Wicklow v Offaly, July 7th, Aughrim @ 3.00pm

[Lone Shark]

I think that we have the potential to be a division two team at least but it's probably a little biased to say that that's where we belong all the same - division 3 is probably a far enough reflection, and hopefully that's where we'll be in Spring 2009 and start from there.

I also agree that the Tommy Murphy Cup is an absolute waste of time. Funny how everyone likes to highlight how Louth have come on, and are blissfully ignoring how football in Tipperary and Clare has if anything gone downhill since they won the thing. Plus, to add to what the Bare Biffo pointed out, nobody was praising football in Louth when half the team was abandoning the panel ahead of the qualifiers and heading over to the States - hardly the sign of a team on the up.

The lack of preparation for 2008 already evident is unquestionably the real
problem, as Muck Savage pointed out. It's on those grounds that I think OF could be right in that we should be preparing for division 4 for a long time to come - not because we didn't win the Tommy Murphy.

[Offalys Future]

So you are a Wicklow sub last weekend and you dont get a run.
You yourself know that this year you gave it a good shot but you know you can put alot more in. You saw what the joy of winning has brought to your fellow players and the supporters that were in Croke Park.
Next year you want to be part of that, you want to play in Croke Park, so you are going to leave no stone unturned until you reach that goal.
Now not all the Wicklow subs will have that mentality but i am sure some will.

Offaly players and supporters think they are too good for the Tommy Murphy Cup which they are not.

I also agree that the Tommy Murphy Cup is an absolute waste of time. Funny how everyone likes to highlight how Louth have come on, and are blissfully ignoring how football in Tipperary and Clare has if anything gone downhill since they won the thing.

Firstly Tipperary and Clare are dominated with hurling rather than football.
Secondly Tipp and Clare do not have a very good manager as Louth have.
And didnt push on from winning the Tommy Murphy Cup.

Plus, to add to what the Bare Biffo pointed out, nobody was praising football in Louth when half the team was abandoning the panel ahead of the qualifiers and heading over to the States - hardly the sign of a team on the up.

Lets get a few facts straight here first.
After Louth lost to Wexford they then played Limerick of which
13 Players that were involved against Wexford were also involved again.
They then played Limerick of which
12 Players that were involved against Wexford were also involved again.
Then they played Cork of which
15 Players that were involved against Wexford were also involved again.

So your point is Lone Shark?
Half the team didnt leave just a few lads that thought they were bigger than the team.

What McEneaney was able to do this year was that like the Wicklow Subs above will next year.
Louth players enjoyed success last year in the Tommy Murphy Cup and 13 of them experienced playing in this years qualifiers at some stage.
The guys that didnt make it last year trained and it paid off. They got their chance.

Louth like every other county you are going to get lads that think they are bigger than the team, and just because they were substituted they leave the panel. But he hadnt a problem with this as he knew he had lads that had the work done and knew that they would do well.
Different Mentallity.

Oh and just one point to the bare biffo
Cork team that have looked pretty anaemic?
Cork are in this years All-Ireland Football Semi Final.

[Lone Shark]

So you are a Wicklow sub last weekend and you dont get a run.
You yourself know that this year you gave it a good shot but you know you can put alot more in.

That's debatable. A lot of Wicklow players put everything they had into this year, and in the cold of winter they might remember the Tommy Murphy but they'll remember failing to win a proper championship match too. I'm not saying some of them can't give more, but I very much doubt any Mick O'Dwyer team took the field unfit or unprepared in that regard, even allowing for his absence through illness.

I also agree that the Tommy Murphy Cup is an absolute waste of time. Funny how everyone likes to highlight how Louth have come on, and are blissfully ignoring how football in Tipperary and Clare has if anything gone downhill since they won the thing.

Firstly Tipperary and Clare are dominated with hurling rather than football.
Secondly Tipp and Clare do not have a very good manager as Louth have.
And didnt push on from winning the Tommy Murphy Cup.

Clare are a bigger county than Offaly, with several very competitive football clubs and with very close to 50% of the county both geographically and population wise that would be football first and hurling second - certainly not "hurling dominated". They just happen to have better hurlers than footballers for the last ten years. They also brought in an All Ireland winning manager (albeit it didn't turn out well). They had at least as much as Louth to build on - but they lost to Waterford.

Anyway, if we were to look at it your way, does it not say it all about the Tommy Murphy Cup that these kind of teams can win it when teams like Roscommon, Cavan, Sligo and Wexford have all entered and lost?

Plus, to add to what the Bare Biffo pointed out, nobody was praising football in Louth when half the team was abandoning the panel ahead of the qualifiers and heading over to the States - hardly the sign of a team on the up.

Lets get a few facts straight here first.
After Louth lost to Wexford they then played Limerick of which
13 Players that were involved against Wexford were also involved again.
They then played Limerick of which
12 Players that were involved against Wexford were also involved again.
Then they played Cork of which
15 Players that were involved against Wexford were also involved again.

So your point is Lone Shark?
Half the team didnt leave just a few lads that thought they were bigger than the team.

What McEneaney was able to do this year was that like the Wicklow Subs above will next year.
Louth players enjoyed success last year in the Tommy Murphy Cup and 13 of them experienced playing in this years qualifiers at some stage.
The guys that didnt make it last year trained and it paid off. They got their chance.

Louth like every other county you are going to get lads that think they are bigger than the team, and just because they were substituted they leave the panel. But he hadnt a problem with this as he knew he had lads that had the work done and knew that they would do well.
Different Mentallity.

Oh and just one point to the bare biffo
Cork team that have looked pretty anaemic?
Cork are in this years All-Ireland Football Semi Final.

My point is that if everything in the Louth camp was rosy it's unlikely that so many players would have upped sticks and left. Only Cavan suffered a similar amount of withdrawals, and as we saw all was not well up there. I'm not denying that McEnaney did a good job, he did a great job, but I don't think all is as healthy in Louth as you seem to be portraying. Also, let's not get carried away here - they got a few good wins, but still have a long way to go to prove that they are anything but mid table.

As for Cork, Cork have reached an All Ireland semi final beating only teams who will be in division 3 or 4 of next year's league. They owe their semi final spot a lot more to the luck of the draw than having actually played well - I think anaemic is very fair. I'll revise that if they beat Meath, a side that are barely top 8 and a side that are favourites for that match.

[Offalys Future]

Clare are a bigger county than Offaly, with several very competitive football clubs and with very close to 50% of the county both geographically and population wise that would be football first and hurling second - certainly not "hurling dominated". They just happen to have better hurlers than footballers for the last ten years. They also brought in an All Ireland winning manager (albeit it didn't turn out well). They had at least as much as Louth to build on - but they lost to Waterford.

Lets get this clear, they didnt bring the All-Ireland winning manager after they won the Tommy Murphy Cup, they brought him in two years later when there was barely a team in place and they didnt even train properly.

Anyway, if we were to look at it your way, does it not say it all about the Tommy Murphy Cup that these kind of teams can win it when teams like Roscommon, Cavan, Sligo and Wexford have all entered and lost?

What have all of the above counties won in the last 3 years?
Sligo apart the rest have won nothing. If you ask me they are of the same mentality of the Offaly footballers.

My point is that if everything in the Louth camp was rosy it's unlikely that so many players would have upped sticks and left. Only Cavan suffered a similar amount of withdrawals, and as we saw all was not well up there. I'm not denying that McEnaney did a good job, he did a great job, but I don't think all is as healthy in Louth as you seem to be portraying. Also, let's not get carried away here - they got a few good wins, but still have a long way to go to prove that they are anything but mid table.

So many players didnt leave only a few guys that couldnt take it that they were substituted. You name me one county in Ireland that players have never walked away from a panel?

Yes they have a long way to go, but how far have Offaly to go?
Ye guys think that can get a manager in and go on win a Leinster and contest for an All-Ireland.
Not a chance, lets wake up here now and face the reality, Louth football is in alot healthier state than Offaly football is.
The reason is because they got a good manager, he has a good backroom team, they have tasted success and they have over 25 players that are of a standard.

As for Cork, Cork have reached an All Ireland semi final beating only teams who will be in division 3 or 4 of next year's league. They owe their semi final spot a lot more to the luck of the draw than having actually played well - I think anaemic is very fair. I'll revise that if they beat Meath, a side that are barely top 8 and a side that are favourites for that match.

Cork lost by two points to last years All-Ireland champions, they beat the Connacht champions, and they are now in an All-Ireland Semi Final.
Whether they are playing poor or not to me thats irrelevant.
When it comes to championship performance doesnt matter a damn its all about the results.

[Lone Shark]

Yes they have a long way to go, but how far have Offaly to go?
Ye guys think that can get a manager in and go on win a Leinster and contest for an All-Ireland.
Not a chance, lets wake up here now and face the reality, Louth football is in alot healthier state than Offaly football is.
The reason is because they got a good manager, he has a good backroom team, they have tasted success and they have over 25 players that are of a standard.

Now we are hitting on the nub of the matter, and yes, on this i agree with you. We have an awful long way to go, involving changing the panel, changing the attitude and changing the whole modus operandi. We are in division 4 (and by extension the Tommy Murphy Cup) because we deserve to be. However I don't think it's unfair to say that unlike any of the other 7 teams in that predicament, we have a lot more raw material to work with and as such should be doing better.

I also agree with you that Louth are ahead of us, and yes, all the reasons you mention are primarily responsible. That they put their effort into winning the Tommy Murphy cup on the other hand is not responsible. I think you seem to be mistaking a lack of respect for the whole concept of the Tommy Murphy with a belief that Offaly are above it. Offaly are not above it, but that doesn't make the competition worthwhile. I played in London last year and the Tommy Murphy does them no good either.

[Offalys Future]

London is a whole different ball game and i aint getting into that now.

Lone Shark this is where i am confused.
Pat Roe came in as manager for how long of a term?
Was it not up to him and his selectors to change the panel and the attitude?
From what i have been hearing things are worse than ever.
Just also why did it take so long for a selector to come on board?

I didnt say that louth put all their effort in to winning the Tommy Murphy Cup but they had the work done and players wanted to win it so they went out and did so.
And then this year they built on from that.
And next year they will hope to build on from this year

[the bare biffo]

Ye guys think that can get a manager in and go on win a Leinster and contest for an All-Ireland.

Not sure where you get that from.

With proper preparation, as I believe thay had in 2006, which included a year in division 1, just as Louth had this year, the current Offaly squad is capable of being competitive in Leinster. I certainly wouldn't have aspirations beyond that.

I would also go with LS point that you are confusing lack of belief in the worth of the Tommy Murphy Cup with over inflated regard for Offaly's worth.

[Lone Shark]

I think we're back in the realms of agreement again. I know it's not a place that you're hugely comfortable, but even so....


As I said above, something is rotten in the state of Denmark, and obviously Louth are way ahead of where we are. Most people here would agree with the concerns you express, but the root of this debate is that taking the Tommy Murphy Cup seriously before disappearing off into the club scene doesn't help anything. Addressing all that stuff about selectors and preparation would, but the TM cup doesn't fit into any of that.

As for Pat Roe, well suffice it to say that I (and no doubt the majority of supporters) am distinctly underwhelmed by his methods and his results so far, but rather than reverting to starting from scratch, I'd prefer to let the whole process run it's course. I'd say his resignation would be accepted if offered, but in the absence of that he should be let plug away.

I really hope he's not a big part of that deficit in the books we saw today though.

[Offalys Future]

I dont mind agreement Lone Shark!!

If you are an intercounty manager and you are building a team, you need to have that team together for as long as possible. If Offaly had stayed training together they would have got an extra month and half out of the Tommy Murphy Cup if they had reached the final.
If this month adn a half was used correctly it would be great foundations for the coming year.

To compete for an All-Ireland football title, which is what the ultimate goal should be, you have to train 12 months of the year.
And not just messing around with your clubs, each player has to have a programme that he follows.

By training and winning the Tommy Murphy Cup this would have been a great foundation for next year.

[The Magpie]

The third horseman of the apocalypse rides into town...Traditionally Black, but showing glimpses of white (he never hides his club colours).

the root of this debate is that taking the Tommy Murphy Cup seriously before disappearing off into the club scene doesn't help anything

It won't surprise you when I say I completely disagree. Most of the posters on this forum believe that Offaly have plenty of talent and a bunch of footballers as good as most. In addition, I think most of us are in agreement that the best footballers in the County represented the County this year - if we were to pick teams individually, 70% of the players (and maybe higher) on the actual Offaly team would probably be on all of our teams. So where is the deficit?

Outside of raw talent, the following spring to mind:

- Coaching
- Fitness
- Professional Respect
- Team Bonding
- Character
- Mentality

Perhaps there are additional factors - please add them if you think there are others.

We were short on some or all of these attributes this year. One of the members of the panel told me himself that many of the big guns didn't bother against Wicklow, coasting through the game like it was beneath them.

Participating in and winning this tournament was an opportunity to work in these areas - most definitely a positive thing for Offaly football.

One last comment. As it turned out, participating in this tournament didn't help anything, which was exactly what Loan Shark has said. However, I'm afraid this was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Participating in the Tommy Murphy Cup was a waste of time because we made it a waste of time - not for any other reason.

[OffalyManAway]

Magpie, Offalys Future. Don't be wasting your time .
Lone Shark & co have their own opinion of the TM cup and if your opinion is different, your going to get lambasted here every time.
Best let this one lie or it will just run and run - your not going to get them to come 'round you know.
Personally, I dont have the stomach for the fight so I'll lie down, ironically a bit like Offaly did TM cup !.

[The Magpie]

We'll still love them if they never come 'round

[Lone Shark]

Magpie, Offalys Future. Don't be wasting your time .
Lone Shark & co have their own opinion of the TM cup and if your opinion is different, your going to get lambasted here every time.
Best let this one lie or it will just run and run - your not going to get them to come 'round you know.
Personally, I dont have the stomach for the fight so I'll lie down, ironically a bit like Offaly did TM cup !.

You say it like there's a definitive right and wrong!! Discussion fora would hardly be much fun if that was the case....

Funny how Offaly's Future is quite happy to plug away, regularly making good cases on a variety of issues and back them up, but several others feel the need to highlight how he's being picked on - my gut feeling is that he doesn't feel remotely "lambasted" any more than anyone else does when they go against the general grain. On the likes of the TM Cup opinion is fairly well divided in the county and this discussion is a reflection of that.



What this discussion has become is as much about the attitude of the team in general as much as it is about the Tommy Murphy, and in that regard the Magpie has made a good start in summing up some of the primary deficits in the team.

Outside of raw talent, the following spring to mind:

- Coaching
- Fitness
- Professional Respect
- Team Bonding
- Character
- Mentality

To that I would add tactical innovation before a game and strategic thinking during it both on the sideline and among some of the players, as well as a huge dearth in physical power.

Participating in and winning this tournament was an opportunity to work in these areas - most definitely a positive thing for Offaly football.

Without wanting to be perceived as "lambasting" anyone, I'd be inclined to disagree here. Fitness is worked on over the winter and spring, nothing that would be done in the summer would improve that. Anybody playing well in the Tommy Murphy Cup would not answer any questions about their ability to deliver in the white heat of championship, while Team Bonding wouldn't really work when the panel is about to disperse and kick lumps out of each other in the county championship and maybe only 70% of them would be back next year anyway.


To my mind, the first thing they could do for this competition is to make it voluntary, not compulsory. That way the only teams that would enter would be the teams that want to, thus raising the competitions's profile. If you're left with only four teams - so what? Antrim beat Kilkenny by nearly 40 points and beat London equally handy before edging out a Clare team that hadn't trained - they only played one decent game in the whole thing anyway. If you only have teams that want to take part in it, then at least managers know the games they get will be worthwhile. Perversely that could in turn boost participation.

[Doon Massive]

After watching the weekends games, its clear how far behind we are, in physical terms anyway. A lot of the teams on the up (say both Derry and Monaghan from the weekend) had plenty of big players, not afraid to mix it. Meath also, a complete set of forwards overs 6 foot.
Number 14 for Monaghan (Woods I think) was fairly big boned, but turned up all over the place and worked his socks off, so didn't seem to be lacking in fitness.
Looking at the current Offaly team, we don't have players like that.

On the flip side, there are smaller teams, which use fitness to their advantage. But again we seem to be lacking here.

Apparently, we are not allowed use steriods or angel dust , so fitness will have to be the next starting point I believe. Its a good base to work on, and hopefully we could finish out games stronger.

[azoffaly]

Gym work should be the order of the day from now until about December. Heavy gym work, like they were supposed to be doing last year, instead of going to the gym, swanning around, drinking water and chatting.

I find it incredibly frustrating that, in recent seasons, the likes of Sligo, Fermanagh, Westmeath, Monaghan, Laois etc etc have all had their moments in the sun, while we continue to flatter to deceive.

You won't ever convince me that those teams have better footballers than Offaly, but they were committed, organised, prepared and full of belief. We are none of those things at the moment. And each of those ingredients are within our control, so it is shameful that we find ourselves in the position we are.