Offaly senior football in general

[jimbob17]

just reading the thread on the senior hurlers 2011, it also strikes a chord with the footballers. for the past few years the whole thing has been a shambles in general the way it has been managed and the county board needs to seriously look at itself. also the senior and under 21 managers need also look at themselves. there is no strategic plan to develop lads at all barring they make a senior panel where they are exposed to training that challenges them physically and develops them physically. I have written posts previously with regard to this and not much seems to be done or thought about it, but it will leave offaly football struggling in div 4 if it continues. there is too much fade in and out of the senior football panel over the past 4 years. guys are starting one year and not making the panel the next. lads are not making the panel at the start of the year and then all of a sudden are called in and selected for championship. its a joke. there is no strength and conditioning programmes in place to develop people from minor level through to under 21 and senior. from a situation of four years ago with a young squad being competitive in div one and gettin to a leinster final beating westies, wex, kildare en route we are in a position of only hoping to be competitive. in the league that time we were competitive with kerry, dubs, tyrone, all top teams while beating cork (and drawing), monaghan (draw), fermanagh and donegal. all these teams were at the top then and are still there. look where monaghan have gone since, and cork, and kildare. we were hammering the tipps, clares and longfords by 20 points in friendles with second strings out while also beat a full strength armagh in a friendly at this time in 2005. I was at all these games and saw a lot of potential at the time. Some so called knowledgeable players were adamant to get rid of kevin kilmurray as were the county board after our first leinster final in ten years. though he had his failings, there was progression at the time and they seemed to be going in the right direction. subsequently county board memers took on duties as selectors, and physical trainers, running boys up and down croghan hill. what a Joke and where are we now? languishing in the lower tiers ranked 26th in the irish indo recently. my main crib is that the work done then was achieved with so many lads in their early twenties who are now in their prime and lost to the cause. Then Shane sullivan 21, nigel grennan 21, sean casey 21, paul mcconway 21, james keane 20, niall smith 19, james rafferty 20, kevin lynam 20, thomas deehan 21, james coughlan 21, sean ryan 19,padraig bracken 20, tom fitzpatrick 21, niall mcnamee 21, joe quinn, 21, thomas coughlan 21 and more were all emerging talents (16 players). only Niall mc really has fulfilled his potential. ok Shane sull and tom deehan too but have been in and out for various reasons. the others are either no longer involved or presently peripheral players. how is this let happen. bear in mind conor evans alan mcnamee, damien hunt, neville coughlan are still well young enough to be playing. where have they all gone?? and why?? its simple, there is no longer a prestige element in lining out for the county footballers and with poor structures players are not that bothered. i reckon at least fifty players have played league or champ in the past 4 years with twenty of them no where near good enough. there is an apathy there at present that needs to be addressed and only the county board can do this. they have a new stand there with plenty of room for a gym and proper support structures for developing talent. there is plenty of people in the county with the relevant expertise to get involved in coordinating development programmes but the county board cant see beyond their nose. there is expensive equipment paid for by the county board all over the place sitting in cupboards while they pay gyms for senior players to attend while the most important people to be training re strength and conditioning are the 16 - 21 year olds. they are being thrown in when they are not ready and are being exposed and it is not fair to them young good players coming into the senior panel at 20 with no proper strength and conditioning work and people expecting them to perform in their first year. graham guilfoyle is a prime example. one knock could knock him back a few years. it would not happen anywhere else. armagh have all their under 16s on development programmes and if they dont do it they are not selected for minor panels. its not rocket science either and would not cost much. Have an instructor or programme development person monitor them every 2 months and give them new programmes and educate them re diet and hydration and how best to reach their physical potential. so many players would develop for a few paltry quid that could lift us back into the top tier in 3/4 years time. instead massive money is doled out to so called "experts" for the benefit of senior panelists only. its time they woke up for once and for all!!! It disgusts me!! a frustrated individual who knows exactly what is going on!!

[Bord na Mona man]

I haven't read this post and I look forward to reading it, but jaysus, could you break it into paragraphs!

[jimbob17]

Sorry bord na mona man, was never gud at de bearla and strucshure!! might be a little easier this way!! just reading the thread on the senior hurlers 2011, it also strikes a chord with the footballers. for the past few years the whole thing has been a shambles in general the way it has been managed and the county board needs to seriously look at itself. also the senior and under 21 managers need also look at themselves. there is no strategic plan to develop lads at all barring they make a senior panel where they are exposed to training that challenges them physically and develops them physically. I have written posts previously with regard to this and not much seems to be done or thought about it, but it will leave offaly football struggling in div 4 if it continues.

there is too much fade in and out of the senior football panel over the past 4 years. guys are starting one year and not making the panel the next. lads are not making the panel at the start of the year and then all of a sudden are called in and selected for championship. its a joke. there is no strength and conditioning programmes in place to develop people from minor level through to under 21 and senior. from a situation of four years ago with a young squad being competitive in div one and gettin to a leinster final beating westies, wex, kildare en route we are in a position of only hoping to be competitive. in the league that time we were competitive with kerry, dubs, tyrone, all top teams while beating cork (and drawing), monaghan (draw), fermanagh, westmeath and donegal. all these teams were at the top then and some are still there. look where monaghan have gone since, and cork, and kildare. we were hammering Div 3 and four teams, (Rossies tipps, clares and longfords) by 20 points in friendles with second strings out while also beat a full strength armagh in a friendly at this time in 2005. I was at all these games and saw a lot of potential at the time. Some so called knowledgeable players were adamant to get rid of kevin kilmurray as were the county board after our first leinster final in ten years. though he had his failings, there was progression at the time, a solid backroom team and they seemed to be going in the right direction.

subsequently county board memers took on duties as selectors, and physical trainers, running boys up and down croghan hill. what a Joke and where are we now? languishing in the lower tiers ranked 26th in the irish indo recently. my main crib is that the work done then was achieved with so many lads in their early twenties who are now in their prime and lost to the cause. Then Shane sullivan 21, nigel grennan 21, sean casey 21, paul mcconway 21, james keane 20, niall smith 19, james rafferty 20, kevin lynam 20, thomas deehan 21, james coughlan 21, sean ryan 19,padraig bracken 20, tom fitzpatrick 21, niall mcnamee 21, joe quinn, 21, thomas coughlan 21, aidan keenaghan 20 and more were all emerging talents (16 players). only Niall mc really has fulfilled his potential. ok Shane sull and tom deehan too but have been in and out for various reasons. the others are either no longer involved or presently peripheral players. how is this let happen. bear in mind conor evans alan mcnamee, damien hunt, neville coughlan are still well young enough to be playing. where have they all gone?? and why??

Its simple, there is no longer a prestige element in lining out for the county footballers and with poor structures players are not that bothered. i reckon at least fifty players have played league or champ in the past 4 years with twenty of them no where near good enough to make a panel let alone a team. there is an apathy there at present that needs to be addressed and only the county board can do this. they have a new stand there with plenty of room underneath it in empty room for a gym and proper support structures for developing talent. There is plenty of people in the county with the relevant expertise to get involved in coordinating development programmes (I can think of 4 or 5 off the top of my head) but the county board can't see beyond their nose and would feel aggrieved at giving them a few quid to sort out the mess even though it is totally in their interest. There is expensive equipment paid for by the county board all over the place sitting in cupboards while they pay gyms for senior players to attend while the most important people to be training re strength and conditioning are the 16 - 21 year olds.

they are being thrown in when they are not ready and are being exposed and it is not fair to them young good players coming into the senior panel at 20 with no proper strength and conditioning work and people expecting them to perform in their first year. graham guilfoyle is a prime example and a very talented boy but that is all he is. One knock from a senior inter county player could put him back a few years. it would not happen anywhere else. Look what happens in Oz with the aussie rules, no lad makes it before he is at least 22 because they are deemed not ready and are played in their feeder clubs eg setanta, colm begley etc before they develop. the same principle applies in GAA but is used in the top counties - Kilkenny hurlers, kerry football, Dub football tipp hurlers this year, How many 21s are even on these panels let alone the team. Donegal 21s the same with only two lads on the senior panel last year despite gettin to 21 all ireland. Armagh 21 two/ three years ago won an all ireland with no players on the seniors. armagh have all their under 16s on development programmes and if they dont do it they are not selected for minor panels. why?? because they do things properly with knowledgeable people co ordinating things. but in offaly, talent like that is put straight in and players are unfairly open to serious injury. by the time they are 21 or two, they are considering themselves experienced inter county players and get annoyed if they arent picked and leave the panel. we see it time and time again! the mindset is all wrong. Those senior officials running it are all wrong. not because they want to do it their way. its because they dont know any different. but who puts them in there with so much power and so little knowledge of what is required to do things properly.

My point is only exemplified by the annihilation by DCU. this is not the first year that we get annihilated in the O Byrne cup and all supporters go home flummoxed. when is the last time we didnt get annihilated? ans 2006 when we got to a final v meath in Navan beating a full strength laoise, louth, and a college team too along the way if memory serves me correct. We got there with all those young players named above plus a few lads in their mid twenties, John reynolds, scott brady, paschal kellaghan (who could also still play) and Mac of course. what kind of training were they doing then and what kind of training are they doing now because we seem to have digressed so much? imagine anton sullivan, noel graham, young mcpadden, Guilfoyle breaking onto the team as well developed 21/22 year olds as should be the case having spent two years developing with the 21s and co ordinated senior management structures. imagine the competition for places on the panel, the impact it would put on the club structure with all talented 21 year olds properly conditioned over 5 years and ready for senior football.

its not rocket science either and would not cost much. Have instructors or programme development people monitor them every 2 months and give them new programmes and educate them re diet and hydration and how best to reach their physical potential. so many players would develop for a few paltry quid that could lift us back into the top tier in 3/4 years time. instead massive money is doled out to so called "experts" for the benefit of senior panelists only, running them up and down croghan hill and around the town to get fit for senior championship fotball. Do you honestly think any other competitive county is at this. its time they woke up for once and for all!!! It disgusts me!! a frustrated individual who knows whats required and exactly what is going on!!jimbob
Junior B

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[Edebderrydevil38]

IN response to the previous comment on the county boards responsibility towards player development and monitoring of progression is certainly not up to scratch it is most certainly a major improvement on what it was and for that much at least some credit must be shown. however i do empathise with the point raised improvement is noticeable. I feel that (and this is my personal opinion) that the current Offaly senior team is the strongest team that the county has fielded in the past 15 years if not more. THe fantastic blend of youth and enthusiasm along with mature and experienced players is going to prove fruitful this season. when you break down the team in to more experienced and this does not mean "old" players such as the sullivans, reynolds, mc manus, and matthew MItchell for me who is top quality in passing and vision and from what i hear is a strong motivator on and off the field and is the favorite for captain this year. And a exciting blend of youth with considerable experience in there own right can push this team onwards and upwards from the likes of the powerful young sean ryan, classic styled bernard allen with his simplistic get out in front turn the man and flawless finishing, the electric Anton sullivan with his gifted play, blistering paced guilfoyle has the ability to win high ball and breeze any opponent to fire a finish or set up the play when his head is in the game and ken casey who is showing his return what we had hoped he would become with a return to form after a slump in my opinion. this senior team with many other players not just those than i have briefly mentioned here are facing a lenister semi final at least in this 2011 campaign. please comment and let me hear your views.

[Edebderrydevil38]

all the same come on the faithful

[Lone Shark]

Well Jimbob, I can't say I'd be grading you too highly if I was an English teacher, but you know your subject matter and are very welcome aboard all the same. Just to take a few points and deal with them one by one....

the county board needs to seriously look at itself. also the senior and under 21 managers need also look at themselves.

I think we've all accepted that the county board in recent years has been pre-occupied with (i) getting the revamp of O'Connor Park done and dusted, and (ii) simply getting games and championships "run off" every year. I've said it before and I'll say it again - due to our genuine dual status, the likes of which is not really replicated anywhere else in Ireland, that one task is a huge challenge. Fundraising is also difficult in a small county, and as we saw recently, getting people onto the management committee is not easy. Getting people who aren't in a handy public service number or retired is almost impossible.

That said, there was a drive to address the underage situation some years ago and while the hurling is still way behind our peers, the state of underage football in the county has improved hugely. This should reap benefits.

Now the managers is a different story. A manager has a tough enough job looking after the players in his care, he can't be held responsible for the 70 - 100 footballers bubbling under each year. That's not to say that managers can't cause problems in other ways or set back the guys they have, but if I'm not on the county panel, there's feck all Tom Cribbin or Joe Dooley can do for me.

there is too much fade in and out of the senior football panel over the past 4 years. guys are starting one year and not making the panel the next. lads are not making the panel at the start of the year and then all of a sudden are called in and selected for championship. its a joke. there is no strength and conditioning programmes in place to develop people from minor level through to under 21 and senior. from a situation of four years ago with a young squad being competitive in div one and gettin to a leinster final beating westies, wex, kildare en route we are in a position of only hoping to be competitive.

First of all, the idea that there's too much turnover in Offaly football - that's actually completely incorrect. I remember doing this last year for some article or other, and comparing championship teams from 2009 with teams from either 2004 or 2005 - I can't recall the exact time. Offaly had more players common to both teams than any other county in Ireland. Cork reached an All Ireland semi final in 2005, and won the All Ireland in 2010 with one common starter - Noel O'Leary. Yes, we do seem to churn the fringe guys a lot, but in a lot of cases that is down to player choice rather than managers changing their minds.

The rate of burnout in playing county football is very high, and that'll always be the way as long as the demands are so high.

Some so called knowledgeable players were adamant to get rid of kevin kilmurray as were the county board after our first leinster final in ten years. though he had his failings, there was progression at the time, a solid backroom team and they seemed to be going in the right direction.

That has been discussed at length on this board. At the time I would have been a vehement critic of Kilmurray's and to say that we were competitive in the national league in 2006 was incorrect. That said, I accept in hindsight that he was keeping things moderately afloat. However the Leinster final appearance had a lot to do with a kind draw. Dublin and Laois were the heavyweights of the time and they were on the other side of the draw. Westmeath were desperately poor for that year and were missing Dessie Dolan as well. We beat Kildare due to a great run of goals, and then overcame Wexford who beat Meath for us when their best player was in a bad place mentally. Of course you can only beat what's put in front of you and I'm not trying to reopen that whole argument, except to say that there are two sides to it.

That things fell away very badly in the Pat Roe era is without question however.

Of the players on your list, most of them are still playing. Most of them have got plenty of time playing for the county and indeed most of them got plenty of chances even after they lost form. Of course management has to bear some responsibility but the players themselves must as well.

they are being thrown in when they are not ready and are being exposed and it is not fair to them young good players coming into the senior panel at 20 with no proper strength and conditioning work and people expecting them to perform in their first year. graham guilfoyle is a prime example and a very talented boy but that is all he is. One knock from a senior inter county player could put him back a few years. it would not happen anywhere else. Look what happens in Oz with the aussie rules, no lad makes it before he is at least 22 because they are deemed not ready and are played in their feeder clubs eg setanta, colm begley etc before they develop. the same principle applies in GAA but is used in the top counties - Kilkenny hurlers, kerry football, Dub football tipp hurlers this year, How many 21s are even on these panels let alone the team. Donegal 21s the same with only two lads on the senior panel last year despite gettin to 21 all ireland. Armagh 21 two/ three years ago won an all ireland with no players on the seniors.

Couldn't agree more on this point - however it feeds on from the previous point - in Offaly, if you're not in the county squad, you tend to be standing still, so for players to develop, they need to be in with the county. And secondly, the numbers you're restricted to in a county panel are such that most players get a chance at some stage. I'm not saying that I feel they should be bigger, but if a 19 year old is on the panel, he will get a chance, and sometimes, as was the case with Graham last year, he was in good enough form to justify plenty of playing time.



Overall however, most of your point makes perfect sense and I can't imagine too many people would disagree with any of it.

[Long John]

Have to agree with alot of what Jimbob is saying alright. The main thing I think should be pointed out from his comments is that the " prestige element" of pulling on an Offaly jersey has gone. I think that is a huge problem.

He is right the team under Kilmurray were very competitive no matter who they played, be it Kerry, Monaghan, Donegal, Cork. They were able to beat these teams or were not far off it.

I dont know why some players have slipped back so badly. Some might say a few have got a bit cocky and its well known that this is the problem with a few lads in footballing circles more so than the hurlers.

Like Ive said before regarding the strenght and conditioning, it is definately a part of the preparation but not to get carried away with it. Twice a week max is enough for GAA players and let them use the other days to work on other areas. Remember its not bodybuilders you are looking to develop. Thats why, yes strenght and conditioning is important but it must and I mean must be sport specific using functional strenght exercises. Theres actually no need for the county board to spend a fortune on paying for gym memberships. They should have the equipment at OCP facilities. All the fancy equipment and benches are not needed. Some medicine balls, swiss balls, Kettlebells and maybe some dumbells are all that is needed. Armagh have programmes for their development squad which I have seen in action and its all sport specific mostly with various weights of medicine balls. Mike McGurn, a very recognised fitness specialist has said that GAA players are foolishly doing the incorrect strenght work for GAA. He said that bench pressing, culs etc etc had no relevance in preparing them for GAA.

[jimbob17]

I feel that (and this is my personal opinion) that the current Offaly senior team is the strongest team that the county has fielded in the past 15 years if not more. THe fantastic blend of youth and enthusiasm along with mature and experienced players is going to prove fruitful this season.[

edenderry, i hate to say it but you couldnt be more wrong. you are looking at things with rose tinted glasses and are deluded if you think offaly will get near a leinster final. while all these young lads you mentioned are good young players, they are not ready for senior championship. they were hammered out the gate by rhode the other night and DCU the other day too. most of them wouldnt get near other county panels yet, that is not saying that they cant be there in the future. my point is not that they are never going to be good enough, football wise some of them already are, some of them will be if put on correct programmes. they are not physically ready in terms of strength and condition. the level that the top divisions have gone to now requires too years preparation. we throw young guilfoyle in after a few weeks training, ditto anton and possibly allen this year. Ok graham is a big boy and relatively strong, but nowhere fit enough for county senior football. remember we are talking about elite levels of fitness here comparable to professional levels of cardiovascular endurance in the premiership and and functional strength comparable to AIL Rugby. that is where the top 12 counties presently are at and has been proven in fitness tests. these lads are only boys. it takes hardened conditioned men to play county football and we are light years away with the present bunch to get near a leinster final. even a semi is highly unlikely to be honest. we can hope to challenge for second place in div 3 if we are lucky.

long john you are correct re strength and condition. im not talking about benching big weights. im talking about being able to take a hit which involves good core stability, strong legs and ability to accelerate away over 6/7 yards which is done basically through plyometric and flexibility training. in fact most of the knee injuries which have escalated enormously in recent years can be attributable to bad strength and condition training, where players beef up there upper torso and forget about their core and legs, consequently, their legs cant take the pressure in high impact situations, therefore rupturing the cruciates. O connor park is finished. there will be money in the kitty. you have to spend money to make money. For as little as three or four thousand euro/ year, this issue could be sorted giving us the platform to be competitive again. they should be investing in these boys.

yes the underage has improved drastically with good people involved re coaching, management etc, but im not talkining about football, that is not the problem. the problem is giving them the tools to develop the necessary athleticism of the players over the period of 16 - 21 to be ready for senior and be able to compete. at present we are down with the longfords and clares and carlows though i hate to say it. tipp are ahead of us. clare played us off the park last summer in the qualifiers and couldnt get over the line. we shocked down and now we think everything is rosy in the garden. well its not! See what the tipp under 21 hurlers did this year, annihilated everyone and galway in the final. they had a plan and used support from people who knew what they were talking about in relation to training. there are people equally qualified as those who oversaw that in this county and are not utilised. The suits would begrudge them any involvement if they thought it might cost them a few quid. yet they will spend thousands on the senior team who are way off in relation to preparation because they havent got the foundation stuff done. it makes no sense. we keep going to the games and go home in frustration thinking next year. tradition counts for nothing any more and any county would be licking their lips at drawing offaly in the championship. Its a shame and something that could be sorted so easily with a little know how and forward thinking from the top.

[faithfullad]

Lets be honest here, Offaly football will never progress until we get a manager who is not afraid to stop judging players by reputation and get them out. I mean, how long are we going to look at these mediocre players who have eased into their comfort zone on the panel, safe in the knowledge they won't be dropped. How many chances are Willie Mulhall, Richie Dalton, Ross Brady(Who is particularly frustrating to watch) going to get? Even Scott Brady looks seriously out of his depth now as an inter county full back. Guys who are a bit off the standard such as Paraic Sullivan will probably end up making the panel aswell. Noel Graham is a big name but A)He's not fit and not entirely focused and B) He's unbelievably over-rated, he never produced that much for the minors when more was expected of him.

The younger lads who are on the fringes will lose interest and drop out pre-league as a lot of them are not getting their chance. I suppose there is hope with young lads like Anton, Pender, Giller breaking through but I feel it could be managed better.

[jimbob17]

Now the managers is a different story. A manager has a tough enough job looking after the players in his care, he can't be held responsible for the 70 - 100 footballers bubbling under each year. That's not to say that managers can't cause problems in other ways or set back the guys they have, but if I'm not on the county panel,

Lone shark, we will have to agree to disagree on some points here. for the past while senior management has had responsibility for the under 21s aswell as seniors. of all the good minor teams that have passed thro in the past five years, reaching 3 or 4 leinster finals, what has happened at 21 level. they are ultimately responsible with the county board senior management committee for where resources are put and how they are spent. senior county board also controls the co minor footballers and again are responsible for how and where money is spent. this is the point i am making and nothing is being done. if those in charge of the running of it are not responsible for this then please tell me who is. its not the players faults, they dont know any different and havent a clue the lengthhs other players in other counties go to. I have spoken to some players and they would also confirm this.

First of all, the idea that there's too much turnover in Offaly football - that's actually completely incorrect. I remember doing this last year for some article or other, and comparing championship teams from 2009 with teams from either 2004 or 2005 - I can't recall the exact time. Offaly had more players common to both teams than any other county in Ireland.

fair enough you give the cork example from 2004 though i dispute this in relation to 2006. but you leave out the other 31 counties who havent had that level of turnover. of the offaly team that played that time in 06 with an average age of about 23/24 how many are playing now regularly while in their peak. P Kelly gone while still young enough for a goalkeeper, kevin meehan 28 gone, dean bracken 24 gone, ger rafferty 29 gone, shane sullivan in and out, nigel grennan 26 gone, slatts not the player he was, Scott brady there, cathal daly gone (left age 30) paul mcconway, 25 gone, alan mcnamee 29 gone, ciaran mcmanus still there, colm quinn left age 31, damien hunt gone, neville coughlan gone, john reynolds still there, Paschal kellaghan, 31? gone for last 3 years, trevor phelan gone age 25, niall mac, still there, tom deehan 25 gone, james coughlan 25 gone, james rafferty 24, gone. tom coughlan, Tom connor, aidan keenaghan, sean casey, james keane niall smith padraic bracken all gone or out of it for the past 3 years all under 26 still.. there is no argument. 23 players gone, 6 players off the panel left playing 4 years later with an average age now of about 29. cork may have had massive turnover but not to the extent you suggest. Donnacha o connor played then, graham canty, john miskella, nicholas murphy, noel o leary, anthony lynch and prob some more i cant think of off the top of my head, all won all ireland medals this year. james masters wasnt on the panel this year but not because he didnt want to be or declined to be like the offaly boys, but because he wasnt picked or deemed good enough. why?? because they went with a younger set of players who won minor and 21 all irelands, who had serious pedigree and had the necessary strength and conditioning done. one examle is paddy kelly who was only a slip of a lad as a minor but look at him now. kerry , monaghan, tyrone havent changed all that much.

Of the players on your list, most of them are still playing. Most of them have got plenty of time playing for the county and indeed most of them got plenty of chances even after they lost form.

my point is why they lost form and why they had form in the first place. they lost form because they were running up and down croghan hill. they were doing the wrong type of training, they were slowing down, getting injured. Why? because the county board went forthe cheapest option available to them. it has gone too serious now to have any old former legend or a lad who can be a great lad at the pub talk training the team and training the minors and 21s. would any premiership team or championship team for that matter pay a lad who had no expertise in the science of training. you can bet your life they wouldnt. or any half reputable county for that matter. and im not talking about big money either. a legend gets the gig for the same money as someone who know s what they are talking about.. we are living in the dark ages im afraid to say with regard to this.

That has been discussed at length on this board. At the time I would have been a vehement critic of Kilmurray's and to say that we were competitive in the national league in 2006 was incorrect. That said, I accept in hindsight that he was keeping things moderately afloat. However the Leinster final appearance had a lot to do with a kind draw. Dublin and Laois were the heavyweights of the time and they were on the other side of the draw. Westmeath were desperately poor for that year and were missing Dessie Dolan as well. We beat Kildare due to a great run of goals, and then overcame Wexford who beat Meath for us when their best player was in a bad place mentally. Of course you can only beat what's put in front of you and I'm not trying to reopen that whole argument, except to say that there are two sides to it.

2006 beaten in o byrne cup final, league, beat cork by 5 points (all ireland finalists) lost to dublinleinste champions by 2 points, well beaten by mayo (all ireland finalists)after reduced to fourteen men, beaten by kerry narrowly, 1 goal ?? and missed goal chances at the end if i remember correctly, lost to tyrone by 4 points in tulllamore, level with 10 mins remaining, draw with monaghan( see where they have gone since with the same players), beat fermanagh by 7 points?? a team who reached the all ireland semis around that time. finished on 5 points and were relegated on goal difference. in fact should have beaten monaghan too when niall missed an easy free in the last minute after the county board had organised a under 21 club champ match the night before. there was uproar at the time if i remember correctl. beat poor westmeath(Div 1) comfortably, beat wexfordDiv 1) comfortably and the goals saw us past kildare before being beaten in the final by dublin well for a finish. but with 15 mins remaining there was 2 points in it when alan mac was sent off. that to me is quite competitive in contrast to where we are now with the same set of players available. well beaten by laoise in qualifier match to get into all ireland quarters where immature fellas (7/8 of the team) were on the sauce for six days solid up to less than 48 hours before the game toasting their meteoric rise to fame reaching a leinster final!! we are gone so far back from this level though im afraid that we are only capable of being competitive with div 3 and four teams now. anyway we will agree to disagree

MY main point however is that the necessary procedures with a forward thinking and coherent plan is not in place to support lads coming throug. there is a sense of apathy and bewilderment among the established older player. there is no longer any prestige to pulling on a county shirt as they were given out too cheaply in the past few years with so many fellas coming and going.these young players have no idea of what it takes to be successful at inter county senior level but the problem could be fixed so easily if the county board had any know how or sense of direction about the way they wanted to do things!!! Any views??

[Lone Shark]

Now the managers is a different story. A manager has a tough enough job looking after the players in his care, he can't be held responsible for the 70 - 100 footballers bubbling under each year. That's not to say that managers can't cause problems in other ways or set back the guys they have, but if I'm not on the county panel,

Lone shark, we will have to agree to disagree on some points here. for the past while senior management has had responsibility for the under 21s aswell as seniors. of all the good minor teams that have passed thro in the past five years, reaching 3 or 4 leinster finals, what has happened at 21 level. they are ultimately responsible with the county board senior management committee for where resources are put and how they are spent. senior county board also controls the co minor footballers and again are responsible for how and where money is spent. this is the point i am making and nothing is being done. if those in charge of the running of it are not responsible for this then please tell me who is. its not the players faults, they dont know any different and havent a clue the lengthhs other players in other counties go to. I have spoken to some players and they would also confirm this.

Yes under 21 has gone badly, however that still means that management, between under 21 and senior, is responsible for less than 50 players in any given year, and in the case of twenty odd of them, is done with them by March.

I'm not saying that the county board is blameless, but it's not hard find out what are the standards in other counties - most players go to college after all, where they play ball with footballers from all over Ireland.

First of all, the idea that there's too much turnover in Offaly football - that's actually completely incorrect. I remember doing this last year for some article or other, and comparing championship teams from 2009 with teams from either 2004 or 2005 - I can't recall the exact time. Offaly had more players common to both teams than any other county in Ireland.

fair enough you give the cork example from 2004 though i dispute this in relation to 2006. but you leave out the other 31 counties who havent had that level of turnover. of the offaly team that played that time in 06 with an average age of about 23/24 how many are playing now regularly while in their peak.

My point was not that Cork were the exception, it's that Offaly were in keeping so many. Offaly retained more footballers over five years than any other county in Ireland - we had the least turnover of them all.

my point is why they lost form and why they had form in the first place. they lost form because they were running up and down croghan hill. they were doing the wrong type of training, they were slowing down, getting injured. Why? because the county board went forthe cheapest option available to them. it has gone too serious now to have any old former legend or a lad who can be a great lad at the pub talk training the team and training the minors and 21s. would any premiership team or championship team for that matter pay a lad who had no expertise in the science of training. you can bet your life they wouldnt. or any half reputable county for that matter. and im not talking about big money either. a legend gets the gig for the same money as someone who know s what they are talking about.. we are living in the dark ages im afraid to say with regard to this.

Every county does stamina training of some sort, and not being that well versed in proper physical training techniques, I'll nbow to better wisdom when it comes to what is and isn't appropriate training. I agree completely however that we tend to have given too much leeway to former players who hadn't proven themselves in management.

2006 beaten in o byrne cup final, league, beat cork by 5 points (all ireland finalists) lost to dublinleinste champions by 2 points, well beaten by mayo (all ireland finalists)after reduced to fourteen men, beaten by kerry narrowly, 1 goal ?? and missed goal chances at the end if i remember correctly, lost to tyrone by 4 points in tulllamore, level with 10 mins remaining, draw with monaghan( see where they have gone since with the same players), beat fermanagh by 7 points?? a team who reached the all ireland semis around that time. finished on 5 points and were relegated on goal difference. in fact should have beaten monaghan too when niall missed an easy free in the last minute after the county board had organised a under 21 club champ match the night before. there was uproar at the time if i remember correctl. beat poor westmeath(Div 1) comfortably, beat wexfordDiv 1) comfortably and the goals saw us past kildare before being beaten in the final by dublin well for a finish. but with 15 mins remaining there was 2 points in it when alan mac was sent off. that to me is quite competitive in contrast to where we are now with the same set of players available. well beaten by laoise in qualifier match to get into all ireland quarters where immature fellas (7/8 of the team) were on the sauce for six days solid up to less than 48 hours before the game toasting their meteoric rise to fame reaching a leinster final!! we are gone so far back from this level though im afraid that we are only capable of being competitive with div 3 and four teams now. anyway we will agree to disagree

I don't think anyone passes too much remarks on the O'Byrne Cup, so let's leave that aside.

On the league, yes we started well against Cork when they fielded a second team. We got hammered by Mayo and got hammered by Dublin, albeit nearly pulled out a freak result with a series of late goals. That's the game where we didn't score until 52 minutes in and the crowd were jeering us - so there was no credit in that. I don't know what Tyrone game you were thinking of, they beat us by nine in Tullamore that year and we were nowhere close to level with ten minutes to go, Kerry beat us by 0-13 to 0-9 in a game that they got lambasted for being so poor in, and we drew with Monaghan who used seven of their sixteen outfield players from that day in the Ulster final last year. Yes Monaghan have improved, but it's a huge stretch to say that it was with the same players. Fermanagh game was essentially a challenge match, as evidenced by the fact that a viciously mean Ulster defence conceded 4-13 - normal service was not in effect.

Regarding the championship, we obviously have different ways of looking at it - all I'll say is that Westmeath were actually division 2 (of 2) and had lost the services of Dessie who was their best player, and after that we rode our luck a lot.

MY main point however is that the necessary procedures with a forward thinking and coherent plan is not in place to support lads coming throug. there is a sense of apathy and bewilderment among the established older player. there is no longer any prestige to pulling on a county shirt as they were given out too cheaply in the past few years with so many fellas coming and going.these young players have no idea of what it takes to be successful at inter county senior level but the problem could be fixed so easily if the county board had any know how or sense of direction about the way they wanted to do things!!! Any views??

I would love to see much better central management of player development, but right now we simply could not afford what it would take. I say that based on the numbers for this year where we made a significant enough loss, which was not the case in most counties. I know straight away where I'd cut the money from the existing budget, but that's another story....

[townman]

some great points made here about the county footballers, the bottom line is we are not good enough
you can talk about the minor leinster finals we were in we lost them all last year again longford took the biscuit.
you can talk about gyms and cost of running things if you don't have the talent you won't win.

the cork team thats out there have won underage the whole way up as well as club allirelands with Nemo Rangers some of them
look lads call a ace an ace we haven't had a football team that you could say will be there or there abouts since 1982 and thats
not running down the lads that have put in alot of years since then, we don't have the talent in the county football or hurling at the
moment to win anything its hard but true.

[Truth as i see it]

Hope no-one minds if i put in my two sense here as i have'nt posted in a long while so i'll keep this short and sweet.

Townman with all due respect this whole defeatist " no talent " excuse drives me up the wall.

i live in south Roscommon near Athlone and if you seen some of the work that is going on in Westmeath at underage level you would have to say that given the kind of results Westmeath have had over the past few years since they won their one and only Leinster title back in 2004 i think it was i'd say you'd have to say they are making the most of their resources at their disposel and not making excuses.

I know that the senior team (westmeath that is ) is not great at the moment but believe me when i tell you, thery are on the right track to developing a seriously good team in the coming years.

I have to agree with Jimbob17 on this one, its not a case of not having the talent, just a lack of the right attitude from certain past players and board members alike

Just my opinion is all

comment's welcome.

[pedro]

Hope no-one minds if i put in my two sense here as i have'nt posted in a long while so i'll keep this short and sweet.

Townman with all due respect this whole defeatist " no talent " excuse drives me up the wall.

i live in south Roscommon near Athlone and if you seen some of the work that is going on in Westmeath at underage level you would have to say that given the kind of results Westmeath have had over the past few years since they won their one and only Leinster title back in 2004 i think it was i'd say you'd have to say they are making the most of their resources at their disposel and not making excuses.

I know that the senior team (westmeath that is ) is not great at the moment but believe me when i tell you, thery are on the right track to developing a seriously good team in the coming years.

I have to agree with Jimbob17 on this one, its not a case of not having the talent, just a lack of the right attitude from certain past players and board members alike

Just my opinion is all

comment's welcome.

You are dead right, alot of players on county panel the last couple of seasons have had a terrible attitude. They like to throw shapes and think alot of themselves but they dont have that deep pride and passion for the county. Alot, not all of them, but alot of them look out for themselves and thats the bottom line.

Some of the county board is very old fashioned and not the type of leadership the county needs. Dont get me wrong, fair play to them for giving their time and effort for the cause but I seriously think they have not got a clue what is needed push the county forward. The problem is, who can do it, well who has the time, the passion, and the intelligence for it??

[Lone Shark]

For what it's worth, in case I'm coming across badly, I don't buy into the "no talent" line for this county when it comes to football at all. I think we have a lot of raw material that can be moulded and a generally young panel with plenty of ability as well. My general gist here is that whatever happened under Kevin Kilmurray, which is a recurring debate on this board, things deteriorated hugely over the next two seasons. We've a lot of ground to make up, and while I think some structural things could be done better, I do feel that we're getting a lot more right than wrong within the county panel and management.