Offaly u21 Hurling

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Meant to get to this sooner.

Look, this was a disgrace. Not from the players mind, they are blameless, but from the County Board and the management. From the moment Kirwan was appointed, this year was a write off. Anyone familiar with his record over teams and his manner with them could tell instantly that he was in no way suited to preparing and improving U-21's for the modern game or to be tomorrow's seniors. How so many seemed to know this, except those who appointed him, escapes me.

From the preparation of the team to the selection of the panel/team, this year and that management were incredible for their utter ineptitude.
What more can anyone say expect that the management should be sacked or resign immediately.

[jimbob17]

Agree GDFTP. The horror stories i hear about their training regime is absolutely pathetic. The senior players had no contact with this panel until after they were beaten by the dubs in senior. they were ran around the place with no hurling being done like a bad junior football team till a few weeks ago. The facts are that young lads know better than management now and some of the better players are now declining to go in to county under age set-ups in hurling especially because it is a joke the way it is run and is seen as a waste of time by intelligent young players who know better.

The dubs have been together from just before christmas, meet regularly for sessions and had qualified fitness people behind the scenes who also work in tandem with the senior set-up. everything was co-ordinated on a professional level and the results are there to see with serious progress being made in dublin with the hurling.

meanwhile, back in the midlands, Offaly were being run up and down hills like a bad junior football team by archaic dinosaurs who know nothing about appropriate, or correct training methods. They werent coached in hurling or anything for that matter and with no game plan, lads came and went on a whim. they were hammered by every team they played in challenge matches. They were given no instruction in terms of weights or strength and conditioning and started training about three months ago. their warm up was about as unprofessional as one could ever see in inter county at any level including u14.

Somehow though i dont blame the management as it was not exactly their fault that they got the job. Who ultimately is responsible for putting these people in place is another set of dinosaurs in the county board who are the real culprits and the reason for offaly hurling being on its knees. the people they have appointed in the last few years to minor and 21 county management is the reason why hurling is suffering in the county at county level but what should we expect as those who are choosing these people are absolutely clueless themselves and should have zero power with selection of management as they simply dont know what is required at the top level.

There are obvious political decisions being made with regard to where you are from when David Magner and Kevin Waters cant make an OY minor panel or team respectively in 2010 and find themselves in with the seniors and 21,s respectively the following year. There are other fine hurlers in that Davids team ie (Cussen and Scanlon from Clara among others) that would never be considered for county only for they won a 21. There are others that should have also been in with minor and 21 and are better than half the young lads from banagher and such areas who are subs on co panels because they might be friendly with a clubmate selector. In fairness to Kirwin, he did give fellas from the north a chance unlike some of his predecessors at minor and 21 level who are clouded with misguided ignorance that you cant play for offaly unless you live south of Kilcormac.

If these muppets in the county board continue to put other clueless muppets in charge, it wont be long before we are fearing playing westmeath and Carlow, let alone wexford and dublin. It is a disgrace what is happening........

[joe bloggs]

There are obvious political decisions being made with regard to where you are from when David Magner and Kevin Waters cant make an OY minor panel or team respectively in 2010 and find themselves in with the seniors and 21,s respectively the following year. There are other fine hurlers in that Davids team ie (Cussen and Scanlon from Clara among others) that would never be considered for county only for they won a 21. There are others that should have also been in with minor and 21 and are better than half the young lads from banagher and such areas who are subs on co panels because they might be friendly with a clubmate selector. In fairness to Kirwin, he did give fellas from the north a chance unlike some of his predecessors at minor and 21 level who are clouded with misguided ignorance that you cant play for offaly unless you live south of Kilcormac.
:

Chip on shoulder stuff here with regard selection of players.
Waters played corner back last year for the minors in Tullamore against Kilkenny and paddy murphy hurled that day too. I suppose it was south ofaly bias that kept him off the u21 team this year.
Look back on who contested minor finals in offaly in the last ten years and you won't see too many lads from north of Kilcormac

[jimbob17]

No chip on any shoulder here, just an honest thought that reflects what most knowledgable people think. Tell me what is wrong about anything i have said.... Yes Waters may have played v KK but was sub v westmeath in the first round and was only picked after because Damien Fox was a selector and The fellas that played v westmeath proved themselves to be not good enough. To my knowledge, waters declined to go near the 21s this year as he didnt believe that jogging laps and running up over hills and down valleys was beneficial to his hurling. And he wasnt the only one not to go in for this reason. Remember, these young lads are in college and meet lads from other counties, compare notes and find out what other teams are doing. they know what is what from quality training they will get at third level, and realise that the dinosaurs are not going to help improve their game. They know the wrong stuff is being done and that it is a waste of time, so they dont bother with it, that is a fact.

You cannot seriously tell me that magner was not good enough for a minor panel last year, ditto cushen, scanlon, Kelleher and Mckeogh. Not even talking about the team here, just the panel while a rake of average club hurlers from the south of offaly took places on the bench. I know the score better than most with how things are done and many fellas from the south have acknowledged this to me over the years. selectors sons and nephews often get onto a panel or team at the expense of the better man.

Tell me when and how any offaly minor or u21 hurling team was properly prepared in the past six years, what they did and how they progressed. Beaten regularly by westmeath dublin, carlow and wexford is now our lot, and you have the audacity to suggest that there is nothing wrong with leaving lads out who dont play in minor finals. so what if teams dont get to minor finals, that doesnt mean that there cant be good players in weaker hurling areas. look at shane dooley, derek molloy, the lads mentioned already, Tom Spain probably one of our best 21 hurlers and there is plenty more where they come from. Tullamore played two county finals in a row winning one, beating the best offaly has to offer en route. Shane Kelly never made an OY underage team at minor or 21 yet is still good enough for the senior panel under joe dooley. I guarantee you that neither he nor derek molloy would even be on the panel but for the fact that joe dooley was in charge and had an open mind on fellas no matter where they were from ditto chris mcdonald. Gerry Quinn clare comes from a football club, Paul galvin kerry comes from a hurling club yet are selected for opposite codes because they are good players, but we have people who cant see beyond the parish boundary over our teams. all i suggest is that there is fair play to all for the benefit of the county. Finbarr Cullen and other lads from football areas were on All Ireland winning minor teams when OY last had underage success in hurling. best we get back to an open fair minded approach or hurling in offaly will die on its knees. Cant afford to let these fellas slip away im afraid for the benefit of an average club hurler getting a seat on a county underage bench.

[backofthenet]

jimbob, again you talk about this south / north offaly thing. This is simply not the case, there is bias against clubs from both sides of the county depending on the person that takes charge of the team.

An example I could give was the under 21s last year. Coolderry won the county championship yet didnt have anyone on the team? Tell me what other county in Ireland has this ever happened before.

As i previously stated I was very impressed with Magner last week, however I cant comment on how good or bad he was hurling last year and players tend to change rapidly from 17-22. On Waters he was on the Tullamore senior team until the semi finals last year before he was dropped, this would hint at a drop in form. Also he was involved in the senior set up before being dropped so I think you couldnt claim that there was bias there. You state that he played against KK last year but only because Damien Fox was a selector...is this not the sort of crap youre trying to get rid of?? From my viewing of Waters he would not have been an improvement on the corner backs that lined out against dublin last week. He is young and has plenty of time to improve but i dont think he would have made any difference.

Im all for the best player getting the offaly jersey, its why I have been saying for a while now that we need someone from outside the county to take charge of the juvenile set up as a whole and track how the teams are doing, including the trials as I feel the way offaly do trials is ridiculous and they are done too haphazardly and quickly, generally over 1-2 sessions which i feel is about half of what is required. No more than 30 lads should be called into a trial at a time and each of them given a full training game in order to ascess if they are up to the standard or not. The problem is the persons over the trials have their teams picked already, and if someone hasnt appeared on their radar before the trial the chances are they will be dismissed without being given a fair trial.

On the minor finals its an unneccessary comment, but it is the truth, north offaly people have to realise that they are making progress but they are generally not the strongest at any underage level without joining up 5-6 clubs. Perhaps in time these clubs will develop their own individual teams and this will greatly increase the teams competing for championships which will be extremely positive. But at the moment i feel there are some from north offaly who want to run before they can walk, One under 21 title will not start a winning streak, and i would be very suprised if that one title will feed through to senior level, as has been shown by clareens success at under 21, senior is a whole different ball game.

[jimbob17]

there is bias against clubs from both sides of the county depending on the person that takes charge of the team.

An example I could give was the under 21s last year. Coolderry won the county championship yet didnt have anyone on the team? Tell me what other county in Ireland has this ever happened before.

Agree fully Backofthenet that there is bias depending on who takes charge. my issue is entirely this. An awful lot of people who are put in charge have this bias in them. And before i begin, i would like to point out that i am a genuine balanced Oy supporter and i am not from north Offaly so have no alterior motives but ive seen some horror calls of biasedness from being involved in a development squad for a short time few years ago and it has played on my mind since. as a result, i would be very slow to get involved in such a thing again unless those involved with the squad were fair and unbiased towards their own.

I played in a 21 final many years ago where no member from either of the two teams who played in the co 21 final played for the 21 county team that year, which appeared a little strange at the time.

As i previously stated I was very impressed with Magner last week, however I cant comment on how good or bad he was hurling last year and players tend to change rapidly from 17-22. On Waters he was on the Tullamore senior team until the semi finals last year before he was dropped, this would hint at a drop in form. Also he was involved in the senior set up before being dropped so I think you couldnt claim that there was bias there. You state that he played against KK last year but only because Damien Fox was a selector...is this not the sort of crap youre trying to get rid of?? From my viewing of Waters he would not have been an improvement on the corner backs that lined out against dublin last week. He is young and has plenty of time to improve but i dont think he would have made any difference.

Waters played the full game in the co final and was one of tullamores better performers last year. Maybe my point is unclear so i will try and clarify.. What i am trying to get at is that he was one of the standout minors last year with Quirke and Camon v KK, yet he barely made the team because of a bias that was there against him, was sub for westmeath and if Fox was not a selector, he wouldnt have made the team at all v KK. He was one of Offalys best in a voc schools Allireland final 2 years ago v cork in banagher. Based on this and his performance last year with the minors, he was called in to the co seniors this year and played in walshe cup and friendlies at a very young age. Maybe he might not have made a difference but my point is that a member of the senior panel declined to go in with the 21s because the set-up was a joke, and he was not the only good hurler that declined to go in. I know of at least 5 more who declined. this is the problem. When the best hurlers decline to play because they see it as a waste of time, you know you are at nothing. Magner was excellent last year in two minor challenges i saw and one of the best on the voc schools team, yet was still not considered good enough for the co minors due to what i believe was an unfair bias towards fellas from selectors clubs. Bear in mind that anybody who makes the voc schools team will be on the co minor panel...

On the minor finals its an unneccessary comment, but it is the truth, north offaly people have to realise that they are making progress but they are generally not the strongest at any underage level without joining up 5-6 clubs. Perhaps in time these clubs will develop their own individual teams and this will greatly increase the teams competing for championships which will be extremely positive. But at the moment i feel there are some from north offaly who want to run before they can walk, One under 21 title will not start a winning streak, and i would be very suprised if that one title will feed through to senior level, as has been shown by clareens success at under 21, senior is a whole different ball game.
backofthenetCounty player Posts: 138Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 12:06 am

Agree that no one club are particularly strong but there are very strong individual hurlers in north OY clubs that dont get a chance when they should. Run before they can walk?? did Tullamore and Brosna Gaels not win co senior and intermediate titles in the past two years and Ballinamere are as good as a lot of senior clubs but cant get out of intermediate, and tullamore backed it up with a final appearance the following year. I suppose these were flukes aswell. Agree that maybe Davids dont need to join together now as they have proven to be too strong and Ballinamere, tullamore should maybe go together at 21 with clara joining brosna gaels for that particular age. Davids however were only three clubs and not six, Brosna, Ballinamere and clara. However you cant deny that they won this competition comfortably with some very good players. There are some very good hurlers in North Offaly that OY underage teams need to be successful, but those in charge are pissing a lot of lads off along the way from 14 to 18 with locaL politics and an unwillingness to consider them because where they are from or not from. Also, the fact that the squads are not coached or looked after properly mean that neither quality stuff is done with who is there nor anything is done with potential lads who should be there, leaving us where we are at the moment. Dont tell me backofthenet that you are happy with the position OY underage hurling is in. MY point is that there is a very good reason for this malaise and am simply trying to point out some of the major problems as i am frustrated at looking at what is going on at present.

[joe bloggs]

there is bias against clubs from both sides of the county depending on the person that takes charge of the team.

An example I could give was the under 21s last year. Coolderry won the county championship yet didnt have anyone on the team? Tell me what other county in Ireland has this ever happened before.

Agree fully Backofthenet that there is bias depending on who takes charge. my issue is entirely this. An awful lot of people who are put in charge have this bias in them. And before i begin, i would like to point out that i am a genuine balanced Oy supporter and i am not from north Offaly so have no alterior motives but ive seen some horror calls of biasedness from being involved in a development squad for a short time few years ago and it has played on my mind since. as a result, i would be very slow to get involved in such a thing again unless those involved with the squad were fair and unbiased towards their own.

I played in a 21 final many years ago where no member from either of the two teams who played in the co 21 final played for the 21 county team that year, which appeared a little strange at the time.

As i previously stated I was very impressed with Magner last week, however I cant comment on how good or bad he was hurling last year and players tend to change rapidly from 17-22. On Waters he was on the Tullamore senior team until the semi finals last year before he was dropped, this would hint at a drop in form. Also he was involved in the senior set up before being dropped so I think you couldnt claim that there was bias there. You state that he played against KK last year but only because Damien Fox was a selector...is this not the sort of crap youre trying to get rid of?? From my viewing of Waters he would not have been an improvement on the corner backs that lined out against dublin last week. He is young and has plenty of time to improve but i dont think he would have made any difference.

Waters played the full game in the co final and was one of tullamores better performers last year. Maybe my point is unclear so i will try and clarify.. What i am trying to get at is that he was one of the standout minors last year with Quirke and Camon v KK, yet he barely made the team because of a bias that was there against him, was sub for westmeath and if Fox was not a selector, he wouldnt have made the team at all v KK. He was one of Offalys best in a voc schools Allireland final 2 years ago v cork in banagher. Based on this and his performance last year with the minors, he was called in to the co seniors this year and played in walshe cup and friendlies at a very young age. Maybe he might not have made a difference but my point is that a member of the senior panel declined to go in with the 21s because the set-up was a joke, and he was not the only good hurler that declined to go in. I know of at least 5 more who declined. this is the problem. When the best hurlers decline to play because they see it as a waste of time, you know you are at nothing. Magner was excellent last year in two minor challenges i saw and one of the best on the voc schools team, yet was still not considered good enough for the co minors due to what i believe was an unfair bias towards fellas from selectors clubs. Bear in mind that anybody who makes the voc schools team will be on the co minor panel...

On the minor finals its an unneccessary comment, but it is the truth, north offaly people have to realise that they are making progress but they are generally not the strongest at any underage level without joining up 5-6 clubs. Perhaps in time these clubs will develop their own individual teams and this will greatly increase the teams competing for championships which will be extremely positive. But at the moment i feel there are some from north offaly who want to run before they can walk, One under 21 title will not start a winning streak, and i would be very suprised if that one title will feed through to senior level, as has been shown by clareens success at under 21, senior is a whole different ball game.
backofthenetCounty player Posts: 138Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 12:06 am

Agree that no one club are particularly strong but there are very strong individual hurlers in north OY clubs that dont get a chance when they should. Run before they can walk?? did Tullamore and Brosna Gaels not win co senior and intermediate titles in the past two years and Ballinamere are as good as a lot of senior clubs but cant get out of intermediate, and tullamore backed it up with a final appearance the following year. I suppose these were flukes aswell. Agree that maybe Davids dont need to join together now as they have proven to be too strong and Ballinamere, tullamore should maybe go together at 21 with clara joining brosna gaels for that particular age. Davids however were only three clubs and not six, Brosna, Ballinamere and clara. However you cant deny that they won this competition comfortably with some very good players. There are some very good hurlers in North Offaly that OY underage teams need to be successful, but those in charge are pissing a lot of lads off along the way from 14 to 18 with locaL politics and an unwillingness to consider them because where they are from or not from. Also, the fact that the squads are not coached or looked after properly mean that neither quality stuff is done with who is there nor anything is done with potential lads who should be there, leaving us where we are at the moment. Dont tell me backofthenet that you are happy with the position OY underage hurling is in. MY point is that there is a very good reason for this malaise and am simply trying to point out some of the major problems as i am frustrated at looking at what is going on at present.

I never said that you have to be from a club competing in the final to make a co panel, but it is obvious that when it is south Offaly teams consistently appearing in semi finals and finals over the last ten years, then they will be the ones making up the bulk of the co. minor panel.

I would agree with you that from time to time some players do make a panel through connections,but they could just as easily be keeping a lad from south offaly off the panel.
I would also agree with you about the standard of preparation. it goes back to the Co Board to make the right appointments, and the see to it that the resources are put in place to support them.

With regard to individual players from north Offaly, there are talented players there but not in the same numbers as in the south (why else do Davids amalgamate, Tullamore play A but rarely are competitive at minor and most other clubs play B). Another problem is that some of the best players in north Offaly are dual players (eg Cussen) and this would go against them, as anyone knows it is difficult to serve two masters. Neville Coughlan is a fella who springs to mind who tried it at senior level for a few years.

I would also look at schools hurling for an indication of where strength lie. Neither Tullamore or Killina have made any major impact in second level hurling (both play at "c" level). On the other hand, Birr play in A Colleges, Banagher play in A vocational schools ( winning an All ireland and two leinster titles in the last two years) and Kilcormac in B Voc. (also winining leinster titles in recent years)

You mentioned that if a player made the Offaly Voc team then they would be on the co minor panel. this shows that you are not really in tune with hurling at this age grade. In Offaly, the Vocational team will not have any player from St. Brendans in Birr, as a result no players from Birr, Clareen, Coolderry, Shinrone or CRC ,as well as the players from Kinnity and Drumcullen that choose to go to Birr. You should also know that many players from Coolderry and Shinrone attend Roscrea, with whom they have won Munster titles and inter-county vocational titles

I would love to see the day when we have an even spread of players from all over the county as it could only benefit the county. I looked at the line up of the Kilkenny minor team that played Wexford and there were 13 different clubs represented on the starting 15 plus six more clubs represented on the bench. We don't even have that many clubs playing minor hurling.

Finally, to claim that Derek Molloy would not be on the Offaly panel except for Joe Dooley is an insult to Molloy. Ask anyone in Offaly about Molloy and they would agree that he is an outstanding hurler (pity he was gone on saturday). I think if you looked it up you would find he was playing for Offaly before Joe Dooley took over.