Kilkenny 1-27 Offaly 1-13

[del]

offalys future i think you have a serious chip on your shoulder and need to take a chill pill man. i have watched the hurlers the last few years and the match against kilkenny was the first time in a long time when i honestly thought we mite have a half decent team in the making and its the first time in a long time they hurled with real fight and determination against kilkenny now granted we are still way off kilkenny but all the blame at john mcintyre is unwarrented which is what essentially you are saying he can only play with cards he is dealt we have been at nothing at underage hurling since 2000 if my memory is right. now its very hard to have a good senior team if the underage teams aint winning anything. i commend you for your stats on the game and you obviosly are passionate about offaly but for jaysus sake chill out and no need to be so daming of other peoples opinions

[the bare biffo]

I wanted to know more and i have found out, your not a trainer, manager, player or analyst. Therfore your opinion is like any other guy up on the stands or in the pub on a sat or sun nite.

Now you are just beginning to sound like either a wind up merchant or a pretentious idiot full of self importance.

Don't take yourself so seriously lad.

Can I ask you one question. What age are you?

[Dingle]

...

[Dingle]

I think the last 2 posts sums this place up. A certain , well established poster, has yet another personal dig at a guy and when its responded to the cavalry arrive in masse frothing at the mouth. Toe the party line or else...

[DD]

Me thinks there's a bit of a wind up going on here..
It's bordering on Hoganstand stuff!

[Offalys Future]

Plain of the herbs made an accusation about me so i responded.

I'm here to give my views on hurling, just because some of you dont like them that wont stop me from posting my comments and opinions.

The majority of ye and offaly supporters refuse to face the facts in regards to the county hurling setup in the county.

I more than anybody would love to see Offaly winning a leinster title but that wont happen under the setup that is now in place.

Success doesnt come from any 1 thing, it comes from so many little things that are missing in Offaly, until they are sorted we are not going anywhere.
And yes i have problems with Mcintyre, he hasnt a clue, he has bad man management skills and doesnt know how to coach a intercounty team and as a manager he has won a Galway county title - does that make him a good manager? - gerry kirwan won two with clareen - sher why shouldnt he be training offaly.
The senior hurling management has been a joke for the last 3 years and the qualifiers will show you that.
Yes Offaly gave a spirited display in first half against Kilkenny
Yes we do have the hurlers to compete in an all-ireland quarter final
But its a managers job to get the best out of the players, through his management and coaching knowledge.
Is he getting the best out of his players?
Ye all say that mcintyre is a good manager and he can only play the cards he is dealt - a complete rubbish statement.
The sooner the qualifiers come and go the sooner he is gone and maybe then the county board will wake up.

O yeah heres one for ye, the only fully qualified hurling coach in Offaly is training a club team, because he wont get involved with any underage teams because the county board dont want change and they dont want him, they prefer to have unqualified trainers and selectors of the county underage teams.
they just want a great stand with their names beside it and a good football team.

[Lone Shark]

I think the last 2 posts sums this place up. A certain , well established poster, has yet another personal dig at a guy and when its responded to the cavalry arrive in masse frothing at the mouth. Toe the party line or else...

To be fair the accusations were to and fro - one of being an apologist for the county board, the other of being a disgruntled ex-county hurler or friend of the same. The reason the "cavalry" bales in as you put it is that many of us regulars here have met Plain of the Herbs at Offaly games and know that he isn't a county board member or apologist. (The fact that Offaly's future considers that almost to be an insult despite most people here thinking county board members to largely be dedicated servants of Offaly GAA is another matter) Offaly's Future, so far, is unknown. Equally while he makes some good observations, surely even he will concede that he tends to focus his ire in one direction in particular. His motives may be unknown, but most readers of this site, while agreeing with him on several of the ugly symptoms of Offaly's current malaise, would see the root cause of the illness to be a lot more nuanced.

[Lone Shark]

Plain of the herbs made an accusation about me so i responded.

I'm here to give my views on hurling, just because some of you dont like them that wont stop me from posting my comments and opinions.

The majority of ye and offaly supporters refuse to face the facts in regards to the county hurling setup in the county.

I more than anybody would love to see Offaly winning a leinster title but that wont happen under the setup that is now in place.

Success doesnt come from any 1 thing, it comes from so many little things that are missing in Offaly, until they are sorted we are not going anywhere.
And yes i have problems with Mcintyre, he hasnt a clue, he has bad man management skills and doesnt know how to coach a intercounty team and as a manager he has won a Galway county title - does that make him a good manager? - gerry kirwan won two with clareen - sher why shouldnt he be training offaly.
The senior hurling management has been a joke for the last 3 years and the qualifiers will show you that.
Yes Offaly gave a spirited display in first half against Kilkenny
Yes we do have the hurlers to compete in an all-ireland quarter final
But its a managers job to get the best out of the players, through his management and coaching knowledge.
Is he getting the best out of his players?
Ye all say that mcintyre is a good manager and he can only play the cards he is dealt - a complete rubbish statement.
The sooner the qualifiers come and go the sooner he is gone and maybe then the county board will wake up.

O yeah heres one for ye, the only fully qualified hurling coach in Offaly is training a club team, because he wont get involved with any underage teams because the county board dont want change and they dont want him, they prefer to have unqualified trainers and selectors of the county underage teams.
they just want a great stand with their names beside it and a good football team.

The divil is in the detail lad. You have been lambasting POTH for his match previews, saying that because they don't contain an accurate rundown of what will happen, they essentially contain no useful information. I and several others consider them to be thoroughly engaging pieces that break down a game into the several little things that make up the overall context, but taste is taste. I will agree that the tend to lack the soothsaying, and for some people that might be a missing ingredient.

However here and now I'm going to flip that logic and put it back to you. You have covered a lot of the symptoms of Offaly's current ills in your pieces. However, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, but your actual solutions rarely go beyond a cull of management at every level of hurling in Offaly - nothing to do with where we would go from there. So right now I'm going to give you a chance - a 65m free, and we'll see if you can slot it over the bar yourself. Rather than repeating your mantras about management, field this lot for me and see where we are then.

(1) You say that management is inadequate, and that John McIntyre is inadequate at this level. Let's say for a minute that you get your wish - name three guys that you would call to interview that fulfil your criteria. Bear in mind here that this is Offaly - spending €100k on somebody like Donal O'Grady is not an option, while neither is naming guys like Nicky English who is not a runner in real life. If he wouldn't manage Tipp again, why would he manage an Offaly team that he has no connection with and who offers no immediate prospect of glory?

(2) You blame management for the lack of a gameplan for the start of the second half to revive the ailing forward division. Specifically - what would you have done?

(3) Do you honestly believe that at age 21 a hurler can develop knacky skills that he hasn't had up to now? I would contend that a senior manager is mainly responsible for devising a system, integrating his players into that system, preparing them in terms of sharpness and fitenss and reacting to the unfolding play on the field. he cannot turn a silk purse into a sow's ear. You say it's down to the manager to "coach" players into new skills. To give an example - do you believe that Derek Molloy would now be able to put a ball over the bar off either side from 70m under pressure if Brian Cody was coaching him? I don't. I think Cody gets players who can do this and then does the stuff I mentioned above.

(4) You bemoan the coaching setup in the county. How many full time coaches do you think we need, and how would you pay for them? The second part of this question is something you've been avoiding touching on for some time now.


If this all comes apart as being aggressive, my apologies, that's not how it's intended. I merely see some gaping holes in your arguments, the same holes that I suspect several others see as well, and I'm giving you the chance to fill them in.

[Hyper]

Well lads i'm not one to comment too much about the hurling side of things but here's my little bit...but Offaly's Future as was said earlier take a chill pill. Your posts are now becoming repitive. I get your jist that you want Mcintyre banished to Eutopia or the likes! Ive been reading POTH and LS's etc pre and post match hurling analysis on this forum for some time now and they have been very informative and this from a guy leaning towards the football side of things.

[Offalys Future]

You want answers, okay.

The divil is in the detail lad. You have been lambasting POTH for his match previews, saying that because they don't contain an accurate rundown of what will happen, they essentially contain no useful information. I and several others consider them to be thoroughly engaging pieces that break down a game into the several little things that make up the overall context, but taste is taste. I will agree that the tend to lack the soothsaying, and for some people that might be a missing ingredient.

However here and now I'm going to flip that logic and put it back to you. You have covered a lot of the symptoms of Offaly's current ills in your pieces. However, and correct me if I'm mistaken here, but your actual solutions rarely go beyond a cull of management at every level of hurling in Offaly - nothing to do with where we would go from there. So right now I'm going to give you a chance - a 65m free, and we'll see if you can slot it over the bar yourself. Rather than repeating your mantras about management, field this lot for me and see where we are then.

(1) You say that management is inadequate, and that John McIntyre is inadequate at this level. Let's say for a minute that you get your wish - name three guys that you would call to interview that fulfil your criteria. Bear in mind here that this is Offaly - spending €100k on somebody like Donal O'Grady is not an option, while neither is naming guys like Nicky English who is not a runner in real life. If he wouldn't manage Tipp again, why would he manage an Offaly team that he has no connection with and who offers no immediate prospect of glory?

Firstly in the last 5 years Offaly County Board spend a reasonable sum of money on a football manager for a year. This i know for a fact.
But how can you even say that Donal O Grady charges that? Is that what he received in Cork, i dont think so.
Secondly - if Tiperary had lost last weekend, babs keating was going tobe sacked and Nicky English was going to take over.
But he wouldnt step in now because he wouldnt have anything to do with Babs been sacked. Another true statement.
Here is just three managers that i think should be interviewed for the Offaly Hurling position:

Donal O Grady
Regarded by many as the most astute manager in the game at present. He completely changed Corks style of hurling play and after the strike he led to two All-irelands finals which he won one.
He completely changed the mindset of many of the Cork hurling squad, rceived their full respect which he still does now.
The thing that impressed me most about O Grady was that he made household names out of hurlers like Timmy McCarthy and Niall McCarthy.
And he improved hurlers that had the right attitute and discipline.
Man Management Skills and Attention To Detail = Excellent Manager = Success

Ger Cunningham
Currently training Thurles Sarsfield.
Coached Newtownshandrum to the All-Ireland Club title in 2004.
Turn that club into the best club team in the country with his now famous pass and move style of hurling.
His attention to detail is unreal and his man management skills are second to none.
The day before each championship game he rings each panel menber and talks to him regarding the game - Man Management.
Coached Thurles Sarsfield to county success in 2005.
Just have a look at the following link
http://www.ul.ie/~hurling/sponsors.html#freshertraining
This is freshers college hurling.
Now you will say he was ran out of Limerick, he wasnt manager he was coach, and what have Limerick won since?
And i can assure you Limerick didnt pay him and Thurles Sarsfield arent paying him €100k for the year.
Man Management Skills and Attention To Detail = Excellent Manager = Success

3. Davy Fitzgerald
Whether he will return to intercounty hurling well that remains to be seen.
But as a manager goes there isnt many out there like him.
Attention to detail is phenominal.
For an example before each game that the players played for L.I.T a college team all their gear was layed out in dressingroom an hour before throw in. now you will say that doesnt make him a good manager, but not one thing does its all these little things.
Little things like this get the respect of the players, they then realise that it means something to be playing for this team.
He had hurlers from all different counties and you go and ask them how much respect they have for their manager.
Man Management Skills and Attention To Detail = Excellent Manager = Success
Oh Yes Limerick I.T arent paying him €100k for the year either.

Now am sure you will have a problem with the above three, or you will make a remark regarding Brian Cody that he doesnt go into this much detail with his players, but Brian Cody has what no other manager in the country has he has twenty exceptional hurlers.

(2) You blame management for the lack of a gameplan for the start of the second half to revive the ailing forward division. Specifically - what would you have done?

Again you dont go into a dressing room at half time of a game and start mouthing off a game plan, that is what the last seven months should have been preparing for so each hurler would know exactly what they had to do.
For instance, imagine trying to organise a puckout for Gary Haniffy to be isolated with his marker so he could win the puckot - again preparation which was never done.
I think you saw from my previous posts what i would have done.

(3) Do you honestly believe that at age 21 a hurler can develop knacky skills that he hasn't had up to now? I would contend that a senior manager is mainly responsible for devising a system, integrating his players into that system, preparing them in terms of sharpness and fitenss and reacting to the unfolding play on the field. he cannot turn a silk purse into a sow's ear. You say it's down to the manager to "coach" players into new skills. To give an example - do you believe that Derek Molloy would now be able to put a ball over the bar off either side from 70m under pressure if Brian Cody was coaching him? I don't. I think Cody gets players who can do this and then does the stuff I mentioned above.

In 2002 Niall McCarthy played his first league game for Cork and looked completely out of place hurling wing forward.
He was coached in 2003 and 2004 by donal o grady and he was give a specific job. Donal O Grady got the best out of McCarthy and he is and has been the 2nd best centre forward in the country for the last 3 years.
So yes coaching does work.

(4) You bemoan the coaching setup in the county. How many full time coaches do you think we need, and how would you pay for them? The second part of this question is something you've been avoiding touching on for some time now.

I never once said that we needed more full time coaches.
What i said was that we need to have the people that are training our county underage teams to be fully qualified coaches. Something that doesnt happen now.
To do these courses cost €200 and you have to do 4.
Thats €800, if each club had one fully qualified coach at the minimum. Which the county board should be paying for these courses.
Jesus in all fairness its 2007 each club should have a fully qualified coach
That would be money very well spent.

You talk about money, John Foley has gave very generously to the Academys which are a complete joke, in Offaly now you have guys training u-12, u-14, u-16, minor and u-21 teams and none of them are fully qualified coaches.
Now what the hell is John Foley putting his money into?
Does he know whats going on because i am sure he wouldnt be too impressed.
Like i have said previous the games development officer in the county isnt involved in the academys, it is his job to develop underage hurling in the county yet he is not involved in the academys for the best hurlers in the county.
No hurlers from Birr, Banager or Shinrone attended the easter academys for hurling in tullamore.

And another thing, there is 12 senior hurling teams in Offaly, 11 of those teams are been coached by guys that are not fully qualified coaches.
So therefore whatever work is been done at underage in the clubs this is been ruined when these players get to senior level and been told something completely different.

If this all comes apart as being aggressive, my apologies, that's not how it's intended. I merely see some gaping holes in your arguments, the same holes that I suspect several others see as well, and I'm giving you the chance to fill them in.

I hope the above has answered some of your questions and opened your eyes to whats really going on in regards to hurling setup in the county.
Whether i come across as completely negative or not that doesnt bother me, there would be no need for me to say anything if everything was perfect in the county which it is far from.[/url]

[Bord na Mona man]

No offence meant to Davy Fitz, but he's a nutter!
If he couldn't deliver a Fitzgibbon Cup with the talent he had at LIT, then he should give it up.
Tactically and on the sideline, he's not seen as a great coach. He loses his cool on the line too often and opposition mentors know to wind him up.

Ger Cunningham wasn't a success at Limerick because in order to play his possession game you need to have excellent hurlers to start with. You need to control the passes 100% of the time, or else!
Limerick have plenty of agricultural mullocky hurlers, but not many refined ones. In my opinion in terms of skill level, the are the poorest of the top 8 teams. By sheer effort and attrition they dragged their way back in the Tipp games.

Cork could have won their All Irelands without the short passing lark. the same goes for Galway in the 80s. If it was the key to winning All Irelands, every county would be doing it.
I'm not knocking our lads, but I can't think of many of them who would be comfortable flinging handpasses from one to the other. Could you imagine Oakley, Kenny and Brady making a monkey out of Shefflin and Cha Fitz with the short passes before releasing Brendam Murphy on a solo run upfield to slot it over the bar?

When it comes to coaching. You don't just pay a few bob, do a course and bingo. To get fully qualified, you have to do a significant amount of course work and coaching at the later levels. A person needs a lot of free time to achieve this.

[Offalys Future]

yes exactly what i expected from you excuses, excuses, excuses.
David Fitz very rarely loses his cool on the sideline, but you go back to a u-21 game 6 or 7 years ago.
and by who is he not seen as a great coach?

Ger Cunningham doesnt just play a possession game, if you go to thurles you wont see redser o grady or lar corbett running up and down the field handpassing the ball. Again this is what you would read in the papers.

How you can say Cork could have won the all -irelands without their passing game is beyond me.

To coach you attend the coaching courses and then you bring that back to the team you coach.
Any person that is involved with teams in the county now have time on their hands to coach the teams but they dont have the courses done.
That is one of the many problems at present.

You seem to write what you read in the media, and just make excuses for everything else.
Come back to me when you you can start making some sense with your comments regarding coaching and hurling in general.

[Bord na Mona man]

Excuses? Excuses for what? Jaysus!

Cork won their All Irelands because in those two years they had the best hurlers in Ireland.

You named coaches and I gave reasons why they mightn't be a success in Offaly.
Davy Fitz has gone balubas on the sideline since the riot in Ennis back in '99. Getting involved with crowd, the opposition management and abusing players.

I personally know what some of his training methods are and my gut feeling is that he wouldn't make the big step up from managing students to managing serious inter-county teams. You blast McIntyre for ONLY having success at club level, yet Davy Fitz has no hint of a track record at county level and he's the bees knees.

As a matter of interest, how many inter county managers are fully qualified coaches?
I'm not sure, but is it really key to successful management?

[Bord na Mona man]

Come back to me when you you can start making some sense with your comments regarding coaching and hurling in general.

Come back to me when you have as many hurling medals as I have!

[Offalys Future]

Cork won their All Irelands because in those two years they had the best hurlers in Ireland.

They had the same hurlers last year, if your statement is correct why didnt they win last year.
As a matter of interest who is the best hurlers in the country this year?

Davy Fitz has gone balubas on the sideline since the riot in Ennis back in '99. Getting involved with crowd, the opposition management and abusing players.
I personally know what some of his training methods are and my gut feeling is that he wouldn't make the big step up from managing students to managing serious inter-county teams.

when and where has he gone "balubas" on the sideline since then and when did he abuse players and managers?

You blast McIntyre for ONLY having success at club level, yet Davy Fitz has no hint of a track record at county level and he's the bees knees.

I never blasted mcintyre because of only success at club level. From seeing what he has done over the last 3 years and seeing his coaching and man management, and also that he has only won a county title with a club, they are the reaons that i feel he is unsuitable to coach a county team.
I never said David Fitz was the bees knees, i said his attention to detail is second to none, he goes about his training of a team in a professional manner and any players he has trained in the last 5 years would tell you that. From doing this he gains the respect of the players involved.
And most importantly he has ben successful. Because all of the above together and good coaching bring success.

As a matter of interest, how many inter county managers are fully qualified coaches?
I'm not sure, but is it really key to successful management?

Again, like i have said so many times, there is more to coaching a intercounty team than just having ur coaching courses.
Man Management, planning and preparation, training methods, discipline etc.

Excuses
Yes i name david fitz and you tell me he's a nutter cos you watch him on telly.
I name ger cunningham and you go on about a possession game that he doesnt use in thurles.
I make a factual comment regarding coaching and then you go and say "you dont just pay a few bob do a course and bingo"


I have no problem with you but unless start making sense this discussion is going nowhere, come back to me with facts and then we can talk.