U21 hurling championship..

[sean1976]

LS, you brought up chris mcdonald as an example, what use is it to him, playing u21 b, marking a player who may not even make a clubs 2nd or even 3rd string team? he will not help him, as he will get into the habit of doing things at a slower pace, and it will also turn the weaker lads off hurling completely, as he gets roasted by a good hurler. its as simple as that. anyway, the correct me if im wrong but with this particular amalgamation, at minor level, the clubs also enter a team in the b championship aswel??. and if the county board were interested in the future secretary etc, should they not have let b/mere regrade more lads last week? im not sure on the figures, but according to a man in nowlan park on sunday, they have something like 29 lads only elegible for intermediate hurling in 2011, which is a shocking statistic. realistically, there are going to probably be 7 or 8 lads who wont get a run all year, and some games where up to 12 lads could be left on the bench. how frustrating would this be on those lads.

and to be honest bazza i was specifically talking about underage teams. i know for a fact that some clubs have trouble getting u21 teams together aswel. lads "arent bothered" and when you have to spend the time ringing lads in the town, il tell you its not an easy job.

offaly hurling is not dead and gone, it just needs a kick up the backside.

[Long John]

Have to agree with the anti amalgamationers here. Look at Ballinamere gaels for instance. They were able to field their own separate teams all up through underage up to minor so I dont see any need for these sort of amalgamations. So your looking at a team made up of Ballinamere, Clara, Tubber, Ballycumber and Pullagh. That is a serious pick of players. Its unfair on weaker players from the individual clubs who would like to play but havent a hope with this sort of arrangement.

Shamrocks is a club that have been struggling for numbers and have failed to fulfill u21 fixtures over the last couple of years but I wouldnt be in anyway for them amalgamating in such a way. The reason for lack of numbers is more to do with a lack of interest from young lads more so than anything else. If there were genuine cases of a club that just hadnt numbers in their parish then fair enough the few players that want to play should be given a chance with a neighbouring club but I think it should be the last resort.

Kevin Corrigan is all for these divisional teams. I think its utter crap. Your club is your club. You should do the best for your club at whatever grade its at and try get them to the highest level possible. This glory hunting crap is sickening to see. Winning a junior medal with your fellow parish folk should mean a hell of alot more than winning a senior title with lads you barely know and lets be honest about it, team colleagues you could not give a damn about. Maybe thats a view not shared here but its something I think the GAA is losing.

[backofthenet]

I cannot understand why teams who can field 15 players want to imalgamate...the one great thing about underage hurling especially is that you are generally carrying one or two lads who may not be as good as the rest but try their heart out as much as anyone...they can develop to be some of the best players in the club. To rob one of them of the opportunity to play under 21 hurling at such an important stage in a hurlers developement is short sighted and quite frankly stupid.
My own club Coolderry are in the final again this year...I may be wrong but to my knowledge we are the only club not amalgamated for this years championship??
Now how can a small rural place like Coolderry field a team on our own, and Birr, Shinrone, Banagher, Kilcormac, Tullamore with vast amounts of youth at their disposal cant or wont??!!
So in the final are St Davids, who comprise of Ballinamere, Brosna Gaels...who themselves are an amalgamation & Clara. I even heard there was someone from Tubber??? Whilst it is great to be in a final, the clubs should be looking five years down the line...if they continue down this road, Clara & Ballinamere who are intermediate will only have 4-5 players playing U21 every year at best...whilst Coolderry will have 15 even though it means playing some 16 year olds!! They are getting underage success at the expense of senior grade success further down the line...it will lead to them competing less at senior level...and if your first team isnt doing it its all downhill from there.
It is also inherriently unfair on the teams that dont amalgamate, Why should Coolderry play 16 and 17 year olds to make up a team when 5-6 clubs in the north can join up and to try and win something.

I wonder if Coolderry, Birr, Kilcormac, Shinrone & Kinnitty joined up to start an under 21 football team would the north offaly people be so happy!!

[townman]

i don't think they would be to worried as st micheals win the under 21 most years and thats Rhode,Clonmore, ST.Brigids together
i see your point on teams amalgate and coolderry on their own ourselfs are st brendans but in all fairness most years its a all Birr team.
i don't mind if lads from clubs that can't field an under 21 team get a chance to play with a team who has an under 21 team.

last year people were saying that seir kierans had the pick of Drumcullen and gracefield in all fairness gracefield had one who was a
sub in the 3 games again coolderry. i remember going to a under 21 final could have been a B hurling under 21 final in 1991 it was the
same evening i think of the meath Dublin 3 game saga i n 91 anyway lusmagh were playing killeigh/gracefield amalgate but at that match
lusmagh lads and women were giving out about lusmagh having to play to clubs.

i was standing beside kevin Martin the same night and he said that there was just two from Gracefield as they had beaten tullamore in the semil
which bye the way the gracefield player who was in the backs that night i think his name was Tadgh don't know his second name had a great game
and was well able to hurl as kevin beside me had played on him in the semil-final, anyway back to the crowd giving out about the two clubs again lusmagh
and they had inter county hurler john troy in his prime plus pat temple, but lusmagh won a great game in the end Troy got i think about 1-9 the same day
and stoped a penalty in the same game.

so almalgate team doesn't mean you have a really big pick you might get 1 or 2 from a club the rest would be from the one club so i think the more that
plays the hurling the better.

[old yellar]

I think sometimes it's a case of quality v quantity. I do think it's best if clubs field on their own but if this means scrapping together a team of lads who aren't interested, well it has to be looked at. How isn't there an outcry with it on the football?

[keenonsport]

Now how can a small rural place like Coolderry field a team on our own, and Birr, Shinrone, Banagher, Kilcormac, Tullamore with vast amounts of youth at their disposal cant or wont??!!

I think you're missing the point here. I'm sure Birr, Shinrone, Banagher, Kilcormac & Tullamore could and would, all field teams on their own but the problem arises when teams like Ballyskenach, Drumcullen etc. can no longer field a team at this age. Players tend to lose interest at this stage from 18-21 with players going to college, starting work, moving away or for whatever reason and the smaller clubs tend to be hit harder than most. For example, only 3 Ballyskenach players played for the St.Mary's side that lost to Colderry on Saturday - if these players don't play for Shinrone then what do they do for the year? It's only fair to them that they are accommodated on some team.

[Lone Shark]

LS, you brought up chris mcdonald as an example, what use is it to him, playing u21 b, marking a player who may not even make a clubs 2nd or even 3rd string team?

Just to pick up on this point, if Chris McDonald was playing U21 B hurling, he would be marking the single best defender the opposition had to offer. I'm sure every club would have even one player with a bit more potential than unable to make a club's second or third team.

[sean1976]

LS Chris mcdonald is a defender so no 'b' team would have the luxury of putting their best defender on him.

and back of the net, i rememember going to see an underage football game years ago, in which birr were playing, birr had young kelly from coolderry, kinsella from kinnity, coughlan from clareen, i think there was a brady chap from carraig aswell. so birr football is practically a south offaly team, excluding rynaghs. but i dont recall anyone complaining?

and bazza, i dont think its a "glory hunt" because davids will not win the champuinship anyway in 2012(they might do it this year but i expect coolderry to do it), if they lose 3 or 4 of there stronger lads, im not sure if they will have a team as balanced in 2012. like every single club, there are stronger years than others, and just because davids have a strong team in 2011, it doesnt mean we should take the opportunity of a hurling from numerous young lads in north offaly in 2012, 2013 and so on.

as i have said before, i am a tullamore man, and at many a meeting iv heard people whinging about davids. im fed up. for lads who want offaly to go back to winning ways, we need to provide every young lad an opportunity to hurl at the highest level in the county. if that means, giving the likes of edenderry a few pound to send there lads accross to hurl with na fianna or clareen or whoever, let it be. talented lads at "b" level will never get an opportunity to suceed, as they will not be playing at a high enough level to fullfill there potential, and for those who fail to make the a team, they should be hurling in the b, as things stand at minor level.

its not what your county can to for you. its what you can do for your county. and providing young lads an opportunity for "a" hurling, we are improving our chances of competing with the kilkennys, tipps and corks again.



on a side note, when will that u21 final be fixed for??

[Lone Shark]

My apologies for the slip - its doesn't change the substantive point however that if any top class player was playing in U21B, he'd be marking the best player the other team had to offer. They wouldn't just be sauntering through the game marking a lad destined never to play adult hurling or football above Junior B.

If you don't mind me saying so, you're starting from the basis of "the more condensed we make the championship, the better it will be" and going from there, when in actual fact, the issue is that a lot of people on here don't agree with that starting point.

For example:

for lads who want offaly to go back to winning ways, we need to provide every young lad an opportunity to hurl at the highest level in the county. if that means, giving the likes of edenderry a few pound to send there lads accross to hurl with na fianna or clareen or whoever, let it be.

Why?

For the moment I disagree with you, but I'm open to being convinced - however you're not trying to convince me of this, instead you're putting up a load of straw man arguments about Birr and St Davids. I happen to think that Offaly is best served by club teams fielding as many teams as possible, and retaining that sense of pride of place in the club. In the long run, Offaly needs Ballinamere hurling club to be a strong and thriving entity more than it needs a few Ballinamere hurlers to have an improved chance of winning a medal. After all, if it's medals that keep players playing, well no matter how you divide things up, there will only be 24 lads on the panel of the team that wins, whether it's a small parish or the amalgamation of a plethora of clubs.

Indeed the creation of a B grade will allow for more medals to be given out.

You say that a player needs to play at the highest grade possible - I would counter that by saying that a player will have to work just as hard to carry a weak team in B as they would joining up with a load of stronger players to take part in A.

I remain of the view that Offaly needs more people playing and to get the club back to being at the heart of everything. The under-21 grade is treated with disdain in this county, run off like a blitz at times that don't suit lads of that age at all, and I do wonder how much of that is because there are no delegates for St Davids, St Manchans, Wheery, St Broughans or the like, but there are delegates for Ballinamere, Birr, Tubber, Clonbullogue etc. Clubs will look out for themselves, and they won't look after under 21 if it's a distant entity to them.

[backofthenet]

Now how can a small rural place like Coolderry field a team on our own, and Birr, Shinrone, Banagher, Kilcormac, Tullamore with vast amounts of youth at their disposal cant or wont??!!

I think you're missing the point here. I'm sure Birr, Shinrone, Banagher, Kilcormac & Tullamore could and would, all field teams on their own but the problem arises when teams like Ballyskenach, Drumcullen etc. can no longer field a team at this age. Players tend to lose interest at this stage from 18-21 with players going to college, starting work, moving away or for whatever reason and the smaller clubs tend to be hit harder than most. For example, only 3 Ballyskenach players played for the St.Mary's side that lost to Colderry on Saturday - if these players don't play for Shinrone then what do they do for the year? It's only fair to them that they are accommodated on some team.

Thats a different situation, hence i dont include the likes of ballyskenagh, killavilla, etc in the same bracket. My point is that there are clubs that fielded their own underage teams in the recent past Ballinamere being one example who are now amalgamating to make their teams stronger. It may bring short term success but it doesnt last in my opinion, Are you are telling me that Drumcullen will improve because they had one starter in an under 21 final last year instead of having 15 giving it a go and being beat in a qtr final??

@sean1976 Im not sure who this kelly lad is from coolderry...the only one that springs to mind is brian kelly and i dont remember him togging out for a birr football team and i highly doubt it. If this is true though Coolderry havent even as much as an under 8 football team, so any young person who wanted to play the sport would have to play with a different club. This is not the same as St Davids, there you have clubs with underage and senior hurling set ups joining up to try and jump up the ladder rather than put in the foundations needed to get their clubs and offaly hurling more competitive, If they continue down this route it will lead to some underage success i have no doubt, but i think it will also lead to the decline in numbers showing up for their senior sides which makes them less competitive in the medium to long term.

[old yellar]

"You say that a player needs to play at the highest grade possible - I would counter that by saying that a player will have to work just as hard to carry a weak team in B as they would joining up with a load of stronger players to take part in A. "
Loneshark
Does this opinion of yours follow through onto the intercounty scene also??!

[Lone Shark]

"You say that a player needs to play at the highest grade possible - I would counter that by saying that a player will have to work just as hard to carry a weak team in B as they would joining up with a load of stronger players to take part in A. "
Loneshark
Does this opinion of yours follow through onto the intercounty scene also??!

Possibly. I maintain still that I am unconvinced by either side of the debate on this issue and am currently leaning towards more teams and a B championship, however it's a tricky one to assess.

I suppose the equivalent on the intercounty scene is asking which player is having to work harder - the fourteenth name on to the Kerry team sheet, or somebody like Brendan Murphy or Leighton Glynn - a leading light for a division four team.

I don't know the answer but instinctively I would tend to be more impressed by the leading light for the struggling county.

[Certainly Gerry]

Hurling U-21 B Championship didn't do Kevin Martin or John Troy any harm!

[old yellar]

Just curious.. You argued passionately about how going down to div 2 would hamper your hurlers progress with me, surely lads hurling at b level in the club scene would be equivalent? I think you ve to look at the quality lads are exposed to especially in the club scene at underage. I think this leads to lads being found out more then when the go into the county panel. Lads tend to have dominated and have been used to doing it all for the team, one sided etc.. I think it's great to have all clubs hurling on their own, more numbers the better and all that, but as another poster said, 11 of the 15 mightn't be bothered with playing much or training, so this can turn the better lad off. Maybe b with their own clubs, but allow the better lads get better hurling too.

[Sharp Eye]

It is great when smaller clubs come together and enable their players get the benefit of A Hurling. It is, however very wrong that a club like St Rynaghs could afford to leave Five County Minors who started for Offaly last Saturday and recruited Three Strong Physical Players from Belmont. Surely St Rynaghs should not have been allowed recruit players from other clubs