Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.
Fairplayalways
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Fairplayalways » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:31 pm

great to see the post taking off so well, one thing amazes me when I read abou the game "evolving" etc. its a simple game in ways, and the pitch is standard size with 30 players on the pitch, there are only so many different variations can be "evolved" over the years...I certainly dont want to see the Cork system (of few years ago anyway, not sure if they still do it) where keeper passes to loose wing back, one or two touches, over the bar...yes the accuracy is skill etc. but do we want hurling reduced to that, no more than Dublin footballers being the best in the country but resort to keep ball tactics if the game is tight and there is a 2/3 minutes left??..I think not, sure while you might win the match, which is the obejective, resorting to the likes of that to win, good night luke!!

The reference to Diarmuid Byrnes (excellent hurler) driving the ball down the field and Gillane or Peter Casey gets on end of it and either runs at the defence or score themselves, you watch Diarmuid Byrnes, he does drive it down the field, but the two corner forwards are comming meeting the ball towars the sideline, not already on half forward line waiting for the ball to be worked up the field to them mechanically so to speak.

The Limerick system has the long ball aspect AND skill, the current Offaly forwards would stuggle to win each ball let in in that fashion...simply, I dont think we have the hurlers, I dont think our hurlers are of that mindset now, the past were the way our hurlers devloped and we were probably lucky there was no back door system or multiple games per year, as realistically we may not have won in 1981 or 1985, so the system was the same for all teams back then and Offaly won the All Ireland, but Galway took out the Munster Champions each of the years in 81 and 85 and Offaly then beat them (the same as Wexford beat Kilkenny in the early 80s and we would then beat Wexford...running off topic a bit I know, but the point is the 1980s were unique in hurling standards and system...no Tipperary until 84, and they should have won 1984 Munster final, would Offaly have beaten Tipperary the day in Thurles??..I doubt it to be honest.

I think we naturally have fewer top class hurlers, and the other counties have more, and we are stuck between teams comming up, with a few good hurlers like us, and the top counties..revisiting the past training techniques and embracing current hurling systems wont work if you dont have the natural pedigree...good hurlers yes, exceptional..a few, thats what we have over last number of years...

private joker
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by private joker » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:52 pm

Possession is the key to winning in hurling, winning it, maintaining it, retaining it and how its used. Also the mindset that your only a wing forward, or only a full forward needs to change. Players should not view themselves as a particular forward, just as a forward. Play anywhere and be able to play anywhere.

Plain of the Herbs
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:36 pm

Absolutely correct on the snooker analogy.
joe bloggs wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:39 pm
I couldn't believe what I was reading further up the page.
Aimless ground hurling is gone. As you said if you concede possession now at the top level, the opposition will most likely generate a scoring chance from it, whereas in the past if the ball was lost, often the return ball coming back at you was not much better than 50-50.

In club hurling in offaly you will still.largely get away with "drive it" but not at intercounty level. Its a bit like when I play snooker. I know I can take on a risky pot and miss it, as my opponent will probably only score 20 to 30 points at best , but if i were playing Ronnie O'Sullivan I couldn't be so carefree.


But you don’t get it. It isn’t that some time in the early 2000s we all woke up one day and Cork had changed hurling. Hurling is always evolving. Limerick developed soloing in the 1930s, Wexford developed catching in the 1950s. Even now, hurling has evolved since, say, the 2009 All-Ireland, how the ball is played is different, players’ body shapes are different. It’s comply or die. There is no turning back here. And the rest of Ireland aren’t going to turn the clock back 20 or 30 years because poor Offaly missed the bus.

And it isn’t a ‘black or white’ where we either go with useless ground hurling drills or we go full blown Dónal Óg Cusack, there is a whole spectrum in between. Anyway, there are skills in timing a run to support a ball carrier, in timing the lay off, in making the run off the ball, in making space for someone to run into, in knowing when to stick and when to twist. Just because we reject these things in Offaly out of blatant stubbornness doesn’t change the fact that they are skills.

Offaly’s ‘drive it’ approach became redundant once defenders came out of the shadows and began to hurl from in front.
Of course Dublin (or anyone else) is going to dictate on whose terms the game is going to be played. They’re competitive sports men. There not dopes. And they’re certainly not going to give the ball away to the eejits who are 100 years out of date. They’re not going to give a sucker an even break.

Johnny Flaherty did co-commentary for the recent Kinnitty v Lusmagh game. He was berating KInnitty for not driving the ball up in the air. Fact is, they only collected 1 in every 3 balls driven in. During the second half, Tommy Leahy took on a ball, drove at the opposition, took some punishment and won a free which was converted. You'd clap him on the back for the deed. Instead, Flaherty criticised the lad for not getting rid of the ball. Crazy! Flaherty is a former head of Offaly's underage hurling structure. It doesn't take much to join the dots. Last Saturday, a Dunne chap from Drumcullen was on co-commentary with Pat Phelan for Lusmagh v Drumcullen. Dunne was critical of his team for not giving the ball away. Shur, when they did they were winning 1 in 3. Hardly a great percentage shot.
Fairplayalways wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:31 pm
great to see the post taking off so well, one thing amazes me when I read abou the game "evolving" etc. its a simple game in ways, and the pitch is standard size with 30 players on the pitch, there are only so many different variations can be "evolved" over the years...I certainly dont want to see the Cork system (of few years ago anyway, not sure if they still do it) where keeper passes to loose wing back, one or two touches, over the bar...yes the accuracy is skill etc. but do we want hurling reduced to that, no more than Dublin footballers being the best in the country but resort to keep ball tactics if the game is tight and there is a 2/3 minutes left??..I think not, sure while you might win the match, which is the obejective, resorting to the likes of that to win, good night luke!!
Would you believe? I actually texted a friend earlier this week and I said there are probably people out there who think the Limerick defenders actually drive the ball when they pick out a forward with a 60 yard pass.
Fairplayalways wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:31 pm

The reference to Diarmuid Byrnes (excellent hurler) driving the ball down the field and Gillane or Peter Casey gets on end of it and either runs at the defence or score themselves, you watch Diarmuid Byrnes, he does drive it down the field, but the two corner forwards are comming meeting the ball towars the sideline, not already on half forward line waiting for the ball to be worked up the field to them mechanically so to speak.
Ah yes, here we are in Offaly tying to re play the 1984 Munster final. Back when Tipperary were bringing their famine to an end around about 1987, 1988, there we were pointing to what we’d achieved in what we called ‘modern day hurling’ as opposed to what they’d won in the intervening 17 years or so. 17 years seemed a long time, the past being a different country. 17 years ago now is 2003. And what have we done? Another year over. A new one just begun.
Fairplayalways wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:31 pm
The Limerick system has the long ball aspect AND skill, the current Offaly forwards would stuggle to win each ball let in in that fashion...simply, I dont think we have the hurlers, I dont think our hurlers are of that mindset now, the past were the way our hurlers devloped and we were probably lucky there was no back door system or multiple games per year, as realistically we may not have won in 1981 or 1985, so the system was the same for all teams back then and Offaly won the All Ireland, but Galway took out the Munster Champions each of the years in 81 and 85 and Offaly then beat them (the same as Wexford beat Kilkenny in the early 80s and we would then beat Wexford...running off topic a bit I know, but the point is the 1980s were unique in hurling standards and system...no Tipperary until 84, and they should have won 1984 Munster final, would Offaly have beaten Tipperary the day in Thurles??..I doubt it to be honest.

Absolutely. I came across an expression yesterday along the lines of – when the other team has the ball you are a defender, regardless of where you are on the pitch. When your team has the ball, you are an attacker, again regardless of where you are. It’s all based on Fr Tommy Maher’s demand to think your way around a pitch. People just don’t get that.
private joker wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:52 pm
Possession is the key to winning in hurling, winning it, maintaining it, retaining it and how its used. Also the mindset that your only a wing forward, or only a full forward needs to change. Players should not view themselves as a particular forward, just as a forward. Play anywhere and be able to play anywhere.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

Toxicity234
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Toxicity234 » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:06 pm

There should be only one rule when it come to sport. Evolve your tactics to suit the players you have, not the players you want to have.

This is like Munster vs Leinster over the last 20 years.
they played two very different games but were both won competitions.

Ireland were ranked 6 in the world at one time playing what people though was rubbish football.

I have to say i don't give a crap if Offaly Club or County play rubbish - Hit it long - Hit it short- Put it in there sock and put a bag over their head and run around in circles. As long as it the best gameplan for the players available.


A few things:
The style of trying to hand pass the ball through the lines we played over the last ten years with players that couldn't play that type of game and we losing to Kerry, Antrim and Laois. while Cooderry and Kilcormac were in playing a completely different style and getting to Lenister finals and All Ireland finals.
While we were trying to play modern hurling and going backward.
Anyone that look at our club hurling would have went "well we many not win an All-Ireland but we can taking on anyone if we set up correctly. "
We Didn't, We brought back forward to play in defence, Put Defender in the forward line and picked lads out of position.

We taught young lads that there as a scoring zone and not to shot from outside it. watching Tony Kelly last week if he grow up in Offaly he be a goalkeeper for taking shot from the sideline.
We taught lads to look for a hand pass instead of the best option.
We played with a forward as a sweeper when we had the wind.
Fucking hell - i've seen us play with two sweepers.
We took lads out of minor and put them on the senior team to be bullied and left good lads in their prime sitting at home as we tried to rebuild every two years.
We did all this as people said that we were building for the Modern Game.

We're not Kilkenny, Cork, Galway, Tipperary and Limerick. We don't have their players and none of these play the same style as each other.

Anyone who thinks that hurling is just about one style miss the point of the game.
Tipp won an all Ireland last year with more possession. but they had more players for most of the game.
Limerick won with a direct style of play. They gave Gillane the ball Early and fast, you can't say that was Possession hurling.
Galway. they one of the most direct team I've seen Apart from McInerney. Who was there to Stop the ball and other team coming through the middle and give the ball to the wing back to deliver as fast as possible.
Kilkenny have won all Ireland playing direct hurling.

The last team to win an all Ireland playing possession game is Clare.

The standard of Offaly club hurling is good - excellent over the last 10 years.

Offaly club hurling hasn't missed the bus.

Offaly county took the bus and drove over any player that has potential.
Our development squad taught them not to think.
It taught look for the man running off the shoulder and not to look around and pick the best option.
it taught them to fear making mistake and turnover are evil.

If Guardiola told De Bruyne that keeping possession was the most important thing in the game, We would never see De Bruyne passing the ball with the outside of boot trying to open up play. Vision Requires Risk. You can't make that pass if you don't try.
if you don't teach the players to try will your be playing Christy Ring hurling with players that should be pushing to reach a leinster final.

Been a great player in any sport is about breaking the mold.
It's about have the guts to stand up and try to do something different.
In Offaly try a crossfield ball and give away possession at u-12 u-14 u-16 and minor and your hammer.
That not how your develop great players,
That who you destroy potential.

who many time as Joe Canning miss an important chance and how many has he taking. If he had gone for an impossible shot in injury time against Tipp. Galway may not have won the all Ireland. An Offaly hurler won't have gone for it. He would have been taught that he should look for the man running off his shoulder by the time he figured out that there was no man there, He have been turnover.
“Common sense is not so common.”

Liam2020
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Liam2020 » Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:42 pm

Poth where in my point did I say drive it or give the ball away, I belive a flick to the guy in space can open an defence but that has to be taught I am a great believe in teaching all skills.
John troy was a joy to watch , why can't be hope to see a young lads with his class again? Wouldn't be great to see some of our modern stars been able to score a John Fenton goal with the light sliotar nowadays.
The game is always evolving which is great but change in not always for the better.

I was at an underage game last year and a young lads pulled on a ball on the ground to his team mate in space, goal. The manager told him we don't play ground hurling and took him off, it's u 11s. Is that modern progressive thinking?
We have a problem where young lads are choosing rugby and soccer because the are allow to express themselves and are treated with respect. Where ever game is not life or death and enjoyment is gone. I'm sick of adults grading kids and making them feel worthless.
Sport is meant to be fun, playing with your friends not been judged by adults.

Plain of the Herbs
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:06 pm

Where did you say drive it or give the ball away? When you wrote your preference was to “move a ball on the ground or in the air if it does not go to hand”. Because that is giving the ball away. How many times does a ground stroke or overhead pull lead to a turnover in possession? Answer: almost always. Watch closely the next time you watch a hurling match.

And anyway, the Offaly way didn’t lead to large scoring tallies. Remember Offaly won All-Ireland final with scores of 2-12, 2-11 and 1-11 after 65 minutes. Last year, Kilkenny scored something like 0-20 in the Final and were beaten by 14 points.

If the John Fenton goal was to be replicated a few times every match that it might be something to attempt to do. Except it isn’t. It isn’t replicated a few times every year. Fact is, it hasn’t been replicated since. Not once. In 33 years. Anyway, nobody strikes the ball like John Fenton.

Change might be good or bad. But it is a fact and a reality and we need to deal with it. How are the Offaly hurlers of the future to even deal with a Clare or a Limerick or anyone else. I wonder was there as much resistance in Offaly to the introduction of the tractor, or bales of hay, or slatted sheds, or machine turf.

I’m not going to comment on the incident you mention. But from what you do say, that coach is a progressive one. He is preparing his boys for the realities of hurling in the 21st century and is to be commended. Quite likely he is battling with a father who objects to the mere thought of a hurling ball being handled.

Look at the video recently doing the rounds of the Ballygunner boy, jab lift, turn and strike. Brilliant stuff. If he was in Offaly, he’d be yelled at to hit it on the ground.

We want boys and girls to express themselves on the field. And they do that by practicing the skills they see played out on their television screens. I’d say backward coaches who prescribe a diet of boring ground hurling drills (the exact opposite of expressing yourself) are more responsible for driving boys and girls to play soccer and rugby (where they will be encouraged to be flair players) than the progressive coach.

Finally, because I have enough at this stage, the notion that in the past, teams merrily moved the ball from one 21 to the other with three ground strokes is a Utopian fantasy. It never happened. And we need to stop pretending it did.
Liam2020 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:42 pm
Poth where in my point did I say drive it or give the ball away, I belive a flick to the guy in space can open an defence but that has to be taught I am a great believe in teaching all skills.
John troy was a joy to watch , why can't be hope to see a young lads with his class again? Wouldn't be great to see some of our modern stars been able to score a John Fenton goal with the light sliotar nowadays.
The game is always evolving which is great but change in not always for the better.

I was at an underage game last year and a young lads pulled on a ball on the ground to his team mate in space, goal. The manager told him we don't play ground hurling and took him off, it's u 11s. Is that modern progressive thinking?
We have a problem where young lads are choosing rugby and soccer because the are allow to express themselves and are treated with respect. Where ever game is not life or death and enjoyment is gone. I'm sick of adults grading kids and making them feel worthless.
Sport is meant to be fun, playing with your friends not been judged by adults.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

private joker
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by private joker » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:38 pm

"I’m not going to comment on the incident you mention. But from what you do say, that coach is a progressive one. He is preparing his boys for the realities of hurling in the 21st century and is to be commended. Quite likely he is battling with a father who objects to the mere thought of a hurling ball being handled."


How is this a progressive coach.? Was pulling in the ball the right decision? That's the question that needs to be answered. Also I don't believe the player was taken off for doing a ground stroke. That storey, It just doesn't add up. Been able to make the right decision is nearly as important and having the right skills. Knowing when, what and where.

Fairplayalways
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Fairplayalways » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:24 am

just looking at all the debate on how to hurl this way and that way...Brian Cody no less, said once preparing for an all Ireland, you can prepare all you want, when the ball is thrown in its 15 against 15 after that, try and win most of the man to man battles and you wont be far away (from winning)... we see it in all sports, the best laid plans seem to waterdown in the heat of battle, and all hands on deck getting that ball out of the square (anywhere) by times..is it just a case as hurling has evolved in last 40 years, Offaly simply dont have the hurlers, no point rehaashing the 1980's but if you put the current Offaly squads in against an intercounty team playing them years, Offaly would more than hold their own with many of them (they would be fitter anyway) and the style of hurling would be simpler...its this new type of hurling I think Offaly are struggling to learn, the reasons can be many, as in coaching etc...but maybe we just are not going to and are where we are so to speak..
just a thought as i say...

Fairplayalways
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Fairplayalways » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:33 pm

watched the Tipperary final today on TG4 and seen other rounds as well...anyone that says the standard of club hurling in Offaly is as good as these counites is kidding themselves..OK kIladangan may not go on and win an All Ireland, simply because they will have to face a Na Piarsaigh or a Ballygunner in 1st round or at some stage in Munster...Ballyhale or the Dublin Champions are Leinsters equivocal, and at that the Offaly champions may not even get to meet them (Rynaghs knocked out by Laois champions last year and Wexford champions in 2017 when the won it)....Loughmore or Kiladangan would have beaten any team in Offaly today..maybe not everyday but the skill levels of these teams are way above anything I have seen in Offaly.....

Plain of the Herbs
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:35 pm

If you were impressed with Kiladangan and Loughmore . . . you wanna see Na Piarsaigh.
Fairplayalways wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:33 pm
watched the Tipperary final today on TG4 and seen other rounds as well...anyone that says the standard of club hurling in Offaly is as good as these counites is kidding themselves..OK kIladangan may not go on and win an All Ireland, simply because they will have to face a Na Piarsaigh or a Ballygunner in 1st round or at some stage in Munster...Ballyhale or the Dublin Champions are Leinsters equivocal, and at that the Offaly champions may not even get to meet them (Rynaghs knocked out by Laois champions last year and Wexford champions in 2017 when the won it)....Loughmore or Kiladangan would have beaten any team in Offaly today..maybe not everyday but the skill levels of these teams are way above anything I have seen in Offaly.....
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

private joker
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by private joker » Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:08 am

Will there be any leagues this year?.

Heshs Umpire
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Heshs Umpire » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:52 am

Fairplayalways wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:33 pm
kIladangan may not go on and win an All Ireland, simply because they will have to face a Na Piarsaigh or a Ballygunner in 1st round or at some stage in Munster...Ballyhale or the Dublin Champions are Leinsters equivocal, and at that the Offaly champions may not even get to meet them (Rynaghs knocked out by Laois champions last year and Wexford champions in 2017 when the won it)
I thought there was no All-Ireland club championships?

private joker
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by private joker » Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:02 pm

There is no club all ireland in 2020.

Fairplayalways
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Fairplayalways » Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:30 pm

I know, just saying if there was we wouldnt compete with the likes of those teams.

Plain of the Herbs
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Re: Standard of Senior club hurling in Offaly

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:28 pm

They're on the master fixtures plan currently in place. Football's round 1 scheduled for weekend 10th/11th October, hurling on weekend 17th/18th October.
private joker wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:08 am
Will there be any leagues this year?.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

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