What lessons can Offaly learn from Donegal?

[Fargo Boyle]

1996 Offaly exit the c'ship after a 3 pt loss to a poor Louth team, the years before exits were more painful 10 pt to Meath in '95, 2 pts to Wexford in '94 (when Wexford didn't play football) and 11 pts to Kildare in '93. Offaly football was in div 4, with no confidence of getting out of the basement anytime soon. The team over the years mentioned above had a serious pub culture, very often single digit numbers showed up for training while most of them headed to a pub instead.

Winter '96 a new manager was brought in and changed the whole mind set. New diet (newtron if memory server me right) a band on drink (this was not for diet reasons as most people believe) and a serious training program. All was laid out before the start and anyone that wasn't interested in signing up could walk, no pressure. Anyone that bought into it, stuck with it 100%. A new game plan was adopted, based on the strengths of the players available, and again all bought into it. Hammerings to all Div 4 teams were handed out on on the way to getting out of div 4 and a march onto a leinster c'ship.

6 of the team that started in that '93 hammering played in that Leinster final win, 10 from the team that lost to louth the year before started. By the end of '97 people were talking about Learning from Offaly and how to replicate what they had done.

Today the team is uncompetitive, unfit and have no game plan. Fix the fittness bit, get a game plan and you'll go a long way to being competitive. Whats competitive is all down to each persons opinion but batteling to get to a leinster final is what i would call competitive, once in a final anything can happen.

I don't know Emmet but hope he has a game plan, a fittness plan and players behind him that buy into it. If he does then better days are ahead, but 30-35 lads a lot of work over the next couple of years is needed mixed in with a lot of discipline. The footballers are in the county, look at the minor and U21 teams over the past 6-7 years.

Time to put the shoulders to the wheel, you get out what you put in.

Excellent post Muck Savage. If the setup is right the talent will flourish. Look at the money and structure the Tans put into cycling. They cleaned up at the Olympics and won their first tour de France ever this year. You don't need outstanding talent to be competitive

[Truth as i see it]

Its important to note that Donegals Jim McGuinness commands respect.......he's just one of those guys that does. This automatically means he'll get more out of his players and if anybody screws about he can get rid of them and there will be no revolt. We on the other hand have appointed a virtual nobody in the footballing world. The last unknown we appointed like this was Gerry Cooney and lads were walking off the training pitch when asked to do a few laps. Personally I think we needed to appoint Finbar Cullen.....as he is a guy who commands respect but whats done is done. Anyways last thing I'll say on this is that Emmett and the Offaly boys need to treat the upcoming Division 4 campaign as their All-Ireland. We need small progress as we attempt to get back on the horse that is intercounty football. Getting out of D4 would be a great stepping stone.

Christ Brack what don't you get about the fact that big names doesn't guarantee good results, if that was the case Fermanagh would have gotten out of Division 4 this year with Peter Canavan in charge, What about Jack O' Shea when he was in charge of Mayo in the early 90's, did he deliver Mayo's first All Ireland in 50 years? No, what about other codes like soccer, Roy Keane? spent a ton of Money, got Sunderland promoted to the premiership and promptly got them relegated again, Brian Robson? got Middlesbourgh relegated, was run out of Sheffield Utd for nearly getting them relegated and is now in the far east trying to sell football clubs?

Nobody outside of Dublin heard of Eugene Magee when he took over in '75 and guess what he did

God you and that other clown townman really do my head in some times, your the archetype of the county board, backwards and ignorant of Modern GAA who thinks they know better

I hope your not actually on it but i wouldn't be surprised either

This is 2012 not 1982

speaking of which Fargo, less of the Tan Label it makes you look bad

[Plain of the Herbs]

Seán Moran has some interesting points on Donegal, Jim McGuinness and man-management in today's Irish Times here
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/spo ... 79857.html#

As a basic indicator of the scale of the improvement, eight of Donegal’s team (nine if you count David Walsh who came on a replacement on both occasions) started the quarter-final of just three years previously when Cork annihilated them by 14 points. The figures for Cork are 12 and 14 respectively.

Given such similarities in the playing stock, consideration of this transformation begins and ends with McGuinness’s management. A predecessor and former team-mate Declan Bonner put this most succinctly when saying: “He came with a background in sports psychology and he had a plan.”

Almost 40 years ago Kevin Heffernan took over a seasoned Dublin team, low on achievement, and initially sold the message of intensifying fitness levels – the “you mightn’t be the best team but you’ll be the fittest” legend – but also outlined how that edge would benefit the team over time.

On the 20th anniversary of the 1974 All-Ireland, Dublin’s Brian Mullins wrote a piece in the Sunday Times, making the point that is key to all great managerial practice. According to Mullins, players began to experience and understand how the preparations were benefiting the team and how gradually the progress outlined and projected by Heffernan was coming to pass.

It’s the way that all player ‘buy-in’ is achieved – by creating faith and trust in the manager. McGuinness devised a system that would require high levels of fitness and conditioning and he set about securing those. If any Donegal players were sceptical at the start of the project, we may be sure it didn’t take until last Sunday for conviction to dawn.

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

Would all of ye sit back and look at all the answers ye have there!!

Its all that simple really isnt it?
The reality is this,

1) Focus: We are charged with splitting our resources between hurling and football, the hiring of all these specialists ye propose would be great but how do we pay for it, cost up some of these guys please.
Wexford, Westmeath, Laois, Galway, Tipp,Cork Antrim, are the only counties who try to compete on a dual front and Wexford, Westmeath, Tipp only recently have put similar focus on both.
Galway, Tipp, Cork are the successful ones, based on Population size

Now how can we overcome this?
A real focus must be put on the clubs by the County Board, on what? On the type of training program that needs to be done in order to bring underage players to the standard needed, and to bring adult clubs on to the standard needed.
We are sitting back over the winter and allowing soccer and rugby to "poach" many players. I dont object to any player playing thess, but lets have something in place to cater for the rest of the players. We have lots of work to do on speed and coordination over the winter months that will stand to young players, regardless of what is needed. And indeed we should be getting one night with our players to do some coaching and development work.
Also clubs need to increase the basic fitness of their adult players in order to have them ready to compete at the level that they will need to to push up the standards of our county players.

In short, it is so general, the stuff that ye are coming out with, County players not getting expenses on time and getting gear. I believe that these are very rare occurences, and I would also say that we need to be very wary of what expenses and mileage are paid out and maybe some of the delays are down to queries on some of these. Fair enough to query how a guy may claim mileage driving from Dublin to Gracefield if he lives in ??? Daingean for example and he is driving a company car??? (This is completely fictional by the way as Daingean had noone on the senior panel, no offence meant by the way).

I would be very annoyed over the treatment of the young hurling squads if what was posted in earlier threads was true.

County board wannabees are very rare on the ground and I would agree that some of them should be thrown as far out as they can be, but, and heres the choker,........ we get the leaders we deserve!! We put them forward from our clubs and sit back behind keyboards giving out.

Gt in there yourselves, (I listed my involvement at club level in earlier threads, none of ye have as far as I can see) , so to Bracknaghboy and the like, how dare ye criticise a bloke like McDonnell? He has a decent schools track record and seems to be very progressive. What right have we or any footballer in Offaly the right to look down and criticise him?
Ye talk about the lack of respect the CB have shown to the players, I know 4 or 5 players who have said to me that they feel embarassed to say they play with Offaly as they are the butt of such ridicule from clubmen and friends who tell them they are wasting their time, and the lack of support for the team is painful too. Even Baker spoke about it for the hurlers also.

So lads, get off yere holes and get out there and offer your services to your club and bring some of your ideas to the table.


Idea 1: Addressed to Emmet McDonnell. Call an series of open evenings with Clubs, (Minor & Adult), and outline what a typical programme would look like for a county player under your tutelage, and also what you would like to see general club players doing over the winter months.


Also the general type of football you would like to see played, and in general how you would coach this, effectively an Offaly style of play. As the papers were saying yesterday, we dont want mercenary club coaches trying to ape Donegals style of play without understanding it.

CB to support through Alan Mulhall and some of the players, maybe some past players to help pull together.
Set up a database online for clubs to download data and prepare booklets for players to tick off what they have done from the program, and how they can progress by sticking to it.

Namely, get out there and go to your club and look to get involved!!

[Daleamar]

First of all, I agree with most of what your saying Ahlethimoutwithit, but on you point about the players not getting mileage, your taking it out of context. that point was used to reiterate a different point, it wasnt just thrown out there. And I know for a fact that its not being exaggerated. On your point about they are querying the mileage? How long does it take to query that, and how do you? You ask the player, or a guy you know in his club if hes heard anything? 2 or 3 phone calls max? So if say you are querying 10 players, you sort out 5 in a half hour, the other 5 had no answer, and so on and so on. But it takes a couple months for the cheque to arrive in the players hand. Theres more to it then than checking up on players. And this isnt a problem for guys working, but you have to consider the guys away at college, it can mean a lot to get it regularly.

You dont think its feasable to get in a couple of professionals into the county to improve fitness and mentality etc? Yet you believe its feasible for Mc Donnell to travel around clubs outlining typical winter programmes. I cant see it, anyway, thats the John Leahys or Carina Carrolls of this worlds job, not the senior inter county managers. I could see where he might travel around to get some feedback from clubs about why theres no respect there for Offaly anymore, but I believe the answers he would get is "the stuff that ye are coming out with".

On the cost of having these backroom teams, we dont need 2 teams of them, one team would suffice, if every other county can have 'one', we should be able to afford 'one'. After all both hurling and football are gaelic games. We can skimp on on things for a while, we cannot afford to skimp on our county teams anymore.

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

Look at our accounts lads, we are currently losing money or just breaking even. So ye tell me how much ye would be willing to spend on a back room team, and outline where this money will come from? The county board stop their pensions, or going on those expensive fact finding missions around St Patricks day!!??
Fair enough, we should have a fitness trainer, and a guy to implement or monitor a weights programme. Surely their is enough nutrition expertise out there for a diet plan to be drawn up without too much expense.
Secondly, I would like the idea of Emmet McDonnell holding an open evening to outline his plan for football and how the clubs can help support this. Fair point about John Leahy & Carina Carroll- (however tis now the brief of Alan Mulhall, Carina nee Carroll now Haverty has left her role with the CB), however along with them, I would like to see him spending some time engaging with the clubs at adult level, but also have an input into underage, and have a more coordinated plan.

Finally, I would feel there must be genuine reasons why expenses are delayed and it may not all straightforward. In the cases you outline, especially College students, I would be concerned. But I would also have seen examples where guys were milking the system, and all it takes is a few to arouse suspicion. However I would expect any expenses to be queried fairly quickly, and strict rules laid down and adhered to.
Reality is though, at the moment we are breaking even, so if we are going to spend extra we need to take from somewhere. Close down the hurling team and concentrate on Camogie!! Joking lads!

[Daleamar]

These award ceremonies that are held every year to present the players of the years etc? Do those cost money or are they fund raisers? Also the celebration of past teams? Do they cost money or are they fund raising missions?

Also, county boards are spending money on "physios" that are not actual physios. If a fully qualified physiotherapist (university/college degree) was used instead then they would be more than qualifed to give instruction on diet and weight programmes etc. Especially because they understand why a player is prone to certain injuries rather than the fix of masseuses which is to rub rub and rub.

[clubman]

These award ceremonies that are held every year to present the players of the years etc? Do those cost money or are they fund raisers? Also the celebration of past teams? Do they cost money or are they fund raising missions?

Also, county boards are spending money on "physios" that are not actual physios. If a fully qualified physiotherapist (university/college degree) was used instead then they would be more than qualifed to give instruction on diet and weight programmes etc. Especially because they understand why a player is prone to certain injuries rather than the fix of masseuses which is to rub rub and rub.

agree with some of it ,we need to spend money on developing offaly not on past glory.its better not to compare with donegal because we are not alike,we have to build a team with what we have in offaly,big or small and coach them both phyical and most important mentally focus those players on the job ahead.its about giving them time to set things in place,where players bug into it,get rid off all those players that wont committ and go with a panel of 35 committed players and then things will improve in offaly. never mind donegal focus on our own ,most coaches know what is required and will be up to date on the preparation that is needed.on physios i was involved with a team years ago and so called qualified physiotherapist were usless,all the did was tell a player to take six weeks out even with small injuries.they never done anything complete waste of money.there are some good physiosw out there that have no university degree but have qualified and know more than they others.

[jimbob17]

Would all of ye sit back and look at all the answers ye have there!!

Its all that simple really isnt it?
The reality is this,

1) Focus: We are charged with splitting our resources between hurling and football, the hiring of all these specialists ye propose would be great but how do we pay for it, cost up some of these guys please.
Wexford, Westmeath, Laois, Galway, Tipp,Cork Antrim, are the only counties who try to compete on a dual front and Wexford, Westmeath, Tipp only recently have put similar focus on both.
Galway, Tipp, Cork are the successful ones, based on Population size

Now how can we overcome this?
A real focus must be put on the clubs by the County Board, on what? On the type of training program that needs to be done in order to bring underage players to the standard needed, and to bring adult clubs on to the standard needed.
We are sitting back over the winter and allowing soccer and rugby to "poach" many players. I dont object to any player playing thess, but lets have something in place to cater for the rest of the players. We have lots of work to do on speed and coordination over the winter months that will stand to young players, regardless of what is needed. And indeed we should be getting one night with our players to do some coaching and development work.
Also clubs need to increase the basic fitness of their adult players in order to have them ready to compete at the level that they will need to to push up the standards of our county players.

In short, it is so general, the stuff that ye are coming out with, County players not getting expenses on time and getting gear. I believe that these are very rare occurences, and I would also say that we need to be very wary of what expenses and mileage are paid out and maybe some of the delays are down to queries on some of these. Fair enough to query how a guy may claim mileage driving from Dublin to Gracefield if he lives in ??? Daingean for example and he is driving a company car??? (This is completely fictional by the way as Daingean had noone on the senior panel, no offence meant by the way).

I would be very annoyed over the treatment of the young hurling squads if what was posted in earlier threads was true.

County board wannabees are very rare on the ground and I would agree that some of them should be thrown as far out as they can be, but, and heres the choker,........ we get the leaders we deserve!! We put them forward from our clubs and sit back behind keyboards giving out.

Gt in there yourselves, (I listed my involvement at club level in earlier threads, none of ye have as far as I can see) , so to Bracknaghboy and the like, how dare ye criticise a bloke like McDonnell? He has a decent schools track record and seems to be very progressive. What right have we or any footballer in Offaly the right to look down and criticise him?
Ye talk about the lack of respect the CB have shown to the players, I know 4 or 5 players who have said to me that they feel embarassed to say they play with Offaly as they are the butt of such ridicule from clubmen and friends who tell them they are wasting their time, and the lack of support for the team is painful too. Even Baker spoke about it for the hurlers also.

So lads, get off yere holes and get out there and offer your services to your club and bring some of your ideas to the table.


Idea 1: Addressed to Emmet McDonnell. Call an series of open evenings with Clubs, (Minor & Adult), and outline what a typical programme would look like for a county player under your tutelage, and also what you would like to see general club players doing over the winter months.


Also the general type of football you would like to see played, and in general how you would coach this, effectively an Offaly style of play. As the papers were saying yesterday, we dont want mercenary club coaches trying to ape Donegals style of play without understanding it.

CB to support through Alan Mulhall and some of the players, maybe some past players to help pull together.
Set up a database online for clubs to download data and prepare booklets for players to tick off what they have done from the program, and how they can progress by sticking to it.

Namely, get out there and go to your club and look to get involved!!

I think that there a good few ideas there Ahlethimoutwithit re linking in with clubs and i think that most clubs would be very receptive to it but it is most unlikely that this would happen. However if the CB were progressively minded they would organise events such as this on an annual basis where the team backup staff might give talks on various aspects of their preparation of the benefit of the coaches at club level. the problem is you would find is that 1) the backup staff wouldnt really have much of a plan often enough and 2) the CB dont have people with such foresight.

While you suggest that we should be more involved with clubs and teams. I refute this suggestion entirely and think that we are most entitled to come on and offer an opinion without being involved presently. Besides i know that the majority on here have given plenty to their clubs over the years. You say that we dont reveal our involvement, well here is mine. I am currently still playing with my club at junior football and doing some coaching too at underage level with them. I have previously been involved in hurling at county minor/21 level and have played senior football for a club for many years. I have a real interest in doing things right and am friendly with plenty of College friends that would have played at county senior level so i know roughly what is involved in it. I am most frustrated with the way things run in OY with regard to county teams after hearing what other counties would have with regard to back up. When I hurled with OY minor and 21 teams over 10 years ago, the training and organisation was an absolute shambles. we got by on talent which had been generated on the back of enthusiasm for hurling through the successful teams of the 80s and 90's. So therefore i am very involved and couldnt be any more so at present...

I think you are right regarding these specialists who to be fair do cost some money but not much more than a journeyman physical trainer. I reckon you would get someone with a degree in sport science/PE (minimum requirement imo) for 120 euro per night maximum. At present Offaly will pay about 100 euro to somebody who trained a decent club team with no qualification or a lad who might have done a year's evening course in exercise and fitness and thinks they can train an inter-county team. This is a no brainer but the board will penny pinch and get the rewards they deserve. The simple thing is, they are not qualified enough nor do they have the knowledge as other counties, with whom we are trying to compete, bring in sport science people that push them forwards. For the sake of a few extra quid, they could get someone to do a good job over someone to do a bad job.

in fact i know that trainers (totally unqualified) have charged a fortune to Offaly (200 /session approx) in the past few years with no results because they might have a little reputation from being able to self promote themselves. I have trained under lads that went on to train county senior teams in Offaly and id have been thinking at the time, what the hell are we at with such lads involved as they were simply average club trainers. Over the years, ive found it easy to pick out bullsh$77ers and there are lads who can talk their way into such roles as a physical fitness "guru" and the CB sanction it. The co board should draw up minimum credentials that they want from such backroom people and if they dont have it they shouldnt be considered. simple as. This area is absolutely crucial as you would need someone who would have the physical training end of things but also someone who would have a knowledge of the game ie football/hurling in applying their science into training practices that involves the ball. Lets face it the trainer does most of the work during the year these days as the managers and selectors take a backward seat during training sessions generally. A good decent trainer would also be more than willing to draw up a programme for implementation through u 21 and minor squads for continuity of the production line, something that Kildare & Dublin have perfected recently. I know for certain that most underage development squads in Northern Ireland have strength and conditioning programmes implemented with their development squad teams as a friend of mine is involved up there in it. Is there ever a chance that this type of progressive thinking would see its way to Offaly...

Regarding nutrition, a decent professional could be picked up to do a monthly monitoring session for maybe 150 or 200 euro/ night, again not extortionate. Match analysis can also be analysed through various computer programmes for stats etc and this is again not extortionate. A decent coach/manager might cost a few bob but there are fellas out there that would do it for much cheaper than the journeymen blaggers that go around various counties in self promotion money making schemes (thinking Westmeath/ Carlow manager) with no real results or improvements of note. In this light, i think McDonnell might be a good choice.

A qualified weights sport science person should be able to do pitch sessions too so that could all be incorporated in to their pricing. Knowing lads and speaking to lads who would have studied sport science from outside the county, they are disbelieving when i tell of what and who have been involved in Offaly senior teams in a training capacity for countless years and this in fairness fuels my anger.

I have a nephew involved at underage county level now and i am aware of how they are treated at times and to be honest, the view coming from the county board wouldnt be a fully supportive one in my opinion. More one that says, "OK how much more do i have to give you before you will play for the county". There is no sense of pride in playing for the county any more. It has been eroded by the lack of success at senior over the past few years and young lads have no heroes in Offaly jerseys like i used to as a young lad. The CB are more concerned with spending as little as possible instead of investing in their future and spending small amounts of money in key areas to push things on and make young lads feel that playing for Offaly is important. Chicken and egg scenario. Invest and you might see some financial return. In the end, they make you feel like they are serving you by giving as little as possible rather than you are serving them by giving your best for the county. Success never happens in a vacuous dynamic like this.

So would I get involved in the CB?? I know a few of the co board people and to be honest, I wouldnt want a whole pile to do with them. Some are good-willing genuine people who simply dont know what is required but others for me are bitter me feiners who are only in it for what they can get out of it themselves and are not fully interested in doing things properly and id want no part in such political backstabbing. So ill happily do my little bit and come on here to vent my feeling / frustration till someone actually sees sense and implement some of the decent ideas (Love that idea on the data base/ downloadables) that surface on this board from time to time.....

Who is going to be the next chairman???

[True Red]

Taken from today's Irish times, an article about McGeeneys reappointment

A meeting of the county executive with the chairmen and secretaries of Kildare’s clubs last week revealed that €525,000 had been spent by the county board on its seven teams this year, with the under-21 hurlers still to play their All-Ireland ‘A’ final.

That is lower than the €600,000 that had been budgeted for and significantly less than the €750,000 spent in 2011.

Of that figure of €525,000 spent in 2012, €270,109 was spent on the seniors.

A litle above what Offaly are spending, the question has to be asked - what are they spending it on?

[Lone Shark]

Taken from today's Irish times, an article about McGeeneys reappointment

A meeting of the county executive with the chairmen and secretaries of Kildare’s clubs last week revealed that €525,000 had been spent by the county board on its seven teams this year, with the under-21 hurlers still to play their All-Ireland ‘A’ final.

That is lower than the €600,000 that had been budgeted for and significantly less than the €750,000 spent in 2011.

Of that figure of €525,000 spent in 2012, €270,109 was spent on the seniors.

A litle above what Offaly are spending, the question has to be asked - what are they spending it on?

I'm not trying to excuse the Offaly county board here, but those Kildare figures are a big misnomer. For a start, the players do a lot of fundraising themselves - which, you might argue, is admirable - but they hit up the same businesses that would normally sponsor the county board in some form. So when the county board tries to get money out of a local pub or hotel, they come back and say - but shur I've already given €2000 to Johnny McHalfback? Equally, there are other benefactors in the county who make direct contributions to pay for certain people within the set up.

Finally, I'd be somewhat skeptical of those numbers anyway. Those would be legitimate, mileage and vouched expenses. If anyone in the Kildare set up was getting more than that, and I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions on that one, then that would have to come from an "off the books" source.