Offaly Senior Hurlers 2023

[italia90]

Slightly off topic but be interesting to see what will happen if Wexford finish bottom of table in Leinster. Will there be a clamour to keep them in?
We had to take our medicine and now 5 year out of picture. Over the next few years we could do without relegation scraps while trying to bed in minor/ 20s.

[private joker]

In the highly likely case that antrim beat westmeath and kk beat wexford, yes, they will be in the joe mcdonagh in 2024. Offaly need to win on Saturday.

[Lone Shark]

I think if there was still five teams in Leinster, as was the case up to and including 2020, this would be the moment when the clamour would come out to make it six. The fact that it would be unworkable from a fixtures point of view to extend it to seven means that they won't be able to make any realistic case for it.

From an Offaly point of view, if we can take care of business and overcome Carlow, it would be a big boost for next year, as it would mean there are two Leinster SHC games where you'd be hopeful of having a 50/50 chance of a win, as opposed to everything resting on one game. It would also be a setback for Wexford, who are probably the "lowest hanging fruit" of the top nine teams right now.

[Lone Shark]

Carlow have had a fair degree of success against Offaly in recent years and will come to Croke Park quietly confident.

It started in 2005 in the league when they beat Offaly in the league, 3-12 to 1-13. The usual shouts of 'new low' and 'rock bottom' rang out.
When the sides met again in the league final Offaly improved and ran up a decent score, but Carlow still scored 4 goals in that game. I remember they brought a massive crowd to Portleix that night. An early sign that Carlow hurling was starting to hum nicely along.

In 2008 Carlow minors beat Offaly by 2-13 to 1-9. The usual shouts of 'new low' and 'rock bottom' rang out.
Read about here http://www.uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewto ... f=1&t=1638
Note the debate about how Offaly hurling had already fallen miles behind in terms of gameplay and innovation. It probably took another decade for that culture war to be definitively won.

In 2013 Offaly beat them narrowly in the league by 2 points

In 2016 Offaly beat them by 3 in the Leinster round robin after Carlow surged into an early lead. Carlow had 3 men sent off and lost the rag instead of seeing the game out.

In 2018 James Hickey said the following about Offaly: "Carlow are 10 points better than Offaly and I have no problem in saying that".
https://scoreline.ie/carlow-better-than-offaly/
How accurate he was could be debated, but clearly Carlow didn't rate Offaly as anything special. With plenty of justification unfortunately.

In 2019, Offaly beat them in the regular league but a week later lost the relegation play off in Tullamore to send us down to Div 2A. Offaly were 11 points ahead at half time and playing against 14 men. Carlow still ran out 2-14 to 1-16 winners.
The usual shouts of 'new low' and 'rock bottom' rang out.

Last year Offaly were coming off a good win in Kerry but Carlow well and truly brought us back to earth. It was probably the result that put an end to Michael Fennelly's time in Offaly. It certainly wasn't a 'new low' or 'rock bottom' but a recognition that Offaly were still a distance away from the higher ranks of hurling.

While Offaly put out a much changed team for the recent Joe McDonagh group game, there may be some dismay that the back up players didn't keep the scoreline tighter.

Offaly can't afford to give Carlow an inch this coming Saturday. We've had more than enough warning about what they are capable of.

This is pretty spot on. People loving attaching a narrative to things, or trying to seem insightful by picking out little things that turned out to be very consequential. In the even of a Carlow win on Saturday, the finger will be pointed at the psychological boost that Carlow got from running up a big win in the final round robin game, or how motivated they were at the perceived slight of being Offaly's "chosen opponents" in the final, regardless of how untrue that would be.

I'm a firm believer that motivation can be a big factor in driving a big performance in a league game, or a round robin game, or maybe even an early round championship game where complacency might be a factor. I do not accept for a minute that either Offaly or Carlow will have an edge in motivation on Saturday. It's a championship final in Croke Park, and the biggest game of the year for each and every one of these players, barring someone goes on a Houdini run in the All-Ireland series afterwards.

If Carlow win, it will be because they have a team that is mature, experienced, physical, and above all, well able to hurl. They don't have depth, but neither do we to any great extent, and we certainly don't with players like Oisín Kelly, Ross Ravenhill, Pádraig Cantwell all injured.

The very real possibility of Wexford coming down into Joe Mac next year only adds further importance to this game. It would be utterly unforgivable for anyone to think that this is anything other than a very tight game against a very capable opponent.

[ah lethimoutwithit]

Do the bottom 2 not playoff to see who goes down to Joe Mc?
I'm most likely wrong here, but thought Westmeath beat Laois last year in a play off for this.

[Bord na Mona man]

Do the bottom 2 not playoff to see who goes down to Joe Mc?
I'm most likely wrong here, but thought Westmeath beat Laois last year in a play off for this.

Westmeath beat them in 2021 in a Div 1 relegation play off.
Straight drop from MacCarthy to McDonagh. As it should be. Can't go changing the rules afterwards because they don't like the outcome like Tommy suggests.
https://twitter.com/Liamwhitekk18/statu ... 11777?s=19

[ah lethimoutwithit]

Do the bottom 2 not playoff to see who goes down to Joe Mc?
I'm most likely wrong here, but thought Westmeath beat Laois last year in a play off for this.

Westmeath beat them in 2021 in a Div 1 relegation play off.
Straight drop from MacCarthy to McDonagh. As it should be. Can't go changing the rules afterwards because they don't like the outcome like Tommy suggests.
https://twitter.com/Liamwhitekk18/statu ... 11777?s=19

I stand corrected, and 100% agreed. Wexford losing a 17 pt lead is shocking.
If Tommy Walsh wants to help them why don't Kilkenny allow them victory next weekend?

[Plain of the Herbs]

The two 'lowest seeded' counties in Leinster always play each other in round 5. This is to ensure the 'top 4' can effectively play Leinster semi-finals.

So last year, Westmeath beat Laois in round 5 in what was effectively a relegation final. And this year, Antrim and Westmeath were set to do the same, until Westmeath fecked up that little arrangement on them.

Do the bottom 2 not playoff to see who goes down to Joe Mc?
I'm most likely wrong here, but thought Westmeath beat Laois last year in a play off for this.

[G91]

Dublin slightly better than westmeath ,antrim
Wexford the dame until yesterday , realistic about things there's only two consistent teams kilkenny and Galway ,

kerry should have gotten the opportunity to play Waterford when they got to final of the joe mcdonagh there the only team outside of lienster that can play in a competitive championship

I know they didn't win but in fairness they have been alot better in joe mcdonagh than Waterford have been in Munster ,

This year they obviously failed to reach the final so that wouldn't happen

[Bord na Mona man]

Do the bottom 2 not playoff to see who goes down to Joe Mc?
I'm most likely wrong here, but thought Westmeath beat Laois last year in a play off for this.

Westmeath beat them in 2021 in a Div 1 relegation play off.
Straight drop from MacCarthy to McDonagh. As it should be. Can't go changing the rules afterwards because they don't like the outcome like Tommy suggests.
https://twitter.com/Liamwhitekk18/statu ... 11777?s=19

I stand corrected, and 100% agreed. Wexford losing a 17 pt lead is shocking.
If Tommy Walsh wants to help them why don't Kilkenny allow them victory next weekend?

Kilkenny were probably planning to make several changes for the last game but now with the chance to relegate Wexford, they may go with a stronger team.

[timber]

Carlow have had a fair degree of success against Offaly in recent years and will come to Croke Park quietly confident.

It started in 2005 in the league when they beat Offaly in the league, 3-12 to 1-13. The usual shouts of 'new low' and 'rock bottom' rang out.
When the sides met again in the league final Offaly improved and ran up a decent score, but Carlow still scored 4 goals in that game. I remember they brought a massive crowd to Portleix that night. An early sign that Carlow hurling was starting to hum nicely along.

In 2008 Carlow minors beat Offaly by 2-13 to 1-9. The usual shouts of 'new low' and 'rock bottom' rang out.
Read about here http://www.uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewto ... f=1&t=1638
Note the debate about how Offaly hurling had already fallen miles behind in terms of gameplay and innovation. It probably took another decade for that culture war to be definitively won.

In 2013 Offaly beat them narrowly in the league by 2 points

In 2016 Offaly beat them by 3 in the Leinster round robin after Carlow surged into an early lead. Carlow had 3 men sent off and lost the rag instead of seeing the game out.

In 2018 James Hickey said the following about Offaly: "Carlow are 10 points better than Offaly and I have no problem in saying that".
https://scoreline.ie/carlow-better-than-offaly/
How accurate he was could be debated, but clearly Carlow didn't rate Offaly as anything special. With plenty of justification unfortunately.

In 2019, Offaly beat them in the regular league but a week later lost the relegation play off in Tullamore to send us down to Div 2A. Offaly were 11 points ahead at half time and playing against 14 men. Carlow still ran out 2-14 to 1-16 winners.
The usual shouts of 'new low' and 'rock bottom' rang out.

Last year Offaly were coming off a good win in Kerry but Carlow well and truly brought us back to earth. It was probably the result that put an end to Michael Fennelly's time in Offaly. It certainly wasn't a 'new low' or 'rock bottom' but a recognition that Offaly were still a distance away from the higher ranks of hurling.

While Offaly put out a much changed team for the recent Joe McDonagh group game, there may be some dismay that the back up players didn't keep the scoreline tighter.

Offaly can't afford to give Carlow an inch this coming Saturday. We've had more than enough warning about what they are capable of.

This is very well put together and clearly shows that Carlow will go into this final with very little respect for Offaly and alot of confidence. Unless Offaly bring far more intensity and composure to their game, believe me they are going to struggle. At best I know this game is 50/50. The stats should indicate that carlow are favourites.

This is however a great opportunity for this group of players to step up.

[faithfulfanatic]

The Wexford GAA forum (I think it’s under the Hogan Stand page of forums) really is something to behold today.
I would laugh but it’s the exact same boat Offaly found themselves in 5-10 years ago.
A general surmise of the posts is that:
Underage set-up is all wrong, management needs to go, players need to go (but the underage setup is wrong so who comes in?), county board need to go, Wexford gaa need to stop playing loud music before the games.
It encapsulates the fickleness of sport.
If a single one of the Westmeath goals hadn’t gone in, people would be talking today about the close shave Wexford had and how it might sharpen their minds before Galway next week.
There was also a post during the week detailing how if Wexford had won the Leinster u20 final, that 5-6 of that team would make the step up to senior in the coming years.. but as they lost by 2 points, the poster was of the opinion that only 1 or 2 of them would make senior for Wexford

[Kevin]

The Wexford GAA forum (I think it’s under the Hogan Stand page of forums) really is something to behold today.
I would laugh but it’s the exact same boat Offaly found themselves in 5-10 years ago.
A general surmise of the posts is that:
Underage set-up is all wrong, management needs to go, players need to go (but the underage setup is wrong so who comes in?), county board need to go, Wexford gaa need to stop playing loud music before the games.
It encapsulates the fickleness of sport.
If a single one of the Westmeath goals hadn’t gone in, people would be talking today about the close shave Wexford had and how it might sharpen their minds before Galway next week.
There was also a post during the week detailing how if Wexford had won the Leinster u20 final, that 5-6 of that team would make the step up to senior in the coming years.. but as they lost by 2 points, the poster was of the opinion that only 1 or 2 of them would make senior for Wexford

This is very interesting, because while we were on the 20 year slide, Wexford invested considerable effort to get their house in order. To a fair extent there was measurable success. If the perception is that the bottom has fallen out down there then the focus must have been pulled off to a great degree. It will take a few more years to see if this is truly the case am thinking.

Tommy is great craic though isn’t he???!!!

[Superhans75]

Let's just beat Carlow and Wexford can look after there strawberries !

[Bord na Mona man]

A couple of points about Wexford.

What hasn't got much mention is that Westmeath had the 2nd half advantage of playing into the scoring end of Chapstick Wexford Park. Any exposed pitch relatively close to the sea has this phenomenon.
So Westmeath could take long goalward drives. If they kept them between the posts they either carried over or dropped around the square causing panic.
Wexford looked very flustered by the end on the clips I saw.
A great win for Westmeath of course, but if they played again next week, I’d expect Wexford to see out a win.

Another factor, Wexford hurling revolves around how they match up against Kilkenny. That’s the county they set their clocks by. History is full of examples where they took their eye off the ball against other counties. Their match next week against sounds like it was sold out. At some level Wexford would have tuned out about playing Westmeath when their cup final is coming up this weekend.

Back to how this affects Offaly. When Offaly got relegated in 2018 there was a clear problem with the uneven number of teams in the Leinster group. It meant one team sitting out every weekend of fixtures. As it happened Offaly were the victim of this having to play 4 weeks in a row and getting the ‘rest’ weekend after being relegated.

However sympathy was short supply for Offaly at this stage. We’d played the poor mouth a few times before that and appealed for clemency. So there was a fair amount of glee in seeing Offaly getting booted down.
The Leinster championship only got expanded when it looked possible that Dublin were becoming a relegation risk and ‘Dublin John’ Horan got the ball rolling on the reform.

If Wexford get relegated the only ace card that may save them is to expand Leinster to 8 teams. 7 teams won’t work. Helpfully for them, Offaly and Carlow are top 2 promotion candidates. The stroke that may get pulled is to keep Wexford up and promote both Offaly and Carlow to Liam MacCarthy status next year in an 8 team Leinster comp.