League & Championship hurling 2022

[Dunga]

Birr often have teams warm up across the road.

[greenairfield]

The warm up debate is silly.

In OCP you warm up on a patch of grass behind the pitch no bigger than a large garden until 15 minutes before throw in.

In Portloise you warm up in pitch behind the field then you are allowed on the field 15 minutes before hand.

In Birr you warm up across the road until 15 minutes before the throw in.

In croke Park they have a warm up area no bigger than a sitting room - Until 15/20 minutes before throw in.

All pitches are the same when it's that time of the year as they are trying to protect the field for the match.

[frankthetank]

Birr often have teams warm up across the road.

Yes, in the middle of Spring when pitch is wet and outch needs to be looked after for upcoming season.

Wont be an issue for a game in early October which doubles as the last club game of the year on it.

[Lone Shark]

Just to address a few of LS points:
1. Why do Birr need a warm up area? To the best of my knowledge teams are well able to warm up on the pitch. It's actually only in OCP where this is an issue as they literally lock teams off the pitch until 15 minutes before throw in. Pretty low respect levels for clubs there.

You need a warm up area for a county final, because either a minor game or lower tier final will be on before it, so you won't be able to allow teams onto the field at the time when they would want to do their warm up drills. It's different for a standalone game. And yes, teams can warm up across the road - but having to cross the N62 in football boots before a big game is not ideal. But as I mentioned above, it's a small thing, and there is a year there to come up with a better solution, and I have faith in Birr GAA to come up with one. I'm not for a minute trying to make this into a big thing.

2. Last year's county final attendance was 2,900. Covid or not county final attendances have been steadily dropping over the last decade and last year's attendance was terrible. The venue for the final is the predominant reason for this.

All across the board - at group games, at knockout games, at underage games, at finals, and regardless of venue, attendances were down significantly last year. I heard a number of 40% across the board here in Offaly, but that wasn't an official source, so it might be a bit out. Whether that was directly due to covid concerns and people didn't want to go to stand with crowds, or whether it was indirectly and the need for buying tickets, I don't know. Also, it was a bad pairing from the point of view of attendance. So it's plainly incorrect to say that the venue is a factor.

Anyway, my core point is that we will be able to compare 2022 and 2023, and it's no harm to have a framework in advance of what the numbers should be. I'll be the first to admit that if the attendance for this year's final is less than 5,000, regardless of which two teams makes it, then that's a poor showing. Just as I would excuse the poor crowd last year, I won't this year, for different reasons.

3. Atmosphere being a moot point - you're having a laugh. Going to a match as a paying punter is all about experiencing the occasion. To have it enjoyable as possible. Which would you have preferred - This year's minor All Ireland in Croke Park or Nowlan Park. I think we all know it was a brilliant occasion helped by the "immeasurable" atmosphere.

Atmosphere is moot FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS DEBATE because you can't measure it. Sometimes it's a product of the nature of the game - Offaly vs Tipperary went down to the wire in Kilkenny this year, as we all know only too well. However unless it manifests itself in the form of more supporters paying in the gate, then it's moot. Of course we all enjoy games when the crowd gets into it, and yes, a "full house" of 6,000 is better than 6,000 in a venue that caters for 20,000. But like the warm up area thing, that's one of a lot of small factors, not a big one.

4. Better comfort for spectators....? Really? If I want to stand in OCP I can. Guess what? I can also stand in Birr. If I want to sit down in OCP I can. Guess what? I also can in Birr. The only difference for spectators is toilet facilities. And considering the average attendee at a county final probably spends an average 60 seconds in the bathroom it's not exactly a red line issue.

The stand in Tullamore seats 7,000 people. The stand in Birr seats what,1,500? If county final day has the sun splitting the rocks, then that's likely no problem, everyone who wants to sit down will be able to. If the forecast is bleak, or if it's raining on the day, then it's plainly incorrect to say if you want to sit down in Birr, you can. If the game throws in at 3pm, the stand will be full by 2.15pm in that case, and probably earlier. Lots of people, including the elderly, will realise that they can either stand and get wet, or go home.

And I would disagree with your 60 second assertion when it comes to a county final day with 6,000 people or so in the place. It's 60 seconds at half time on a normal club championship day, when there is something between 700 and 1,000 people there. I can't remember the last time I was there for a crowd of 5,000 or more, presumably a club final back in the mid 2000s, but there is no way that amount of toilets will handle that crowd. Portaloos will be needed as well.

LS, your posts here are always excellent. Really balanced and informative and I constantly enjoy reading them. But you have to admit you have a serious bias towards OCP in this argument.

One of the biggest problems in modern society today is that people pick a side on a debate, and they never change their mind when the facts change. Whether it's political parties, social issues or what have you, people are increasingly unable to process information that forces them to say "I was wrong on that".

I have many flaws, but I'm quite proud of the fact that I don't fall into that trap, and I have changed my mind on this. However, despite this, at this stage, everyone is convinced that I'm still rabidly in favour of all games in OCP, and I'd let Birr go to hell. Absolutely not.

When this debate started, Birr wanted ground rent for the venue, they hadn't got a Slattery report saying that the ground was capable of taking sufficient crowds, and the pitch was one of the most prone in the county to getting waterlogged at short notice, if there was a lot of rain in a short period of time. Most of all, there were times when, and I'll be as kind as I can here, there were eyebrow-raising gate returns to the county board, relative to the number of people that actually appeared to go in for games. I remember one underage game in particular where people were on this board raving about the atmosphere and the attendance, and the official attendance figure submitted was under 500. It was in these circumstances that I said that playing the county final in Birr, or any big games really, would be the wrong decision, pure and simple.

The facts have changed. I still wouldn't like putting a big game in Birr in February, but that's not an issue for the county final. The club now presents a clean venue to the CB for big games, they don't look for ground rent, and everything is done exactly as it should be on match day. The current Birr executive is made up (from what I can tell) of excellent people that want to develop a proper, modern GAA club, and they have done incredible, commendable work on the venue.

That is why I'm actually quite happy to see the 2023 final be played in Birr - I think they have done everything right and deserve it, and when we have attendances from 2022 and 2023 to compare, then we can start talking about the finals from 2024 through to 2026 and beyond. But it's why it's also important to have a clear idea in mind what it "par" when it comes to a fair attendance.

But maybe you could actually see that just because I had one opinion on this matter ten years ago, doesn't mean that I have the same opinion now.

[Dunga]

Well said Lone Shark, I myself am happy with the final being in birr in 2023 and perhaps further on, you have made some great points there though.

[Fairplayalways]

another "what if" but if Ballinamere reached this years final would it have been in Birr I wonder?..I doubt it...its a bit like the economic crash reaction now in ways, all the money spent on Tullamore and no county final being played there, another debate I know, personally I prefer Birr myself..always did..each to their own as they say.

[private joker]

Tullamore is a far better venue, birr has nostalgia. I know if I'm a player where I'd want to play. I'd rather be on the "patch of grass" out the back of tullamore than walking up to the primary school to warmup. Dressing rooms near where you warmup is key as is size of dressing rooms. Birr's dressing rooms are tiny where as tullamure's are very spacious. But the Birr club have done huge work and regardless of venue, I'll be going to watch the county final.

There was a comment in one of the posts about the change of venue being a win for clubs in South offaly. Hopefully it might inspire some of the clubs to get their act together and start producing a higher standard of hurling in the club championship.

[Fairplayalways]

I think like me most thought at the initial headline it was this year's final..

[greenairfield]

Lone shark some of your points are based on information from about 7 or 8 years ago and aren't up to date.

Birr warm up area is not across the n62 it's in school pitch the other side of the ground.

The ground now holds over 12,000 and the stands holds between 2 and 3000 not 1500 like you said.


When was the last time you were in SBP out of interest ?

[Lone Shark]

Lone shark some of your points are based on information from about 7 or 8 years ago and aren't up to date.

Birr warm up area is not across the n62 it's in school pitch the other side of the ground.

The ground now holds over 12,000 and the stands holds between 2 and 3000 not 1500 like you said.


When was the last time you were in SBP out of interest ?

Was last in SBP this April for the Offaly ladies football league final vs Limerick. I had a few commentary gigs there this year, though I did miss the Cork game. Happy to be corrected on the warm up area bit, but again, to repeat, that's a problem that I fully believe can be overcome, with the will to do so.

I had heard 11,000 capacity from a Birr executive member, not 12,000, but either way, that's not the issue either. Back in the day, there was a financial cost to sailing too close to the wind in terms of capacity, because if the likely attendance was more than 66% of the ground's capacity, the gardaí used to insist on going all-ticket. When SBP had an official capacity of 7,000 or so for a while, that was a factor, in terms of ruling out a walk-up crowd. But all games are now all-ticket, so that aspect is moot.

However the stand capacity issue is not a small thing. I was only guessing at 1,500 based on pictures (hence the question mark, I wasn't pretending to know!), but even if you told me that 2,000 would fit in it, that would still be a problem on a wet day. And there's no way it's much more than that.

A quick Google image search shows 7 "blocks" in the stand, and from what I can tell, 16 rows in a block. My guess based on memory and pictures is you might squeeze in 20 people to a row? That works out at 2240, of which the first couple of rows would be exposed to the elements anyway.

And again - my point is not that this should disqualify Birr from getting a county final. Absolutely not. My point is that if the attendance data shows little or no difference with Tullamore finals, then stuff like this should be considered.

[greenairfield]

LS but its not just about figures of attendance and apparenty the feeling of the county board is to give the traditional hurling area where most county finals been won hurling matches in SBP I really dont think this is a crime and all it does is give more visability to hurling all over the county.

[private joker]

Tradition is created. North offaly coming to the fore. Colaiste choilm lost to kierans by two points in leinster league.

[Lone Shark]

LS but its not just about figures of attendance and apparenty the feeling of the county board is to give the traditional hurling area where most county finals been won hurling matches in SBP I really dont think this is a crime and all it does is give more visability to hurling all over the county.

Pretty sure no-one suggested criminality is afoot here.

I'm a firm believer in democracy, and if this is the will of the elected executive, and endorsed by the delegates of the club in the form of the county board, then of course it should happen. The "traditional area" argument cuts both ways, since for every person that would maintain that the county final should be played in that area because it's where the interest is greatest, another person would argue that Offaly hurling is making much bigger strides around Tullamore, and because that area doesn't have the same tradition, they need extra support in the form of promotion, and the location of the county final falls into that.

And it's because arguments like that are so difficult to define and measure, that I keep falling back on the same thing - if there is a statistically significant increase in attendances from playing games in one venue as opposed to the other, then I would tend to believe that's where the majority of games should be, and I don't think anyone would disagree with that. To be honest, at this stage, I think the only contentious aspect is what happens if the evidence suggests that there is no noticeable difference in attendance numbers. In that case, then yes, I do think it's not unreasonable to bring the overall quality of the facilities into play, both for players and for supporters.

[greenairfield]

Is it about money for the county board or promoting the game surely we both agree which is more important????

Promote the game in the Tullamore area promote the game in the Birr area county final every second year its fair and makes most sense.

[Lone Shark]

I've no idealogical objection to that idea - again, subject to the caveat that there's a lot of promotion you could do with 1,000 extra people at the gate paying €20 to get in, so if there is a bump of that scale going to Birr, then of course that would be a huge point in their favour.

However if there is little or no difference, then yeah, I think the ability to seat the full attendance under cover in the event of heavy rain is a huge plus for playing the game in Tullamore. Not everyone is going to want to be there for an hour before throw in to get a seat, particularly if you have to keep small kids entertained etc.