Future at that) and I'm ganging up??? No wonder I don't post very often!

[Offalys Future]

- BnaM man is spot on about Davy Fitz - the team they had this year in LIT was an absolute farce - it would have beaten the Offaly county team without question. Intercounty players on the bench and everything - if he didn't win that competition it would have been an absolute failure, and even then they got every break of the ball going.

And what about 2 years ago when he won it also and won the freshers all-ireland, but ye ae just talking results, i am talking about him as a manager and the qualities he has.

He is anything but cool and calm under pressure as well. He was grand this year because LIT were so far ahead of every other team that he never had to be.

Again where and when has he as manager not been cool and calm under pressure.

As was pointed out, he wasn't exactly cool and calm when he was in charge of the Tipp under 21s. He wasn't cool and calm when he got himself a three month ban when in charge of Sixmilebridge minors. (May have been under 21's, but I think it was minors). He wasn't cool and calm when TG4 were interviewing him after LIT's win and he all but started crying when talking about the current Clare situation.

The man is a fiercely driven Clare hurler and I've no doubt he loves the game deeply - until he does a lot more than coach LIT teams that have bizarre amounts of intercounty hurlers in their ranks to titles that they are odds on favourites for before a ball is pucked I remain unconvinced.

The reason people are not unhappy with McIntyre is on account of results. It's hardly fair to laud Fitzgerald when his cupboard is at least as bare as McIntyres on that score.

I haven't seen Thurles Sars hurl so I won't comment on that, except to say that Limerick people certainly might think differently on whether Ger Cunningham is an intercounty trainer.

The reason i joined this forum is because i thought that there would be people on it that had a bit better knowledge than te fellow on the street.

I'm not sure what you were expecting here - intimate knowledge of club hurling in every county in Ireland? Let me put it to you this - and I am deadly serious about this - if you honestly believe that you have this, and can prove it - I have a job for you here in Ladbrokes. I put a lot of effort into studying results from all across Ireland for when I have to price county championships in the late summer, and somebody who is able to tell me the hurling style and form of all the big clubs in all the counties in Ireland would be invaluable. I have yet to meet this person, but kudos to you if you are that man.

As for the costs of managers - Donal O'Grady probably didn't get that in Cork - but then when he was in Cork he hadn't won his All Irelands yet, nor was he charging 300 miles for every training session. If you honestly think he'd cost Offaly less than €100k in a year you're not living in the real world. I've no idea what Roe or Kilmurray got, but if you think it's in that league I would suggest you're mistaken.

Again how you can come up with a figure of 100k is beyond me.
Do you think rte pay o grady that for his input every weekend?
i'm afraid not.

With RTE, he has one trip every weekend to watch games, and he doesn't put his reputation on the line. To coach an Offaly intercounty team he would need to travel to Offaly three times a week for maybe 40 weeks, which is 120 trips at €150 minimum per go. There's the guts of €20k in mileage alone. On a forum like this I can't exactly name names, but of the prominent managerial figures that are in the GAA world, it is very rare that you will get an All Ireland winner for under 6 figures. Sometimes, as in O'Mahony's case where it helped him get elected, it might happen, but you can rest assured that unless the county offers some other strategic reason, you would not get O'Grady for less than that amount.

Now, as for the "coaching" of players. Niall McCarthy is a limited player who does a very specific job. I'm not saying that Derek Molloy couldn't be moulded into something similar - however there is no way Niall McCarthy would have got his start on the Cork team in the first place if he couldn't hurl.

Niall McCarthy is and has been the 2nd best centre forward in the country for the last 3 years.
And you all him a limited player.

He is a limited player - that is not to say that he is a bad player. There are things he does for Cork that are effective - but you could not win an All Ireland with a team of Niall McCarthys. He plays his role - I don't think even his most fervent supporter would call him a great player. Much like Francie Bellew for Armagh.

Your remedy for coaching is still the same - it involves other people making huge time commitments. Of course we'd like if loads of people in every club wanted to put that time in, but it doesn't always work that way.

Okay i'll give an example because you dont seem to be getting my point.
Take a u-12 trainer in Banagher, he trains the kids twice a week and a game maybe on weekends.
He hasnt any qualifications in coaching, so what he does in sept is goes and does the coaching course paid by the county board for 4 half days, then when kids start back hurling he can coach them the proper way instead of the way he has been.
No huge committments except for he goes to the coaching courses.
He is putting in the same time with the kids each week, but this time he is coaching them correctly.
This should be done at all levels in club.

And why is it not happening? Is it because people know that if they do this there would be pressure on them to commit to even more coaching of club teams? Is it because the wife is sick of her husband being gone all the time and she draws the line at more time spent on hurling? Is it because taking four half days is not an option, as it wouldn't be for many self employed or private sector employees. You seem to think I'm arguing against the benefits of doing this, when in actual fact I'm merely trying to demonstrate that there are very human reasons why this doesn't happen.

What do you think Kilkenny do in this regard that we don't - for example?

Will come back to ya in a few days on all the above.
We have just beaten the all-ireland champions at under twenty one level and that should be the main topic of conversation for the next few days.

[Hyper]

What team do you coach/manage Offaly future?

[Offalys Future]

As was pointed out, he wasn't exactly cool and calm when he was in charge of the Tipp under 21s. He wasn't cool and calm when he got himself a three month ban when in charge of Sixmilebridge minors. (May have been under 21's, but I think it was minors). He wasn't cool and calm when TG4 were interviewing him after LIT's win and he all but started crying when talking about the current Clare situation.

The man is a fiercely driven Clare hurler and I've no doubt he loves the game deeply - until he does a lot more than coach LIT teams that have bizarre amounts of intercounty hurlers in their ranks to titles that they are odds on favourites for before a ball is pucked I remain unconvinced.

The reason people are not unhappy with McIntyre is on account of results. It's hardly fair to laud Fitzgerald when his cupboard is at least as bare as McIntyres on that score.

Right
Mickey Harte burst into tears after Tyrone won the all-ireland - does that make him a bad manager?
Billy Morgan got suspended for abusing a referee - does that make him a bad manager?
Ger Loughanne Received suspensions while clare manager - does that make him a bad manager?
Brian Cody ran onto the field at half time of a game between kk and galway and abused diarmuid kirwan, and only 3 weeks ago he went mad with the ref at half time in offaly game - does that make not suitable to train a intercounty team?
In the 2002 all-ireland football final at half time joe kernan smashed his all-ireland runners up trophy off the floor - does that make not suitable to manage a team?
In this years all-ireland club semi final replay in nenagh current kerry manager pat o shea abused his goal keeper for not following instruction - how the hell is he training the all-ireland champions?
The list is endless.
One word for you passion.
Thats what all the above managers have and thats part of who they are and thats part of the reason they are successful.

Again in regards to the fitzgibbon,
He trained them to the fitzgibbon 2 years ago also.
This year ucd had a host of intercounty hurlers on their team how come they didnt wn the fitzgibbon cup.

Reults are a achieved by the way a team is prepared.

I'm not sure what you were expecting here - intimate knowledge of club hurling in every county in Ireland? Let me put it to you this - and I am deadly serious about this - if you honestly believe that you have this, and can prove it - I have a job for you here in Ladbrokes. I put a lot of effort into studying results from all across Ireland for when I have to price county championships in the late summer, and somebody who is able to tell me the hurling style and form of all the big clubs in all the counties in Ireland would be invaluable. I have yet to meet this person, but kudos to you if you are that man.

i would regard myself of having a very good knowledge of hurling yes throughout the country.
Have my own job though and not looking for a new one, but if you are looking for a bit of help dont hesitate to email.

With RTE, he has one trip every weekend to watch games, and he doesn't put his reputation on the line. To coach an Offaly intercounty team he would need to travel to Offaly three times a week for maybe 40 weeks, which is 120 trips at €150 minimum per go. There's the guts of €20k in mileage alone. On a forum like this I can't exactly name names, but of the prominent managerial figures that are in the GAA world, it is very rare that you will get an All Ireland winner for under 6 figures. Sometimes, as in O'Mahony's case where it helped him get elected, it might happen, but you can rest assured that unless the county offers some other strategic reason, you would not get O'Grady for less than that amount.

Now unless you are Donal o' Grady? i dont know how you can say the above?
Firstly two weekends ago he was in thurles on sat and sun? Was he on overtime from rte?!
How can you say he would have to train a team for 40 weeks with 3 sessions a week. Maybe you are donal o grady i dont know, if not then you are talking complete rubbish.
In regards to money
If Offaly were playing Cork in Div 1 Hurling next year in Birr with Donal O Grady in Charge there would be at least 4000 people there.
If 1/2 of the croud payed €10 and 500 people payed €5, that would be 22500 on the gate.
This is without programme sales etc.

But instead we will be playing wicklow with 200 people there at €10 = €2000.

A former Offaly manager is quoted in last weeks papers with the following.

"------- says the money spent onthe new stadium in Tullamore should have been invested in further developement facilities for the county footballers and hurlers.
"I'd rather have a rickety old stand full than a new one half empty"

At least there is one other person in the county on the same wavelenght as me.

He is a limited player - that is not to say that he is a bad player. There are things he does for Cork that are effective - but you could not win an All Ireland with a team of Niall McCarthys. He plays his role - I don't think even his most fervent supporter would call him a great player. Much like Francie Bellew for Armagh.

If every player not a limited player then?
Your statement doesnt make sense.
There is no complete hurler in the country.

And why is it not happening? Is it because people know that if they do this there would be pressure on them to commit to even more coaching of club teams? Is it because the wife is sick of her husband being gone all the time and she draws the line at more time spent on hurling? Is it because taking four half days is not an option, as it wouldn't be for many self employed or private sector employees. You seem to think I'm arguing against the benefits of doing this, when in actual fact I'm merely trying to demonstrate that there are very human reasons why this doesn't happen.

What do you think Kilkenny do in this regard that we don't - for example?

Yes and if this continues to be the attitude, Offaly will continue to be unsuccessful.
And we will always be the county that causes a big upset once every 5 years but can never do it consistently and the reason been because we have no structures in place.

Just a couple of points for ya.

On the 18th of June at 8:00am the morning after he was named rte man of match and his team had qualified for the Ulster Football Final, Brian Dooher attended a gym in Tyrone.

Last sunday Monaghan footballers reached the ulster football final which they havent won since 1988. The panel ate sandwiches in the dressing room and then went for a recovery session which included ice baths etc.
At half nine on Sunday evening they sat down for their meal. 3 weeks before they play the Ulster Football Final.

On the night that Offaly were defeated by Kilkenny in this years Leinster, less than 3 weeks before they play the first round of the qualifier, half the team were out drinking.
Now there is nothing wrong with the lads out doing this, at the end of the day they are amateurs, they have girlfriends etc.
But the above 2 examples are only a few of what it takes to be successful.
If Offaly ever want to be successful again at senior level then they will need players and management with the attidtude of the above.

[Lone Shark]

Right, these posts are getting quare long, so I'm going to just shorten them and come back with a quick rebuttal on each:

(1) Davie Fitz - obviously passion is a huge element, however there is a difference between Mickey Harte crying when paying tribute to a passed on team member after reaching the pinnacle of the sport for only the second time in the county's 120 year GAA history and Davie Fitz losing the ceann every second match. I'll accept that Cody loses the head with refs too, but you know enough about hurling to know full well that his outbursts are only 20% emotion and 80% tactics and intimidating refs. Ger Loughnane likewise got suspensions - and every time he knew EXACTLY what he was doing. He used to burst on the field to distract attention from referees who were about to send off his players, or give out about referees after games to take the heat off his own team and their tactics. Again, this was some very contrived emotion. I'm disappointed in you here - you know this as well as I do.

(2) The Fitzgibbon cup. At the time of the Fitzgibbon finals there were 6 teams that were 12/1 or shorter for the AI - KK,WD,CK,GY,Tipp and Clare. Every other team was 33/1 or bigger. Davie Fitz fielded 8 players that would be regular starters for the above six teams (NOT counting Joe Canning who would be if he wanted to be) - UCD fielded Damien Hayes, who might get picked for Galway and Diarmuid Fitzgerald who is a Tipp corner back. UCD used Bryan Buckley, Killavilla player and around thirty players away from getting on the Offaly panel as one of his subs. Davie Fitz left Bernard Gaffney, a man who singlehandedly prevented the best of Offaly from beating Clare in Birr this year, on the bench for that game, because either he didn't need him or he didn't rate him. Don't try and tell me that UCD were the equivalent to LIT this year, the standard of player wasn't even close. No Fitzgibbon team other than LIT had that amount of big name starters in their team - not one of them. I'm not knocking their preparation - I'm saying that it's the equivalent of winning an Offaly senior hurling championship with Birr - you have to avoid making mistakes, but you have the raw material and a bit besides.

(3) Donal O'Grady - now I am not going to name names on this website, despite your best attempts to make me, but the following are some of the contracts that are out there between football and hurling:

(i) Former All Ireland winner managing poor intercounty team - €80k
(ii) Middling intercounty manager, never won a provincial title, managing a team that hasn't won a provincial title in over a quarter of a century, small population - €55k
(iii) Successful intercounty manager, controversial, never won AI, managing middling intercounty team - €65k

They are just some of the deals that I know of out there. That is before "expenses" are put on top of that. Now you cannot tell me that in that climate, with no obvious ulterior motive, Donal O'Grady would manage Offaly and put his reputation on the line for less than €100k all in??? Not a hope lad. You're being utterly naive if you think he would.

Now personally I hate the idea of paid managers, so I would rather see our county struggle and stand up for what is right than pay some interloper a fortune, but having said that, your analysis is very simplistic. Say we did get €20k from a league game, and that it was guaranteed that DOG kept us up (which is far from a guarantee - let's face it, we had a reasonably good group stage of the league, and just because we lost to Limerick 6-20 to 1-18 on a bad day doesn't mean that we couldn't have played well and still lost 1-19 to 1-18 ) there still are only four home league games. You can't exactly give all your revenue to the one man. And remember all the extra staff he demanded in Cork - do you think he'd take on this job without all that extra support? Now take the money you lose - what about all those volunteers in the county who have been dedicated fundraisers, who do it because they love their county and their clubs - how many of them are you budgeting to lose because they feel the money is being spent on this new glamour boy? Can you imagine going round collecting money in Doonbeg or Kilmurry-Ibrickane football club this summer, when all the money that has been spent on Páidí has been wasted?

I appreciate your frustration, but just because I can't provide an invoice for DOG's services doesn't mean that he'll be affordable. And surely you that says the team are underprepared must acknowledge that a minimum of three meetings a week from Nov to July is required? I don't see how it could be otherwise.

(4) Limited players - what I mean by limited players are guys that have obvious strengths to their game as opposed to players that are reasonably proficient at all disciplines. Again, I can't help but feel that you know what I'm talking about here but you're arguing for the sake of it. If you can't tell the difference between two players where one is "limited" in the strictest sense of the word, then I don't know what to say to you. I give you Ger Oakley vs Niall Claffey as the obvious example. Ger is much more "limited" in the sense that there are things he really can't do, but ask me which one I'd pick in the number 7 shirt and it would be Wolverine every time.

(5) Dooher/Monaghan vs Offaly attitudes. I have to confess I raised an eyebrow at this. I don't doubt that the Monaghan team are maximising their potential right now, and the dedication of Tyrone panellists and Brian Dooher in particular is legendary. However your whole premise has been that the players are not at fault, but the management is. Now here you are saying that the attitude of the players is all wrong. Now I'm not all about the totalitarian attitudes at all, but surely grown men have to want to do that themselves? John McIntyre was the first manager in Offaly to really try and enforce that kind of personal discipline when he threw the seven lads out of the panel, and yet you castigate him? Surely it's not down to managers to tell grown men how to behave in their private lives - and yet you seem to blame management for this?

I ain't following you here .....

[Lone Shark]

It was meant to be a "quick rebuttal"

Ah well.

[Offalys Future]

5) Dooher/Monaghan vs Offaly attitudes. I have to confess I raised an eyebrow at this. I don't doubt that the Monaghan team are maximising their potential right now, and the dedication of Tyrone panellists and Brian Dooher in particular is legendary. However your whole premise has been that the players are not at fault, but the management is. Now here you are saying that the attitude of the players is all wrong. Now I'm not all about the totalitarian attitudes at all, but surely grown men have to want to do that themselves? John McIntyre was the first manager in Offaly to really try and enforce that kind of personal discipline when he threw the seven lads out of the panel, and yet you castigate him? Surely it's not down to managers to tell grown men how to behave in their private lives - and yet you seem to blame management for this?

This is the point i would like to talk about.
Again its about the manager, the manager is the person that the players listen to and respect. The manager has to have the planning, preparing and organising done. He cant just go in there and change things around completely, man management is what i keep going back to.
He threw the 7 lads off the panel, but was that the right decision.
Last year we got beaten in the quarter final of the Div 1 league and made no progress in the championship.
This year we got relegated to Div 2 and so far have made no progress in the championship.

i) Former All Ireland winner managing poor intercounty team - €80k
(ii) Middling intercounty manager, never won a provincial title, managing a team that hasn't won a provincial title in over a quarter of a century, small population - €55k
(iii) Successful intercounty manager, controversial, never won AI, managing middling intercounty team - €65k

Again i aint going naming names but i know what the majority of the managers are receiving in both Offaly and other counties and you would surprised by the figures.

They are just some of the deals that I know of out there. That is before "expenses" are put on top of that. Now you cannot tell me that in that climate, with no obvious ulterior motive, Donal O'Grady would manage Offaly and put his reputation on the line for less than €100k all in??? Not a hope lad. You're being utterly naive if you think he would.

Again unless you are DOG you cant say that, i'm sorry but you cant.
You keep going back to putting his reputation on the line, he would be going to manage an Offaly team, get very well looked after and he would be training a team that has had no success.
No pressure what so ever, anything he achieves is a success.

Now take the money you lose - what about all those volunteers in the county who have been dedicated fundraisers, who do it because they love their county and their clubs - how many of them are you budgeting to lose because they feel the money is being spent on this new glamour boy?

I wouldnt regard Donal o Grady, davy fitz or ger cunningham glamour boys now would you?

And surely you that says the team are underprepared must acknowledge that a minimum of three meetings a week from Nov to July is required? I don't see how it could be otherwise.

Again you dont know, many teams train only 2 times per week, thats a question of the manager when he takes over.

I give you Ger Oakley vs Niall Claffey as the obvious example. Ger is much more "limited" in the sense that there are things he really can't do, but ask me which one I'd pick in the number 7 shirt and it would be Wolverine every time.

I guess this is really it -
you would rather claffey than Oakley.
Oakley is limited and claffey fancies himself.
But i'm a winner and offaly will never win an all-ireland hurling title with a player like ger oakley on the team.
Maybe thats harsh, he is very committed and all, but he might produce a great display one week and terrible the next.
Too unpredictale if you ask me.


I have talked to many successful intercounty hurlers and footballers, and they speak off record with great praise and respect for past and present managers of their teams.
You dont walk into a dressing room and command this respect, you earn it. The players will eventual see what you are trying to achieve and will work with you.
McIntyre just doesnt have it, never had and never will. He spoke only recently about his job been on the line if they dont do well in the qualifiers. Is he mad, 3 years on and we are as worse off as ever.
The u-21s had a good win, i just hope they can win the final, if so he deserves praise but for now, no praise mr mcintyre the p45 is in the envelope, saturday evening will decide if it will be posted or not.