Championship - The Way Forward????

[azoffaly]

Hi All, I originally posted this in the hurling thread, but I think I should really have a new topic. I'd be interested in what ye think.

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I think we seriously need to look at divisional sides for the county Championship and model our championships, hurling and football, on the Kerry model.

I've spent a good deal of my time in Kerry, as a lot of ye know , and the situation they have could work in Offaly as well. A lot is spoken about tradition and the rest, which is undoubtedly true, but the key component in them turning out good players is that everyone, from Novice Clubs to Senior gets the chance to develop and play Championship games against other good teams.

The set up in Kerry, using South Kerry as an example as it is most familiar to me.

There are 9 club teams in South Kerry. They are Saint Mary's Cahirciveen, Ballinskelligs/Foilmore, Renard, Derrynane, Portmagee, Valentia, Waterville, Dromid Pearses and Sneem.

Each of these clubs field teams in their respective divisions of the County League, e.g. Cahirciveen Division 1, Waterville Div 2, Dromid 2, Renard 4, etc etc.

Each of these clubs also compete in their respective 'Club' Championships, such as Senior, Intermediate, Junior, Novice etc.

Each of these clubs also compete in the South Kerry championship, which is hotly contested, and the highlight of the year for the normal club player.

However, the kicker, and the real benefit to Kerry, is that the best players on these 9 small clubs combine and play under the banner of South Kerry in the Senior, Under 21 and Minor County Championships.

This allows players such as Declan O'Sullivan, the Captain of Kerry for the past 3 years, to progress and play a serious level of Club football and be a huge player for Kerry. When was the last time a Junior club player was such an big figure for Offaly, (Ciaran McManus excepted). It's not just Declan O'Sullivan either. Killian Young plays for a Division 4 Junior Club (Renard), Ronan Hussey, Ronan O'Connor, and Paddy Curran all play for small townland or village type clubs. All have represented Kerry at various levels with distinction. Players like Seamus Moynihan, Paul Galvin, Eamon Fitzmaurice and others have all benefited from playing championship football with Divisional sides like East Kerry, Shannon Rangers, Feale Rangers, Kenmare etc etc.

Obviously the coaching structures etc also exist down there, which is the foundation work, but the ability to play big games against other divisional sides as well as big clubs like Laune Rangers, Dr. Crokes, An Gaelteacht, Austin Stacks etc is a huge factor in their development. I remember Declan O'Sullivan as a raw 17 year old playing for Dromid in a junior championship match. His talent was obvious, but without being part of the South Kerry minors, and beyond, he would never have been a three time Kerry Captain.


So to Offaly, how could it benefit us? In my opinion, we have a small pick as it is, and there is no point in limiting the top quality games players can play in either code. Let's keep the clubs, but play divisional (West, South, North, East whatever Championships), and let the bigger clubs enter the County Championships on their own. No need to merge Birr in hurling, or Rynaghs, or Tullamore or Clara or Rhode or Edenderry in football. But let's think about merging the likes of Shannonbridge, Cloghan, Pullough, Doon, even Ferbane as West Offaly, for both hurling and football. Let's merge Birr, shinrone, Clareen etc etc for Football.

I'm not talking about loose alliances, I'm talking about a root and branch approach at senior, under 21 and minor level.

By all means keep the divisional championships, and they would be some craic!!, but lets try and raise the standard of our County Championship games.

The only downside I can really see with this approach, and has been the case in Kerry, is that if a Divisional side wins the County Championship, then they will be barred from the AIB club championship. To be honest, I think we could live with allowing the last standing major club to progress in that case.

What do you think? Would it work in Offaly? I'm sure it would take getting used to, but I have seen it in action, and I have seen gradual progression of players to reach standards they couldn't dream of if they did not have the avenue available. How many 'rough diamonds' are buried in the junior fields and small clubs around the county?

What say ye?

[azoffaly]

Bare Biffo asked in the other thread about the set up in Kerry and would Offaly be big enough.

In principle I think it would, but even a smaller version would be of a similar benefit. Kerry's Championship is knock out, whereas I think we could have a smaller league type structure.

I'll dig out the exact detail on Kerry.

Edit. OK. For Kerry Football, there are 60 club teams, one of which (Clounmacon) doesn't partake in the County Leagues. I have grouped them in their divisions, along with the 'Club' championship they play in. All teams listed as 'Senior' play the County Championship alone as a club. The one who lasts longest goes forward as the representative in the All Ireland Club.

Division 1:

Ardfert Division 1 Senior
Austin Stacks Division 1 Senior
Dingle Division 1 Senior
Dr. Crokes Division 1 Senior
Gaeltacht Division 1 Senior
Gneeveguilla Division 1 Intermediate
Kerins O Rahillys Division 1 Senior
Kilcummin Division 1 Senior
Laune Rangers Division 1 Senior
Listowel Emmets Division 1 Intermediate
Milltown/Castlemaine Division 1 Senior
Rathmore Division 1 Senior


Annascaul Division 2 Intermediate
Beale Division 2 Junior
Castleisland Desmonds Division 2 Intermediate
Currow Division 2 Intermediate
Dromid Pearses Division 2 Intermediate
Finuge Division 2 Intermediate
John Mitchels Division 2 Senior
Sneem Division 2 Intermediate
Spa Division 2 Intermediate
St. Marys Division 2 Intermediate
St. Michaels/Foilmore Division 2 Intermediate

Waterville Division 2 Intermediate
Ballymacelligott Division 3 Intermediate
Beaufort Division 3 Intermediate
Castlegregory Division 3 Junior
Glenflesk Division 3 Intermediate
Kenmare Division 3 Junior
Legion Division 3 Senior
Lispole Division 3 Junior
Na Gaeil Division 3 Novice
Renard Division 3 Junior
Skellig Rangers Division 3 Junior
Tarbert Division 3 Junior
Tuosist Division 3 Novice

Ballydonoghue Division 4 Novice
Ballyduff Division 4 Junior
Brosna Division 4 Novice
Cordal Division 4 Junior
Cromane Division 4 Novice
Duagh Division 4 Intermediate
Firies Division 4 Junior
Glenbeigh/Glencar Division 4 Junior
Keel Division 4 Junior
Scartaglen Division 4 Novice
St Patricks Division 4 Junior
Valentia Division 4 Junior

Asdee Division 5 Novice
Ballylongford Division 5 Junior
Churchill Division 5 Novice
Derrynane Division 5 Novice
Fossa Division 5 Novice
Kilgarvan Division 5 Novice
Knocknagoshel Division 5 Novice
Listry Division 5 Novice
Moyvane Division 5 Junior
St Senans Division 5 Novice
Templenoe Division 5 Novice
Clounmacon Novice


It's worth looking at a few of the names in Intermediate, Junior and even Novice, and calling to mind some of their recent/not so recent players who we would all know and recognise. These clubs are small clubs, always have been, and but for the Divisions might never have made it. Names like the Spillanes of Templenoe, currently Division 5 and Novice; Seamus Moynihan of division 3 and Intermediate Glenflesk. Maurice Fitzgerald and Jack O'Shea of division 2 and Inter St. Mary's Cahirciveen. The list goes on and on. Obviously small clubs are cyclical and can get crops of players, but the point is that even if you are the only lad able to lace his boots on the team, you can still aspire to play for your Division and for Kerry.

The Division Sides are :

Shannon Rangers :
East Kerry :
Mid Kerry :
Feale Rangers :
West Kerry :
Kenmare (same name as the club) :
St. Brendans :
St. Kierans :
South Kerry :

Basically any club mentioned above who is not a 'Senior' club will fall into one of these divisional sides.

[azoffaly]

And finally, at a risk of boring everyone to tears, here is the current Kerry panel (from the munster final) and their clubs. Members of Division Sides in bold

Diarmuid Murphy (Dingle) ;

Pádraig Reidy (Scartaglin),
Tom O'Sullivan (Rathmore),
Marc Ó Sé (An Ghaeltacht);

Tomás Ó Sé (An Ghaeltacht),
Aidan O'Mahony (Rathmore),
Killian Young (Renard);

Darragh Ó Sé (An Ghaeltacht),
Micheal Quirke (Kerins O'Rahillys);

Declan O'Sullivan (Capt)(Dromid Pearses),
Eoin Brosnan (Dr. Crokes),
Paul Galvin (Finuge);

Colm Cooper (Dr. Crokes),
Kieran Donaghy (Austin Stacks),
Mike Frank Russell (Laune Rangers)

Subs:
Kieran Cremin (Dr. Crokes),
Seamus Scanlon (Currow),
Sean O'Sullivan (Cromane),
Mossie Lyons (Castleisland Desmonds)
Darren O'Sullivan (Glenbeigh/Glencar),
Bryan Sheehan (St. Marys),
Daniel Bohane (Austin Stacks),
Paul O'Connor (Kenmare),
Rónan Ó Flatharta (An Ghaeltacht),
Kieran O'Leary (Dr. Crokes),
Tommy Griffin (Dingle),
Ronan Hussey (Sneem),
Donncha Walsh (Cromane),
Tommy Walsh (Kerins O'Rahillys),
Declan Quill (Kerins O'Rahillys)

So 12 out of 30 of the current Kerry senior football team play their 'club' football for a mixture of Intermediate, Junior and Novice level teams.

[TheManFromFerbane]

I think it has its merits and I wouldn't mind seeing it implemented in some way. i.e. maybe instead of the league. But for me, as a player, the Club Championship is the competition that I am always going to want to win.

Making this divisional Championship the "premier" competition wouldn't sit well with me to be honest.

[azoffaly]

It would take getting used to alright, but what has happened in Kerry is that the Divisional championship is the major championship for your average junior club, so like Dromid Pearse's winning their first ever a couple of years ago was huge.

The County Championship is also huge, and as it beds down, the divisional sides do gain an identity and it is seen as a savage honour to be picked for your divisional side, and to win it is like a mini All Ireland, as the Divisional side is almost like a county team.

It is definitely a boost in terms of standards though, and if it is implemented, it HAS to be as the premier competition, in order that the preparation, intensity and interest in the games does translate into high standards.

In the Offaly situation, perhaps Ferbane would be a stand alone club team, along with the likes of Rhode, Clara, Tullamore, Edenderry, etc. etc. But even if they weren't winning a County Championship as 'West Offaly' wouldn't be something to be sneezed at, and there would be no massacres of teams totally out of their depth.

[Lone Shark]

I did something on this once upon a time, but I think that to operate it in an Offaly context we'd have to be a little bit more moderate about it. I'm thinking here about guys like Conor Mahon for Kilcormac or Sean Ryan for Birr - between all the levels he's at already, adding in a West/South Offaly football team wouldn't help anything.

It's a bit out of date, but here's the link anyway....

http://www.uibhfhaili.com/offalygaa/columns/ls1.asp

I like the idea of all players having access to the senior championship, but at the same time I don't think we want to stretch people too far. For both football and hurling, I'd like to see four divisional teams, taking in North, mid, West and South Offaly. However in order to do this you could only have 8 actual clubs at senior level, assuming all of the divisional teams are senior. I would go for 12 teams in the senior championship, 12 in Intermediate and then the divisional teams can only pick from junior clubs. That way even the standard of the intermediate championship would be much higher, so one way or another players would be playing at a higher level. If South Offaly can only cope at intermediate football or ditto with North Offaly at intermediate hurling, then so be it.

Key things I'd like to see would be:

(1) Only players past the under 21 age group to be considered. This would reduce the burden on younger players and give more football to players that probably only play for one team as things stand.

(2) The ultimate aim with these teams should not be "win at all costs". They should train together and play together but the North Offaly team should only complement the work being done by Daingean/Capincur/Ballycommon etc., not prepare a team from scratch.

(3) I don't think you need seperate championships within championships. A West Offaly championship is a nice idea, but you have to remember that club footballers in Kerry don't hurl as well - club footballers in Offaly often do. Finding time to put together a knockout tournament involving 8/10 clubs wouldn't be easy.


Overall AZ I think the root and branch thing wouldn't work. Part of the strength of Offaly GAA is that we do have an inordinate amount of clubs and the participation rate is very high. I know I keep going back to this, but you look at the size of Ballycumber parish and they field seven adult teams - that wouldn't happen in a divisional structure, because the whole drive of getting a club championship win would be all the further away for Ballycumber since Colm Quinn and Rory Guinan would be away playing for West Offaly instead. A structure like Cork's where a junior player can get noticed playing for Avondhu or Muskerry is fine, but a structure whereby it takes a club of huge size or else an amalgamation to win a county championship would kill the drive in a lot of smaller clubs. Offaly can look back to 1996 when Shannonbridge won the county title, and this drives on clubs like Brigid's, Doon and Ballycumber, all of whom have made semi finals in recent years. That doesn't happen in Kerry, and I think we'd feel the loss.

[True Red]

Here is my 2 cents on this even though I dont think the incumbent County Board have the foresight or the will to implement this and follow it through resolutely.

Based on the Teams that are currently in the Senior football championship and including a few intermediate teams(including ourselves), the following is a list of amalgamations that could reasonably all compete for a "Premier" (for want of a better word) title.

Rhode/Croghan/Clonmore
Tullamore/Durrow
Shamrocks/Killeigh/Kilcormac
Clara?
Ferbane/Belmont/Cloghan
Gracefield/Raheen
Shannonbridge/Doon
Ballycumber/Tubber/Erin Rovers
Edenderry/Ballyfore
Walsh Island/Clonbulloge/Bracknagh

People might point to the Rhode amalgamation and say that its too strong but the Shamrocks/killeigh/kilcormac contingent would be well able for them,would the Walsh Island/Clonbulloge/Bracknagh collaberation.Plus Edenderry/Ballyfore would always fancy their chances

Whatever about results, this competition would be a close run thing and would lead to a higher standard of football in the county. It also would guarantee that our "county" players would be getting a lot more competitive football which would benefit the county in the long run.

[The Magpie]

Interesting. I'd safely say that the Shamrocks/Killeigh/KK conglomerate represents the biggest parish combination in history!

I won't take offence at Clara being the only club that remains alone...we'll adopt the Frank Murphy siege mentality

And why wasn't Edenderry/Rhode considered

[azoffaly]

As I've said, this would need time to bed in completely, but the overall aim is to raise the standard of our club football. Clubs like Ballycumber would not suffer Lone Shark, just as Clubs like Dromid, Knocknagoshel, Finuge or Sneem don't suffer. It becomes a natural extension of the club, rather than a replacement.

I take your point about club teams not having the big title to aim at, but take a look at Ardfert in Kerry. 3 years ago they were part of the North Kerry set up, Saint Kieran's I think, but have made great strides.

The way the progression works is as follows....

If the club wins the 'club' junior title, they enter the Intermediate the next year. If they win the Intermediate title they can *if they wish* enter the Senior Championship as a stand alone entity. There is then relegation from that. Glenflesk did this a while ago as well, and Ardfert are currently doing it.

If they are not eligible, or do not want to play alone because of no chance of winning it on their own, they play with the Divisional side. Several teams like Cahirciveen and Waterville have won intermediates in the recent past, but elected to stay with South Kerry. This is really because, as I've said, the Divisional side becomes institutionalised and an extension of the region, rather than a replacement.

I realise it is a complete shift in outlook, but I honestly feel the benefits of this are worth looking at. If Sean Ryan could train and play with West Offaly in the senior championship, he would be a better footballer than he would be just playing with Birr. Of course he would continue to play with Birr as well, and believe me, the club identity does not get diluted.

If we had an 8 team county Senior Championship, with only clubs playing the other championships, I would see something like this, at the moment, with potentially other big clubs reawakening in the future to expand it.

Clubs
Rhode, Tullamore, Clara, Shamrocks

Divisionals (NOT AMALGAMATIONS)
West Offaly
Ferbane, Shannonbridge, Erin Rovers, Doon

Mid West
Ballycumber, Tubber,

South Offaly
Birr, Rynaghs, Carrick, Coolderry, Skenagh etc etc

North Offaly
Daingean, Ballyfore, St. Brigids, Cappincur, Walsh Island


etc etc. The numbers could be played around with, and actually you could get more clubs and more divisionals with a proper look at geography, strength etc etc.

I would be the last person to try and diminish the Club teams, and in fact I think this, with inter Division championships instead of a the traditional league would be a good way of raising the standards.

[Lone Shark]

As I've said, this would need time to bed in completely, but the overall aim is to raise the standard of our club football. Clubs like Ballycumber would not suffer Lone Shark, just as Clubs like Dromid, Knocknagoshel, Finuge or Sneem don't suffer.

That depends though - if by raising the standard of your club football you raise the bar to a level that a club picking off a population of less than 2000 cannot hope to match, are you not basically condemning 90% of the clubs in Offaly to never winning a senior championship ever again? As a result, do you not deliver a mortal blow to that club who suddenly find the holy grail out of reach, with a subsequent loss in interest?

In the last 50 years two clubs, Shannon Rangers and An Ghaeltacht, have won Kerry county titles that aren't picking from large population bases, and even those two would have more than most Offaly senior clubs. That's all very well when you have large bases to pick from, but in Offaly we don't. We run the risk of making the senior championship the preserve of very few teams. Basically unless another Walsh Island comes along with a freak generation of talent, you run the risk of smaller clubs not committing as wholeheartedly as they do now because they can never win the county championship. I'm not saying it would happen, but it might.

If we had a situation like Kerry, where Gaelic Football is a religion then I could see your point. However I can't see smaller Offaly clubs thriving to the same extent in this format.

I'd be interested to hear what posters from those kind of clubs would think.


Incidentally let's not forget that the main reason that counties like Kerry, Cork and Dublin have competitive senior championships is that they have so many players playing football, they have more than enough top class players to go around. I'd say that once you make sure that every player in Offaly, irrespective of what end of the county they come from, has the opprtunity to play good quality football and hurling you've done all you can.

[azoffaly]

I'd say that once you make sure that every player in Offaly, irrespective of what end of the county they come from, has the opprtunity to play good quality football and hurling you've done all you can.

That's exactly the point of this scenario. This is done in two ways
a) Raise the standard by reducing the numbers, or at least creating Divisional teams and
b) Allowing even players from the worst club teams to aspire to the Divisional side.

You missed my Ardfert and Glenflesk analogy. There would be nothing stopping smaller clubs who win Intermediate having a flake at Senior if they wanted to. The issue of whether they would be good enough to win it is a moot point, but the fact is they would have to be better than they are now to even survive at Senior level.

I think this scenario allows smaller clubs to compete and progress at their own level, but also does not impose a glass ceiling for club players from those clubs.

As things currently stand, you might get a Shannonbridge, or Tubber or someone like that winning a county championship every 30 years or so, and in the other years they are just fulfilling fixtures. In my scenario, the players from those clubs would be doing savage battle at intermediate level alone, and would be able to play senior football on a competitive level with the Division.

So while you might be limiting the really small clubs chances of winning a county Championship, if they do suddenly spawn a great crop, they can progress to do just that, and in the majority of years in between, they can still have a realistic ambition of winning the title every year with the Division.

Also, this quote

If we had a situation like Kerry, where Gaelic Football is a religion then I could see your point.

is, in my humble opinion of course , a little bit lazy. Football is not a religion, and I know you didn't mean it literally, it is simply a very popular game and reinforces their identity.

The main reasons why it is still so popular are the structures and approach to games down there. They play games without county players, they have many club games every year, and they all have the chance to progress and can see that. If football in Kerry was limited to our sort of championship, then they would suffer a drop off in standards as well, and the players I mentioned before would be greatly reduced.

Football in Kerry is very well organised, and very well run, with the two aims you mentioned above in mind. That is what we should be aiming for. To finish on a trite note 'A rising tide lifts all boats'.

[Lone Shark]

Fair point about the religion thing - duly acknowledged.


As regards the other aspect though, since 1950, 8 small clubs have won the Offaly senior championship, not including the big 4 you've mentioned there, while in the same spell only Shannon Gaels and An Ghaeltacht have done the same in Kerry. If divisional teams were applied in Offaly with the greater standard required to win, it's fair to say that probably only Ferbane and Walsh Island would have had teams good enough to win county championships.

Now on the surface that's no bad thing, but at the moment in Offaly, the senior championship is mainly made up of these type of clubs, and if we raise the bar to an unattainable height (unless you happen on a freak family like Lowrys or Connors) you create an environment whereby it's all too easy to see smaller clubs perhaps stop trying to a certain degree. The fillip that a county championship win gives to a small community like Shannonbridge or Ballycumber lasts for a generation at least, whereas a win for "West Offaly" wouldn't mean nearly the same in Gussie's, Killeen's, Martin's or Hiney's.

Obviously the current system is far from perfect, and things like one championship game in April followed by another in July wouldn't happen down there, but I still think aping them completely is not necessarily suited.

[azoffaly]

As regards the other aspect though, since 1950, 8 small clubs have won the Offaly senior championship, not including the big 4 you've mentioned there, while in the same spell only Shannon Gaels and An Ghaeltacht have done the same in Kerry.

The point is that the best teams win it, and that there are more good teams in the championship than weak ones, which raises the overall standard, which is my aim. As you say, and i've said, there is still nothing stopping a small club who gets a freak occurance of a family coming along and progressing through and choosing to go alone for a couple of years, but the intervening periods wouldn't be soul destroying junior and intermediate defeats year after year in my proposal.

whereas a win for "West Offaly" wouldn't mean nearly the same in Gussie's, Killeen's, Martin's or Hiney's.

I would disagree with that to a certain extent. Obviously the once in a blue moon Championship win is unbelievable, but don't underestimate the sense of togetherness and identity something like South Kerry, or West Offaly would engender over time. Obviously the first 5 years or so would be a bedding in period, but I;m talking about something for the long term here.


Also, I agree with this to a certain extent

Obviously the current system is far from perfect, and things like one championship game in April followed by another in July wouldn't happen down there, but I still think aping them completely is not necessarily suited.

I would like to use their system as a template because it works, I've seen it in action and you can't argue with their results. Their is no shame, quite the opposite in fact, in copying and adapting things that work elsewhere. Professional teams do it all the time in relation to youth systems, training methods etc. If you can't learn from the best, who can you learn from?

I completely agree with you that there are extenuating circumstances in Offaly, not least of which is the dual player, but I think if serious thought was given to the Kerry model as a base point, that we could gain serious benefits in Offaly. The more I think about it, the more I can see possibilities for it, but it would need a huge shift in thinking, not to mind a long bedding in period while people get used to the idea of playing side by side with mortal enemies

I'm still liking it though.

[Lone Shark]

Overall, obviously there would be considerable benefits to the move, I'm not going to knock that. I would stop short at this though:

I'm not talking about loose alliances, I'm talking about a root and branch approach at senior, under 21 and minor level.

I would definitely not want to see it at minor level. There are a lot of clubs out there that already have a lot of difficulty in fielding minor teams, indeed already there is a case for saying we have too many amalgamations at that grade and too few people playing football. I know you can't create young lads/girls where none exist, but the younger brother is playing with Ferbane minors this year and Shannonbridge now come to play with them. His best guess is that they'll have three lads from Shannonbridge on the panel - not on the team, but on the panel. I find that quite stunning. Okay, I know Shannonbridge have suffered a serious dip in population in recent years, but there are at least five lads that won't play because they are involved in serious rugby, while there are a good few others that play soccer etc. but just don't bother. If you create a West Offaly team, that'll be the only team that will field. Bad enough Shannonbridge will only have three graduates into their adult teams next year (assuming they all keep playing!!), but imagine if Doon and Pullough weren't cobbling together a team of their own and they took the same attitude. There should be a rake of minor grades specifically designed to make as many teams field as possible. Not reducing it to only twelve odd minor panels in the county, which would be the result of this.


Overall you'd need to make a lot of things happen before it would work.

(1) Outside selectors and managers would have to be appointed. The biggest danger to the system would be clubs pulling out due to petty squabbling over bias, be it perceived or real. Say you pick a West Offaly team, Erin Rovers, Shannonbridge, Doon and Cloghan would all expect 2/3 players each, Ferbane and Ballycumber would expect four or five at least, and that's before Tubber get included as I assume they would and expecting two or three as well. You couldn't take the field with 23 players, but if anyone falls short of that allocation, or God help us one of the entities get no-one, and suddenly we have a huff. There would have to be huge efforts to make sure it would all be above board and be seen to be above board.

(2) Just out of curiosity, who would pay for the bread and butter expenses involved in training etc.? Does it get paid for at county board level, do you charge all clubs equally, do you charge based on members.....(I'm not trying to stir here, I'm genuinely curious)

(3) How do you seperate fixtures? Do intermediate/junior fixtures take place on separate weeks? Say for example the players come back off county duty and in seven days you play all the junor intermediate matches, but West Offaly want Jimmy Coughlan, Trevor and whoever else from Doon to train once or twice with them during the week? Squabbling over players could get very messy. You could do this with junior teams and junior amalgamations where to the best of my knowledge there aren't any county players in there to mess things up, but otherwise it gets messy.



And all that's before we get involved in dual players and the like.


You're beginning to win me over AZ, but I'm not a believer just yet.....

[TheManFromFerbane]

I know you can't create young lads/girls where none exist

You need to have a chat with your da LS