Toughness in Football

[TheManFromFerbane]

Well folks, just wondering what the thinking was on the Dublin\Kildare game in general but more specifically the foul and the end and the whole area of "toughness" Football.

Personally, I think it was a foul, I know the ref wasn't giving them all day and you'd like a bit of consistency etc.... but the Kildare man pulled Brogan's jersey as he was running for the ball. That's a free, end of. O'Rourke can talk all he likes about football being a tough game but pulling a jersey isn't tough, it's sloppy. My big problem with football lately is that if a guy gets fairly hit with a shoulder or hammers in for a breaking ball, the refs tend to blow for a free if it happens too fast or he hits him too hard. They're the type of frees and bookings that annoy me.

I look to the game of ice hockey, where in the NHL they realised that the pullin' and the maulin' and the rucks were killing they're game in the late 90s early 00s. They put a big push on penalising those types of fouls and it freed up the game brilliantly and allowed for a really fast game, so much so that now they are tweaking how a guy can be hit because the collisions were just too fast and there were too many concussions.

We don't have that problem in the GAA because the game is played on foot and our rules only allow for shoulder to shoulder hits, therefore we just need to focus on consistent calling of pulling jerseys, interference by a 3rd man and all the other things that aren't manly, they're just sloppy.

And just so we're clear, I'd still want my full back or inside backs doing all the murky illegal things that they do to gain an advantage, but it should be done knowing that it is against the rules and if you're caught, you're caught, and not to give out then because it's a soft free.

[Lone Shark]

I'll be honest, having looked at the replay, I didn't see any jersey pulling, but the one thing I will accept is that Cormac Reilly would have had a better and a closer view than any TV camera, and in fairness to him, it would have been the easy way out not to whistle anything and just blow for full time. Nobody would have said a word to him, so he must have been sure of himself. I would also agree with him on O'Gara's red card. The first one was perhaps soft enough but he had been warned, he had fouled three times, so it wasn't way wrong - while the second one could have been a straight red - O'Gara knew the ball was gone, eyed up the man and took him out.

I was actually impressed with Syl Doyle on Saturday evening in Tullamore, for a guy who normally gives cards out very easily, he generally kept good control and even whistled lads for blatant dives a couple of times.

In general, I would say that the biggest anomaly in the rules of football is that there is one legitimate way to tackle a man in possession taking his four steps, and if you do it well enough to knock him over, it tends to be a free - really annoying.

However another aspect that bugs me is that the defender has to have some chance - too often attacking players get away with charging as well, or the classic arm grab to bring down the defender. Eliminate this, and players going down too easy, and then it's fair to crack down on sloppy illegal defensive play.

[TheManFromFerbane]

I would also agree with him on O'Gara's red card. The first one was perhaps soft enough but he had been warned, he had fouled three times, so it wasn't way wrong - while the second one could have been a straight red - O'Gara knew the ball was gone, eyed up the man and took him out.

Agreed

In general, I would say that the biggest anomaly in the rules of football is that there is one legitimate way to tackle a man in possession taking his four steps, and if you do it well enough to knock him over, it tends to be a free - really annoying.

And also the fact that if you're being a good defender, waiting for him to take his for steps so you can swipe at the ball when he hops or solo's it, you can be waiting a lot longer than four steps!

However another aspect that bugs me is that the defender has to have some chance - too often attacking players get away with charging as well, or the classic arm grab to bring down the defender. Eliminate this, and players going down too easy, and then it's fair to crack down on sloppy illegal defensive play.

And agreed as well, so in typical Irish style, the GAA have said, we're letting the forwards away with this, so we can let the backs away with that, when if we punsihed both properly for the first 2 rounds of the league we wouldn't have either come Championship!

[townman]

remember the free Clare got to draw the first game in 1998 i left that day feeling like we were rode out of a win, so how do kildare feel
they had no luck last year with down's square ball goal. maybe they have no luck for putting Down flags out the windows in kildare town in 1960 and 61
when offaly played

[True Red]

maybe they have no luck for putting Down flags out the windows in kildare town in 1960 and 61
when offaly played

Just to add to that little nugget, in 1961 when Offaly played Down in All Ireland Final, passenger trains were ran out of the station in Edenderry for the first time in years. When the proud Offalians reached the Sweep at Carbury, there was young lads waving Down flags to send them on there way up to Dublin.

Karma is a b*tch.

(Although in saying that i had €10 on the draw yesterday at 8/1, and i cursed the ref into the ground at the end)

[Lone Shark]

(Although in saying that i had €10 on the draw yesterday at 8/1, and i cursed the ref into the ground at the end)

You lost €90 on that decision. Imagine how the Leinster Council feel now.

[turk]

As an aside, didn't Kildare object to Father McManus playing for Meath in the Leinster semi final replay in 1929 and they were told they would never win another All-Ireland and they never have!

http://www.hoganstand.com/Meath/Article ... x?ID=30362

[Long John]

From seeing the replays a number of times I dont think it was a free. McLoughlin was very tight to Brogan and was clearly trying to show his hands. To top it all Kildare had another player coming back who more than likely was going to be the one that won possession, at worst a collision with Brogan and McLoughlin sweeping up the break.

It was very interesting because not too long before that I think the ref awarded a throw in on the Dublin 21 yard line and booked both the full back and fullforward. The replay showed the Dublin full back on top of the KIldare attacker. It was very obviously a free in if you want to be consistent. Kildare had possession out the field and ready to drop it in. We all know what the full back was at.

In the first half Dublin got three or four very handy close in frees and particularly one where the corner back was booked even though he got a fist to the ball ahead of Bernard Brogan and I thought he had done brilliantly well. Some terribly calls by the ref.

As for the sending off. Agree with McStay and LS. I was getting frustrated with O' Gara myself because I think he had fouled four times before the 1st booking. Its another way of slowing down defences building attacks and I think the card was warranted.

[manfromdelmonte]

I just wish referees would learn how to spot a player looking to get a free or 'engineer' a free as McStay or Carney might say

I mean its obvious forwards are holding onto defenders hands and dragging them over to win soft frees.
they are also trapping defenders hands in between the ball and chest and its looks like the defender is holding onto them
and the best one is slowing down when going to pick up the ball and just falling over if there is an opponent behind you - in the hope the ref might be fooled into giving a free.

A ref must work with his linesmen and umpires to cut out any of that crap in the first 10 minutes of a game. one yellow card usually sorts it out.

[Fido]

Interesting article I thought in today's Irish Times by Seán Moran http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/spo ... 29047.html
I wouldn't agree that MacLochlainn on Brogan was a foul, and to be honest I wouldn't even assume, as the article suggests, that the ref's instinct was to "call it as he saw it" and give the free knowing that he'd be vilified, but because it was the right thing to do. I think unfortunately the human instinct under pressure is not always a noble thing and these decisions will go the way of the bigger team, and the louder crowd. I don't think this is a conscious thing in refs. I admire anyone willing to ref games and take the abuse that goes with it, and I don't believe that anyone goes out to influence a result in favour or against a team, but human nature is human nature and sometimes people make the wrong decision. The trick is, I suppose, to be about ten points clear so that it won't matter...
But I think what's much more damaging to the game, and sport in general is to engage in the ritualised ref-bashing that goes on after matches on the tv and elsewhere. I admit I do it myself in the heat of the moment, but I don't like it and I've made a real effort to cut it out now that I train kids myself in various sports. It's terrible to see young lads of ten and twelve immediately blaming the referee whenever a result goes against them. They only do it because they see us adults do it, they see soccer players do it and now they see it in the GAA, not to mention the cowardly physical attacks on referees. It's cowardice on several levels, most obviously when it's a belt to the back of the head from a supporter running onto a field, or a group of people menacing one individual, but also cowardly in that it refuses to take responsibility. It's easy to blame a ref for blowing up early, or giving a free, or not giving a free, but that's often just avoiding uncomfortable truths.
I'm all on for giving timekeeping to another official to monitor, using video evidence, more communication and training for umpires etc, but with the best will in the world you'll never eliminate all human error. You just have to take it sometimes, and jaysus, there's nothing worse when it goes against you, but there it is. We're teaching our kids to whinge and bitch and moan and not take responsibility. There's a lot of dignity in taking defeats and tough decisions and even wrong decisions and that's the real character-building element of sport. We'd do well to remember that, especially around kids.

[TheManFromFerbane]

But I think what's much more damaging to the game, and sport in general is to engage in the ritualised ref-bashing that goes on after matches ... We'd do well to remember that, especially around kids.

100% Agreed

[townman]

remember the free Clare got to draw the first game in 1998 i left that day feeling like we were rode out of a win, so how do kildare feel
they had no luck last year with down's square ball goal. maybe they have no luck for putting Down flags out the windows in kildare town in 1960 and 61
when offaly played

HA HA see the flour bags were done out of it again tonite, as i said before they will never have any luck for what they done in the 60's when offaly were trying to
make the break through couldn't happen to a better shower than the flourbags as they say the only thing that came from kildare was the 3 s's sheep, sh.t, and soldiers

[Fido]

remember the free Clare got to draw the first game in 1998 i left that day feeling like we were rode out of a win, so how do kildare feel
they had no luck last year with down's square ball goal. maybe they have no luck for putting Down flags out the windows in kildare town in 1960 and 61
when offaly played

HA HA see the flour bags were done out of it again tonite, as i said before they will never have any luck for what they done in the 60's when offaly were trying to
make the break through couldn't happen to a better shower than the flourbags as they say the only thing that came from kildare was the 3 s's sheep, sh.t, and soldiers

Spoken like a true North Offaly die hard!