Kilkenny 1-27 Offaly 1-13

[black and red exile]

Jaysus Offaly future, Im exhausted after reading all that. There are some points I would certainly agree with but there are also other points in which in my opinion I believe you are talking complete twaddle. Before the game last week you made a call to meet up with some of us to talk over our points of view which obviously differ in a lot of ways. If you're offer still stands I for one would love to meet you on the day of the first qualifer to have a good old fashioned debate because I don't have the patience to elaborate over the website.

[Bord na Mona man]

Fair play to Offalys future for taking the time out to do such a detailed analysis.
I would like to mention that it may be unfair to blame certain scores on players because their direct marker go them.
In the case of David Kenny, he has to contest every ball that drops towards him. His man, Shefflin, doesn't need to and can afford to ghost into a position to collect the breaks.

If I recall, Shefflin got a few of his scores from out on the wing. A centre back who concentrates too much on man-marking would be easily pulled out of position and far worse problems would occur.

[Offalys Future]

bord na mona man i appreciate with what you are saying in regards to a centre back holding his position, but when sheeflin got his scores either oakley or brady were also in the centre and kenny was behind shefflin for the scores.
i'm not blaming david kenny, for so young to be hurling centre back on the best hurler in the country was never going to be easy.

[Plain of the Herbs]

It’s all very well sitting down watching a recording of the game and ‘ticking boxes, ticking boxes, ticking boxes’ to paraphrase Brian Cody, but I would like to point out a few shortcomings with this hurling by numbers method of analysis.

Firstly, defenders are judged by the number of scores they concede, or frees conceded. Fair enough. But it doesn’t give due recognition to hard work done by a defender (or attacker, for that matter). I’m thinking of the number of times David Kenny caught the ball over Shefflin’s head. Or Ger Oakley’s fielding. Or hooking and blocking. On the other hand, it doesn’t account for the quality of ball delivered. Kevin Brady’s skied clearances for instance. Offaly rarely played a diagonal ball, or played into the corners.

It also cites the scorer’s immediate marker for the concession of a score, which maybe is a bit harsh. For instance, Kilkenny’s first score is attributed to Paul Cleary, but one could just as easily point the finger at the full forward who let his man storm in front of him to deliver the clearance, or the fella who delivered the loose ball in the first instance.

The study also takes no cognisance of the quality of the opposition, either individually or collectively. For example, David Kenny conceding 2 points to his direct opponent looks bad on the face of it, until you see that direct opponent was Henry Shefflin. We all know Martin Comerford is a very difficult forward to mark, and Cleary is entitled to look outfield at the source and quality of the supply. I don’t think anything would have been gained by withdrawing Cleary. Would Rory Hanniffy have marked Shefflin as well as David Kenny did? Personally, I don’t think so. I may be wrong, but Shefflin’s two scores from play came early in the game.

As regards the forwards, it considers merely scores made, assists, wides hit and frees conceded. It doesn’t give credit to a forward who hunts like a dog, slowing down clearances. Equally it doesn’t fault a forward who’s man clears the ball frequently. A tick against a forward who hits a wide doesn’t account for the difficulty of the shot in terms of pressure applied and shot selection. I’m thinking of Joseph Bergin’s early second half shot from an impossible angle as against, say, Brian Carroll’s first half snap shot driven wide under heavy pressure.

I can think of some hurlers dropped from the panel at Christmas who would score relatively highly on a survey such as this, but who’s workrate around the field would be deficient.

Merely pointing out puckouts caught doesn’t take into account puckouts pulled on, or breaks won. Neither does it state how Offaly performed on Kilkenny’s puckout. Who is cited for the scores that came when Ryan pucked out short to Tyrrell?

It would also be interesting to see which Kilkenny hurlers were clocking up the fouls.

As the saying goes, there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As regards the midfield issue, I would usually prefer to have a forward and a back line out at midfield, such as the Murphy – Teehan combination, particularly when Murphy bursts forward a lot.

[Offalys Future]

Firstly, defenders are judged by the number of scores they concede, or frees conceded. Fair enough. But it doesn’t give due recognition to hard work done by a defender (or attacker, for that matter). I’m thinking of the number of times David Kenny caught the ball over Shefflin’s head. Or Ger Oakley’s fielding. Or hooking and blocking. On the other hand, it doesn’t account for the quality of ball delivered. Kevin Brady’s skied clearances for instance. Offaly rarely played a diagonal ball, or played into the corners.

I never said David Kenny Kevin Brady or Oakley didnt clear balls or catch balls over lads heads. But isnt that there job. There job is to clear the ball and to stop their men from scoring.

Kilkenny’s first score is attributed to Paul Cleary, but one could just as easily point the finger at the full forward who let his man storm in front of him to deliver the clearance, or the fella who delivered the loose ball in the first instance.

Kilkennys first score was scored because paul cleary was too slow and martin comeford caught and scored.

I don’t think anything would have been gained by withdrawing Cleary.

Are you kidding me? Paul Cleary is not good enough for intercounty hurling, he reminds me of joe brady a few years ago. He just isnt good enough, he got cleaned against Kilkenny and was one of the main reasons that we lost the game.

As regards the forwards, it considers merely scores made, assists, wides hit and frees conceded. It doesn’t give credit to a forward who hunts like a dog, slowing down clearances. Equally it doesn’t fault a forward who’s man clears the ball frequently.
A tick against a forward who hits a wide doesn’t account for the difficulty of the shot in terms of pressure applied and shot selection. I’m thinking of Joseph Bergin’s early second half shot from an impossible angle as against, say, Brian Carroll’s first half snap shot driven wide under heavy pressure.

This goes back to the whole coaching - you shouldnt be striking under heavy pressure.
A forwards job is to defend when they dont have the ball - which they are not able to do, as yo can see gary haniffy gave away three frees, shae dooley 2 and both their men scored a point each from play.
It is also to create space, and get yourself in a position to assist in a score or score yourself.

I can think of some hurlers dropped from the panel at Christmas who would score relatively highly on a survey such as this, but who’s workrate around the field would be deficient.

you can? well them name them? because if you know hurlers in the county at present that if they are defenders they will stop their man from scoring or setting up scores and dont give away frees.
And if you know forwards that will win frees and score points then you might forward their names on to john mcintyre.

Merely pointing out puckouts caught doesn’t take into account puckouts pulled on, or breaks won. Neither does it state how Offaly performed on Kilkenny’s puckout. Who is cited for the scores that came when Ryan pucked out short to Tyrrell?

If you really want to know in the first half
mullins hit 17 puckouts
2 were direct wins (caught)
4 were breaking ball win
4 were direct loss
7 were breaking ball loss

In 2nd half
mullins hit 20 puckouts
1 was drect win
5 were breaking ball win
1 was direct loss
13 were breaking ball loss

Therefore out of 37 puckouts
Offaly lost 25
Offaly won 12

Statistics like the above show that unless you prepare properly and have a game plan and each player knows exactly what their role is you havent a hope in hell.
This hasnt happened in Offaly and it looks like things arent changing either.

I will go further to say and plain of the herbs you can hold onto this quote

Offaly will lose to either Limerick or Tipperary
Offaly will lose to Cork by less than what they lose to the above team
Offaly will lose to Dublin in the final qualifier game

Then hopefully,
when this happens we will get rid of that joke of a manager and his two selectors.
The county board will open their eyes and start realising the mistakes they have made for the last 20 years.
And will make the changes needed.
And then and only then will we ever be able to even have some sort of chance of winning a leinster championship again at any level in hurling

[juteman]

way too many stats for me - it's hurling not american football.Is it not that Kilkenny are simply better than us and 29-31 other counties also.
Richie Bennis would have some craic at those stats

[Offalys Future]

Richie Bennis
Ya i'm sure Richie would have a good laugh at them. But what has ricjie bennis ever won as manager? And what do you think he will win as manager?
enough said.

As for 29-31 other counties better than Offaly in hurling.
what country you living in? certainly not Ireland

[Fido]

Is it not that Kilkenny are simply better than us and 29-31 other counties also.

I think he meant that Kilkenny are better than 29 - 31 other counties (allowing for Waterford and Cork I assume), and not that 29 -31 counties are better than us.
Not that I'm bothered or wanted to fight someone elses battles, just wanted to get promoted to Junior B. Yesssssssssss!!!!!!!!

[Plain of the Herbs]

Remember - a good team will coach themselves, and it isn't as if the county has hurlers with All-Ireland potential springing up like mushrooms.

I know it's difficult to compare different eras, but how many of the current team would make either of Offaly's All-Ireland winning teams? Not many, I think.

As for the statistics, statistics on their own mean nothing. They are only of use when compared to tallies from other matches. This is where the figures don't stack up. These figures wouldn't mean much to an alien or someone who wouldn't know hurling. How do they compare to the 'meltdown match' of two years ago, being the nearest comparable match between the two. However, the greater heart and drive shown in O'Moore Park wouldn't necessarily be evident from statistics.

Admit it, Of. You've got a gripe with the manager because he dropped your friends. It's personal and, whether deliberate or not, you make that abundantly clear to the reader. I would point out that few if any of those left off have shown they can cut it at intercounty level based on their performances to date, and most got enough chances to perform. Most can't save their clubs. You single out Dylan Hayden for leaving and not returning as proof of the inadequecies of the management. But why then did Mullins, Cordial and Murray answer the call and return? That's three against one. How many others were asked back? How many others declined when asked?

[Lone Shark]

Offaly’s Future, first up fair play for putting all the effort into this. It’s fair to say that there are a lot of readers out there who mightn’t be posting, but appreciate that you’re not just making a counterpoint, you’re doing your best to stand by it and back it up. Many of the posters last week indicated at the very least partial support for your position and in some cases almost full support, so by all means please keep it going.

That said, it would be remiss of me as someone who is coming at things from the other side to not try and debunk some of the stuff you’ve covered there. Interestingly that while I would agree that the success rate of the current management in terms of results has not been good enough, one thing that I would not have faulted John McIntyre for up to now was his use of substitutions during the game. The NHL match against Wexford in Birr last Spring in particular comes to mind, when he tried four different people at full forward by the start of the second half until he finally figured out how to stop Darragh Ryan from lording it and clearing every ball. I do think that his decisions actually didn’t work against Kilkenny. In terms of the actual switches that you highlighted….

Moving Bergin from FF – Not sure about this. Derek Molloy won the penalty when he went in there, and Bergin is a lot more likely to score from 50m out than Molloy is. Also Bergin entered the game as our marquee forward. We had to do whatever it took to get him into the game.

Taking off Teehan – unless he was injured and we just don’t know, then I completely agree. Cordial came on, buzzed around like a wasp but did nothing to curtail Cha’s influence at all. Teehan’s greater defensive instinct would have been a lot more welcome.

Leaving 3 and 6 unchanged – I agree with Cleary, not with Kenny. The centre back’s primary job is to win puckouts and to hold his position – Kenny did that. Most commentators (Mulcahy on the Sunday Game, Nicky English on the radio are the two that come to mind) made reference to his excellent debut, and I would go along with the view that Shefflin’s scores weren’t down to him. I might go along with your view if we had a 28 year old Hubert Rigney or Pat Delaney on the bench, but we didn’t. Kenny deserved to stay on till the end. Paul Cleary is still our long term full back, and I certainly don’t subscribe to your view that he’s not good enough. That said he’s not having a great year, and Gorta is as tough a man to mark as there is in the modern game. Cleary wasn’t the first man to struggle with it and he won’t be the last. However he was struggling, and someone else should have been tried. I was quite shocked when Mickey Harte withdrew Cormac McGinley after only fifteen minutes against Donegal and moved Conor Gormley back there. However it was a big step towards the winning of the game for them, and while he might not get picked the next day, that’s not Harte’s way of saying to McGinley that he’ll never play for Tyrone again – just that McFadden was killing him.

No game plan for the start of the second half – Again, I’m not sure. There was an obvious case for trying to keep things as they were, and I’d say the last thing the team needed was more hyping up. That said we did need to try and bring the misfiring forwards into the game more and to stop Kilkenny rattling up rakes of scores, but it didn’t happen.

Taking Bergin off – I think McIntyre did the right thing here. Again, just because you’re a talented player does not mean that you have a great day every day. Changes were needed, and maybe the greater experience of Rory and Gary was preferable. I’m not saying that I’d have done the same, merely that I see the logic. Molloy was playing well, Carroll was in the backs, Murray was nailing every free and the forwards needed a change. You can see why Bergin got the nod, if not agree with the call.

My big issues with him was not dropping Carroll deeper rather than playing him as a fourth half back, not switching Cleary and switching Teehan. If Rory wasn't working up front, why not switch him with Carroll? Carroll was one of the few lads that had raised a flag, he's a proven forward and it could have given Rory some time on the ball that could have brought him into the game? Anyway....


To take other points from your summary, I can see the logic with what you’re doing with a lot of them, but even so I’d disagree with several.

]My own view on the team is that we need to put Rory Haniffy centre back, he just cant perform in the half forward line

He can and has performed in the half forward line, however I would like to see him in the half back line – at 5. Kenny/Horan will hold the middle, leaving Hanniffy a lot more freedom to attack if the chance arises. Our best ever hurler of all time hurled in that position, so it’s hardly fair to say that you can’t influence the game enough from there.

I don’t like the idea of Kenny at full back – he’s still a little bit inclined to get caught in possession or blocked down. Hanrahan for Lusmagh took a couple of scores of him this way last month, so I wouldn’t agree with this at all. Centre back, or possibly in the longer term, centre forward for Kenny. If you must replace Cleary – and if anything it’s due to second season syndrome – it has to be O’Meara in my estimation.

]Teehan and Murphy should be restored to midfield

Yup – no argument with that.

]I think Derek Molloy is great in the air but lacks hurling skills but that’s where a good manager comes in

You can’t honestly be suggesting that a guy could learn hurling skills once he gets picked on the senior county panel? That’s not management’s job, that’s his U-12 trainer’s job. Molloy is what he is, and there is a role for that. Incidentally it’s a bit harsh to say that aerial skill is not a “hurling skill” It’s that kind of attitude that’s causing us problems. A big lad who lords the skies might not be as aesthetically pleasing as a “fine wristy hurler, as such” but he is the king of the modern game. Offaly seem to be the only county that can’t grasp this.

]Sean Ryan maybe (he lacks the hurling though), Ciaran Slevin and Daniel Currans are too more that the management should look at.

Sean Ryan is a great young lad that I’ve a lot of time for, but he looks like he’s just about holding his place on the Birr team. He’ll be an intercounty footballer a lot quicker than he’ll be an intercounty hurler. Ciarán Slevin needs to start leading K/K and prove his ability with them before there can be talk of him being handed a county shirt – and as for Currams, he’ll get his chance, but the lad’s only a minor – he has so far to go it’s not funny.

]We have the players at the very minimum to reach the All-Ireland Quarter Finals, but I am afraid we just don’t have the management capable of getting the best out of the players and implementing a game plan that will bring out the best in these players and give us the opportunity to compete at the highest level.

Let’s be clear about this – you say that the players are good enough to reach a quarter final “at a minimum”. Well in all likelihood to do this, we’ll have to win in Tipperary and beat Dublin at home, since winning a championship game in the Páirc is something even KK would find a huge ask. So by making this assertion you’re saying that our players are better than Tipp’s (or Limerick, but I believe it’ll be Tipp) and good enough to win on their home patch. I really think that’s pushing it myself. No matter what manager we had we’d be 4/1 or bigger to win that game.

bord na mona man i appreciate with what you are saying in regards to a centre back holding his position, but when sheeflin got his scores either oakley or brady were also in the centre and kenny was behind shefflin for the scores.

Then the problem is with Oakley and Brady stepping into Kenny’s turf. It should have been the job of Carroll, Murphy and Teehan/Cordial to sweep up the loose ball in front, and the full back line to get out in front and get the stuff in behind. The wing backs should be minding their own territory. Normally I’d blame the centre back here for not telling the lads to get the f**k out of his area, but as a debutant it’s hardly unreasonable to suggest that Kenny might have been shy about this.



Overall I’m still of the opinion that this management team is doing a reasonable job with middling players 80% of the time. We have this tendency to throw in a woeful display 20% of the time and I would fault them for that, but overall we just have to accept that we don’t have the raw materials that other counties do and set about working on addressing that balance in the future – within the constraints that apply to a small county like ours.

[azoffaly]

I think this is spot on POTH

Admit it, Of. You've got a gripe with the manager because he dropped your friends. It's personal and, whether deliberate or not, you make that abundantly clear to the reader

Either that, or he was dropped himself. Either way it seems to me that Offaly's Future is way too hyper-critical of the current set up, and his genuinely good points get lost in the maelstrom.

[Offalys Future]

[quoteRemember - a good team will coach themselves[/quote]

What sort of a statement is that, sher then why is Brian cody in kk, or gerald mccarthy in cork, why is there managers full stop. makes sense will ya for gods sake.

I know it's difficult to compare different eras, but how many of the current team would make either of Offaly's All-Ireland winning teams? Not many, I think.

again make some sense

However, the greater heart and drive shown in O'Moore Park wouldn't necessarily be evident from statistics.

heat and drive dont win games. scores and how they are achieved and prevented win games

Admit it, Of. You've got a gripe with the manager because he dropped your friends. It's personal and, whether deliberate or not, you make that abundantly clear to the reader.

Again you are wrong which you seem to be alot on this forum.
It is obvious to me that you are involved at some level at county board level and you dont like me criticising them or th management.
This is the exact problem in offaly, silly people like yourself that might have alot of intrest in hurling but have very little knowledge of hurling.

You should stick to your pre match preview that tells us nothing and let other people get involved in hurling discussions that you have little or no knowledge of.

BTW
In over 2 weeks i havent mentioned dylan hayden or any past players but you continue to bring them up.

[Offalys Future]

No game plan for the start of the second half – Again, I’m not sure. There was an obvious case for trying to keep things as they were, and I’d say the last thing the team needed was more hyping up. That said we did need to try and bring the misfiring forwards into the game more and to stop Kilkenny rattling up rakes of scores, but it didn’t happen.

hyping up? i never said anything about hyping up i hust said that there should have been a game plan in place that would give us a chance of competing in the second half.

As for the misfiring forwards - they will always be misfiring forward unless they know what they are doing when they get the ball

He can and has performed in the half forward line, however I would like to see him in the half back line – at 5. Kenny/Horan will hold the middle, leaving Hanniffy a lot more freedom to attack if the chance arises. Our best ever hurler of all time hurled in that position, so it’s hardly fair to say that you can’t influence the game enough from there.

yeah maybe, but i dont think brady or oakley should be switched now so the only place he can go is the centre.

I don’t like the idea of Kenny at full back – he’s still a little bit inclined to get caught in possession or blocked down. Hanrahan for Lusmagh took a couple of scores of him this way last month, so I wouldn’t agree with this at all. Centre back, or possibly in the longer term, centre forward for Kenny. If you must replace Cleary – and if anything it’s due to second season syndrome – it has to be O’Meara in my estimation.

Ya maybe o meara could do a job there, i do think though that Cleary has to go. Kenny though is young and if he was COACHED in that position he might do okay

]I think Derek Molloy is great in the air but lacks hurling skills but that’s where a good manager comes in

You can’t honestly be suggesting that a guy could learn hurling skills once he gets picked on the senior county panel? That’s not management’s job, that’s his U-12 trainer’s job. Molloy is what he is, and there is a role for that. Incidentally it’s a bit harsh to say that aerial skill is not a “hurling skill” It’s that kind of attitude that’s causing us problems. A big lad who lords the skies might not be as aesthetically pleasing as a “fine wristy hurler, as such” but he is the king of the modern game. Offaly seem to be the only county that can’t grasp this.

This goes back to the whole coaching setup in the county, why doesnt he have the hurling skills?
Molloy will do damage when he is exposed with his marker and the high all comes, thats how he won the penalty and frees against kk.

Sean Ryan is a great young lad that I’ve a lot of time for, but he looks like he’s just about holding his place on the Birr team. He’ll be an intercounty footballer a lot quicker than he’ll be an intercounty hurler. Ciarán Slevin needs to start leading K/K and prove his ability with them before there can be talk of him being handed a county shirt – and as for Currams, he’ll get his chance, but the lad’s only a minor – he has so far to go it’s not funny.

We all know the politics that goes on in birr so i wouldnt make much of an issue with that.
Sean ryan should have been brought into the county panel 6 months ago not a month ago.
Ciaran Slevin, like i said just because you hurl a good or bad club game in offaly that doesnt make you a good hurler.

Let’s be clear about this – you say that the players are good enough to reach a quarter final “at a minimum”. Well in all likelihood to do this, we’ll have to win in Tipperary and beat Dublin at home, since winning a championship game in the Páirc is something even KK would find a huge ask. So by making this assertion you’re saying that our players are better than Tipp’s (or Limerick, but I believe it’ll be Tipp) and good enough to win on their home patch. I really think that’s pushing it myself. No matter what manager we had we’d be 4/1 or bigger to win that game.

Yes we have the players at our disposal to reach a all-ireland quarter final at least.
but we dont have -
the management team to get the best out of the players
the management team to pick the best players
the management team to coach our best players
the management team to get toan all-ireland quarter final

The wing backs should be minding their own territory. Normally I’d blame the centre back here for not telling the lads to get the f**k out of his area, but as a debutant it’s hardly unreasonable to suggest that Kenny might have been shy about this.

shy? this is intercounty hurling for gods sake against the all-ireland champions.


Overall i firmly believe we have hurlers good enough in our county, the attitude of some of the players leaves alot to be desired but the majority of them are in the right frame of mind.
But it goes back to the management team, and until the qualifiers are over they will remain in charge.
Its going to be a tough month lads.

[Plain of the Herbs]

I would like to clarify for those here who have not met me that I have no connection with the Offaly County Board.

I have always merely given my opinion here, and have never sought to ram my opinions down peoples' throats. Hurling is an ameteur game for those who play it, they train hard for little or no reward. My part is to go along on a Saturday or Sunday as an observer and follow it up with an exchange of views in the local that night, or on this forum later in the week. I don't take it any more seriously than that.

There are many who's views I respect here and I look forward to meeting ye again at the forthcoming qualifiers, but I will not be ranted and raved at with comments such as those below. Life is too short and I don't need the hassle.

Over and out.

Again you are wrong which you seem to be alot on this forum.
It is obvious to me that you are involved at some level at county board level and you dont like me criticising them or th management.
This is the exact problem in offaly, silly people like yourself that might have alot of intrest in hurling but have very little knowledge of hurling.

You should stick to your pre match preview that tells us nothing and let other people get involved in hurling discussions that you have little or no knowledge of.

BTW
In over 2 weeks i havent mentioned dylan hayden or any past players but you continue to bring them up.

[Offalys Future]

Well if you dont want to be "ranted and raved at" then dont make accusations about other members of the forum like below which are i might add untrue.

I wanted to know more and i have found out, your not a trainer, manager, player or analyst. Therfore your opinion is like any other guy up on the stands or in the pub on a sat or sun nite.

Admit it, Of. You've got a gripe with the manager because he dropped your friends. It's personal and, whether deliberate or not, you make that abundantly clear to the reader.