What lessons can Offaly learn from Donegal?

[bracknaghboy]

BNM I think you are underestimating how far down the ladder we are. The aim for 2013 must be to get out of Division 4. To do that the lads are going to have to work very hard as these games will need to be won in heavy conditions in Feb and Mar next year. We don't need to look to potential All Ireland winning teams to know that hard work is going to be required. Personally I'd look to Longford and Wexford as good examples. I can't see the point in looking to complicated systems employed by a team that have fitness levels off the scale like Donegal.

[Lone Shark]

I don't think anyone's misunderstanding where we are at the moment. We are a division four county on merit, probably on a par with teams like Waterford and Carlow. Still ahead of London, but you couldn't say that there is any county within the island of Ireland that we'd be clear favourites to beat.

However surely we should still be aspiring to something? The question was not whether or not we should try to mimic Donegal from head to toe, the question is whether or not we have something to learn from them, and surely the answer must be yes. It makes a lot more sense to be learning from Donegal than learning from Kerry, where the secret seems to be churning out a string of incredibly natural footballers, or learning from Dublin, where the secret is to have fifty or a hundred full time coaches working in the county at a huge cost.

Yes their players are going to win All Stars, and deservedly so. But my point was not that these guys weren't well worthy of those accolades, it's that if I was talking to some of the players who played minor for Offaly either this year or last, players that I got to know very well, I'd be very quick to tell them that there is nothing that Mark McHugh has that they can't learn - and the same applies to Kavanagh, Bradley, McGlynn, Thompson, McLoone and most of the others. It would be damn hard work and it wouldn't come easily or quickly, but they could do it if they applied themselves correctly. On the other hand, could I say with an honest heart that they could train hard and some day they'd be able to be as good as Colm Cooper? In the vast, vast majority of cases, no. Because Cooper, aside from being fit, strong and conditioned, is a gifted player, the type who only comes along once in a generation.

Yes, we have to walk before we can run. Yes, we will have hurdles to cross that Donegal didn't - but equally, we have advantages of our own too, when we finally get around to using them. For example, the top clubs in the betting for the Donegal SFC this year (if it ever gets played) are St Eunans, Kilcar, Naomh Conaill, Glenswilly and St Michaels. If those five clubs played matches against Rhode, Edenderry, Clara, Tullamore and Gracefield, the Offaly teams would probably win at least three out of five.

[Kevin]

I don't think this is about employing complicated schemes at this stage.

I think its about getting commitment from every player on the panel to buy into the new system (whatever that might be) and do the heavy lifting required. There will be a lot of personal sacrifice involved. Some will not be willing to make the sacrifice and that is a decision like any other. We have a new manager. He will let everyone know what is required to be an Offaly footballer.

Certainly we are at a disadvantage in terms of resources, but that should in no way preclude us from having a team that can improve our standing and do themselves proud

One important thing to take from the 'Donegal Example' is that there is no need to necessarily wait a generation for dramatic change to take effect. Yes, it has to happen one step at a time and there is no magic involved. Many other counties will be fighting for a higher position too.

Winning an All Ireland may seem like something that is light years away, but there are plenty of other milestones along the we can use to gauge success and build ourselves up. Getting a committed group together and fighting our way out of Division 4 would be a great start.

[Bord na Mona man]

I should have made it clearer in the original post that I wasn't advocating a complete clone of everything Donegal do.
For example, last year Gerry Cooney tried the tactic of getting men behind the ball. The problem was the team didn't work hard enough in their tackling and were too unfit (or too lazy) to get forward quickly in support when we got a possession turnover.

However, there surely must be some inspiration to be drawn from a team that 2 or 3 years ago was disorganised, under motivated and indisciplined.
Any Offaly manager worth his salt should be trying his damndest to find out what the key change factors in Donegal were.
It was very little to do with talent. It was the mindset change!

Sport is always about is about learning from the example of others (maybe Offaly is exempt).
Multi-millonaire and major winning golfer Padraig Harrington gave a pep-talk to a certain club team in Dublin. The thrust of it was about changing from being the ultimate 2nd place man (choker) to being a winner.

I very much doubt it was shot down by the players with complaints like - Ah shure golf is different. Sure we're only amateurs. The ball in golf is smaller. Harrington has no one marking him when he putts.

[townman]

simple Donegal have the footballers offaly haven't so we will learn nothing from Donegal untill with get the talent in offaly

The learning ban strikes again!
So in the meantime we don't bother our bollixes trying to improve the setup that's already there.
We'll wait for 'talent' to just magic itself into existence and then try and then start learning about how to improve senior set up.

i don't think Donegal were ever as low as offaly are at the moment division 4 and not a good display in the championship for year's
yes you could learn from Donegal also longford, wexford, and laois for a finish to there year.

for that the players will have to put in the work and give 100 per cent in training and on the field of play which we have to agree on offaly
are not at the moment or haven't over the last few years well some have but not a panel.

its not as simple as that either, Donegal have some of the best footballeres in the country at the moment they were unlucky to lose an all ireland
under 21 final to Dublin two years ago, add in McFadden and afew more lads that have being around the block a few years Karol Lacey another
one they had something to work with.

Tommy Lyons came in to offaly in the late 90's people say offaly football was on its knees when he came but what people forget Lyons had
a good spread of footballers to work with getting them fit was half the job plus we had minor and under 21 winning teams to choose from.

Finbarr Cullen, the Grennans James and Sean, Peter Brady Vinny Claffey two of the best forwards in their day to pull on the offaly jersey
add in Young players like Roy and Barry Malone, Ronan Mooney, Ciran McManus , Cathal Daly, Colm Quinn, that football talent isn't in offaly
at the moment.

if we do happen to get a good football team together again with all giving 100 per cent then we might learn from the Donegals of this world
if not, we will stay in division 4 and only have memories of offaly football from the 60' 70's and 80's and late 90's

[Daleamar]

its not as simple as that either, Donegal have some of the best footballeres in the country at the moment they were unlucky to lose an all ireland
under 21 final to Dublin two years ago

Tommy Lyons came in to offaly in the late 90's people say offaly football was on its knees when he came but what people forget Lyons had
a good spread of footballers to work with getting them fit was half the job plus we had minor and under 21 winning teams to choose from.

Finbarr Cullen, the Grennans James and Sean, Peter Brady Vinny Claffey two of the best forwards in their day to pull on the offaly jersey
add in Young players like Roy and Barry Malone, Ronan Mooney, Ciran McManus , Cathal Daly, Colm Quinn, that football talent isn't in offaly
at the moment.
(

I cant understand why people come on this forum and reiterate what other people are writing, rather than furthering the debate... as my father always said, if you have nothing useful to say, say nothing.

can you please tell me townman? How did Donegal end up soem of the best footballers in the country, barring Michael Murphy and Karl Lacey, you would have said 3 years ago that they were average players. Mc Guinness was manager of the u21s for that final too I believe?... So it would be the Jim Mc Guinness factor that made the difference then? Or would it not?

Its not so long ago that tehy were saying that Niall Mc Namee and Tomo Deehan were the best inside 2 (in Leinster at least), when Offaly were playing 2 inside. What made them players great? If Tommy Lyons never came into Offaly would those players still be great? There is a question for you?

[townman]

its not as simple as that either, Donegal have some of the best footballeres in the country at the moment they were unlucky to lose an all ireland
under 21 final to Dublin two years ago

Tommy Lyons came in to offaly in the late 90's people say offaly football was on its knees when he came but what people forget Lyons had
a good spread of footballers to work with getting them fit was half the job plus we had minor and under 21 winning teams to choose from.

Finbarr Cullen, the Grennans James and Sean, Peter Brady Vinny Claffey two of the best forwards in their day to pull on the offaly jersey
add in Young players like Roy and Barry Malone, Ronan Mooney, Ciran McManus , Cathal Daly, Colm Quinn, that football talent isn't in offaly
at the moment.
(

I cant understand why people come on this forum and reiterate what other people are writing, rather than furthering the debate... as my father always said, if you have nothing useful to say, say nothing.

can you please tell me townman? How did Donegal end up soem of the best footballers in the country, barring Michael Murphy and Karl Lacey, you would have said 3 years ago that they were average players. Mc Guinness was manager of the u21s for that final too I believe?... So it would be the Jim Mc Guinness factor that made the difference then? Or would it not?

Its not so long ago that tehy were saying that Niall Mc Namee and Tomo Deehan were the best inside 2 (in Leinster at least), when Offaly were playing 2 inside. What made them players great? If Tommy Lyons never came into Offaly would those players still be great? There is a question for you?

who said Tomo Deehan and Mac were the best inside 2 in leinster, lads sitting on a bar stool, Tomo one good game again kildare in 2006
got to leinster final never to be seen again, i also went to portlaoise in 2006 Daleamar and watch the same two inside best fowards let
laois sh.te on them in portlaoise.

theres a good few players playing for Donegal before Jim McQuinness came on board yes i agree he has put Donegal up where they are today
but so to has the talent in the county. would Tomo and Niall Mac get on that Donegal team maybe Mac if he got abit of fire into him

[Daleamar]

who said Tomo Deehan and Mac were the best inside 2 in leinster, lads sitting on a bar stool, Tomo one good game again kildare in 2006
got to leinster final never to be seen again, i also went to portlaoise in 2006 Daleamar and watch the same two inside best fowards let
laois sh.te on them in portlaoise.

theres a good few players playing for Donegal before Jim McQuinness came on board yes i agree he has put Donegal up where they are today
but so to has the talent in the county. would Tomo and Niall Mac get on that Donegal team maybe Mac if he got abit of fire into him

It was Pat Spillane and co who said they were one of the best partnerships around.

What about the question of would all those Offaly legends been as good if Tommy Lyons never appeared?

My point is that you cannot write-off the situation simply because you dont think our players are good enough, make them good enough.... whats the difference between a skill and a talent?... You learn a skill and are born with talent!

McNamee if he got a bit of fire into him?? Does that not contradict your whole argument? All you need is a bit of motivation and we could have one great player, as you reckon, and 14 solid players, would that not make us competitive?

[Truth as i see it]

who said Tomo Deehan and Mac were the best inside 2 in leinster, lads sitting on a bar stool, Tomo one good game again kildare in 2006
got to leinster final never to be seen again, i also went to portlaoise in 2006 Daleamar and watch the same two inside best fowards let
laois sh.te on them in portlaoise.

theres a good few players playing for Donegal before Jim McQuinness came on board yes i agree he has put Donegal up where they are today
but so to has the talent in the county. would Tomo and Niall Mac get on that Donegal team maybe Mac if he got abit of fire into him

It was Pat Spillane and co who said they were one of the best partnerships around.

What about the question of would all those Offaly legends been as good if Tommy Lyons never appeared?

My point is that you cannot write-off the situation simply because you dont think our players are good enough, make them good enough.... whats the difference between a skill and a talent?... You learn a skill and are born with talent!

McNamee if he got a bit of fire into him?? Does that not contradict your whole argument? All you need is a bit of motivation and we could have one great player, as you reckon, and 14 solid players, would that not make us competitive?

Hope its all right if i jump in here, i know its a private argument and all but hey this is a forum I think your 100% correct Daleamar, i'm sorry but i don't buy this argument that we simply have to wait for good players to come along, i don't believe in going bad group bad group bad group good group up along the age grades and i'll tell you why.

To use the example of the Boxing high Performance unit i was reading an article in the paper and in it the compared the medal wins at senior boxing championships at Irish, European and World level both before and after the high performance programme was set up

Now i don't have the statistics with me but to put an estimate on it pre High performance we brought home maybe one old medal every four years with maybe 2 silvers and 3 or 4 bronze medals thrown in

After the high performance unit was brought in we can now expect at least an average of three boxers to come home from EVERY international tournament with a gold medal and a silver as the bear minimum

Again i don't have the exact statistics on me to back this up but i'd be pretty sure i'm close to the numbers

Now of course there was a lot of money pumped into this system, it would be foolish to say otherwise but for me the one thing that made the most difference was the upgrading of coaching knowledge that made this situation possible

It wasn't just that they (the Irish Amateur Boxing Association) were getting the best equipment or that they were able to upgrade their gyms, in fact i can recall Kenny Egan saying that when they traveled away for tournaments, they were certainly not staying in five star hotels.

There was a sports programme on tv last year about one of the Irish squads tournaments which turned out to be particularly successful one which i believe was in either Poland or Georgia i cant recall and on this occasion there was a lack of Gym facilities in the area so they used the foyer by the elevators to do their sparring and shadow boxing and they still came away with a large medal haul

The point is it was the emphasis that they put on the technical aspects of coaching rather than the equipment that allowed us to become more competitive at international level rather than just the idea that we just happen to be lucky to have talented boxers

Would these guys have been a success without the high performance unit, maybe some of them would but we certainly wouldn't be competitive as we are now

Look at the coverage that the coaches are getting over the fact that they are not being offered new deals, there is a realization there that if the IABA loose these coaches, the standard will drop

What Donegal have done is not just change their structures but most importantly of all they changed their mindset

I was lucky enough to get to talk to Pat Spillane and Tommy Carr when they were in town (Athlone) when the GAA Roadshow came to town

I got to chatting to the lads and we were talking about Westmeath football and both of them made the point that counties like Westmeath have no lack of talent but what they do have is a lack of believe and an unwillingness to put in the hard work to progress the county

Tommy Carr is over the Minors here in Westmeath and he made the point that before their Leinster Semi final qualifier game against Louth (which they lost by the way) half the team had already made their holiday plans an were not available for the game

They didn't blame the clubs but the county board which they said did not want to know about fixing the problems as there wasn't enough believe at the top echelons that they could improve the county going forward

The whole point I'm trying to make is that yes Talent plays a part, unquestionably you can't account for talents like a Niall Mcnamee or a Dessie Dolan or a Colm Couper but by that same token if you expect to get good results from a bad setup you may as well be using a pee shooter to sink a battle ship

Emmet Mcdonnell made a good point last week in that interview he gave to the Tullamore tribune

"if you do what you always did you will get what you always got"

Here's another saying

"The harder you work the luckier you get"

[Muck Savage]

1996 Offaly exit the c'ship after a 3 pt loss to a poor Louth team, the years before exits were more painful 10 pt to Meath in '95, 2 pts to Wexford in '94 (when Wexford didn't play football) and 11 pts to Kildare in '93. Offaly football was in div 4, with no confidence of getting out of the basement anytime soon. The team over the years mentioned above had a serious pub culture, very often single digit numbers showed up for training while most of them headed to a pub instead.

Winter '96 a new manager was brought in and changed the whole mind set. New diet (newtron if memory server me right) a band on drink (this was not for diet reasons as most people believe) and a serious training program. All was laid out before the start and anyone that wasn't interested in signing up could walk, no pressure. Anyone that bought into it, stuck with it 100%. A new game plan was adopted, based on the strengths of the players available, and again all bought into it. Hammerings to all Div 4 teams were handed out on on the way to getting out of div 4 and a march onto a leinster c'ship.

6 of the team that started in that '93 hammering played in that Leinster final win, 10 from the team that lost to louth the year before started. By the end of '97 people were talking about Learning from Offaly and how to replicate what they had done.

Today the team is uncompetitive, unfit and have no game plan. Fix the fittness bit, get a game plan and you'll go a long way to being competitive. Whats competitive is all down to each persons opinion but batteling to get to a leinster final is what i would call competitive, once in a final anything can happen.

I don't know Emmet but hope he has a game plan, a fittness plan and players behind him that buy into it. If he does then better days are ahead, but 30-35 lads a lot of work over the next couple of years is needed mixed in with a lot of discipline. The footballers are in the county, look at the minor and U21 teams over the past 6-7 years.

Time to put the shoulders to the wheel, you get out what you put in.

[True Red]

Just on the finance issue....during the olympics coverage on RTE the analyst Mick Dowling stated that €6 million had been pumped into the High Performance Unit for the boxers since it was set up. Not sure on the exact year it was set up - maybe 2 years before the Beijing Olympics in 2008?

By comparative standards that isnt a huge outlay and they have a got a highly respectable medal haul at the last 2 Olympics, plus whatever medals have been won at tournament, European and World meets.

As far as i am aware the outlay for both hurling and football teams for the last 6-8 years has been in or around 500k? Would i be right in saying that? That equates to 250k per team. Nowhere near the 1 million that the Dubs, Cork and Kerry spend on their team but still its a good chunk of change.

And with the exception of 2006, the football results have been utterly abysmal. If a quantitive Value for Money analysis was carried out, there would be more than one economist/business analyst calling for the plug to be pulled a long time ago.

[Daleamar]

Hope its all right if i jump in here, i know its a private argument and all but hey this is a forum

Work away, it was never private!

[jimbob17]

Agree Truth as I see it. Kenny Egan said at the olympics that the boxing squad brought home a total of about something like 29 medals from major championships in the ten years before the high performance unit was put in place, and since its inception have racked up something like over 100 medals (112 if i remember correctly in approx 10 years) from major championsships (World European and Olympic). A young man called Gary Keegan changed the whole thing by simply doing things correctly. Since, he was head hunted by the English Institute of Sport for a role over there. He got the best technical coaches around a good bunch of young boxers and recruited a few coaches from outside ireland including Zaur Antia strategically so they could get access to the best sparring partners in Easter Europe (Kazakstan and Georgia) in camps. They generally live in a no frills house in dublin when in camp. Like the hotels they stay in, this doesnt matter. However, Keegan strategically also recruited some of the top people in the country to work behind the scenes in a support team and this was the key to it all. You dont hear much about the performance manager, performance analysis coach, nutritionist, strength and conditioning coach and sport psychologist who are all involved in a major way to the teams success. These are professional performance science people all accredited by the irish institute of sport who do their jobs to get the most out of the athletes. Interestingly, this expertise is now being pushed in at lower levels also and down into U 18 international boxing teams.

Accordingly, Their mindset has changed from hoping to win to expecting to win. This comes simply from doing things correctly, knowing their coaching teams are top notch and bloody hard work which makes them fully confident they can win. Now equating this with Offaly GAA, How have the county board strategically put people in place to get the most out of their athletes? To improve them physically, technically, tactically and mentally from minor through to senior? They simply have not. Therein lies the problem. Bear in mind that the top counties against whom we wish to compete have employed these professional people (some of them the same people that worked with the Irish Olympic team) to work with their teams on the performance science end of things. We havent matched it and we have the results to show. Prime example: Wexford v Offaly in 2011 football championship in Tullamore. It was disgraceful! Hammered out the gate by a tactically better, technically better and physically better Wexford team.

Dublin hurlers are a prime example of a team who have embraced such a concept in recent times and see their results improve. ditto Longford football who are now streets ahead of Offaly. Until Offaly move with the times, we will be no where near the top in Leinster let alone Ireland. Donegal have moved with the times and see their results. Drastic improvements. There are countless examples. Where were Kildare in 07 before McGeeney and look what they have done!!

To say there is no talent is absolutely rubbish, given we have played in 3/4 minor leinster finals and a 21 final in the last 7 years. Anton Sullivan, Graham Guilfoyle, Bernard Allen, Noel Graham, young McPadden and Rigney from Rhode, Sean Pender, Derek Kelly and John Maloney are all players with buckets of talent that has yet to be fully realised and might not be if things are not done correctly. All these players with loads of potential have not been harvested fully yet and might never be.

What have Wexford or Longford done in underage outside of the 1 21 and 1 minor respectively (Longford beating us after we hockeyed them in Tullamore). Nothing!! And their competitive and relatively successful senior teams now are not built around them lads as there are only 3/4 on the panel of each squad. The simple thing is that unlike Longford and Wexford, Offaly simply have not put any structures in place to rectify the shortcomings and are now paying the price!! This has happened previously too. Niall McNamee, Thos Deehan, James Coughlan, Nigel Grennan, Joe Quinn, Thos Coughlan were all guys with serious potential 5 years ago and only Niall Mac is still playing when they should all be in their prime at county level. This is endemic of the pervading culture of not doing things right. It will be the same in five years time with the likes of the aforementioned (Anton etc) and in ten years time when the present 16 year olds are 26. We will be saying the same thing if the status quo is maintained. There is no reason why Offaly wouldnt be up there with the 3 big guns in Leinster (Dublin Meath and Kildare). In fact i fully believe we would be if we were professional enough in how we carry out our preparation. Sadly we are not and even players get pi**ed with the board for not paying expenses on time. A simple thing that can and should be sorted supporting the players rather than driving a wedge between the two. Sure its no wonder so many players walk out of the panel as they are often not treated with respect. That simply manifests itself in the players not respecting the jersey back as they equate what it represents with negativity in many cases.

We can talk all we like about players being committed but i guarantee that if players see that things are being conducted properly by people of the right calibre who are respected in their field, they will listen and buy in believing in a chance of success. If not, players will see through it, abandon ship mentally and just go through the motions when representing the county like what has happened for the last few years.

McGuiness was afforded the opportunity of equipping his team with the best of back up too and signs on, they have achieved. The same can be said about the great tyrone and Armagh teams of the early noughties and the kerry team of the mid and late noughties. Despite their wealth of talent, they were supported by the best of backroom people. No matter how good a manager is, He is only as good as the people around him allow him to be!! We are mugs if we think that a lad who was a bit of a local legend and is able to run them hard is good enough to train an inter county team but that is what the county board will support both in hurling and football. It has gone way too serious now and mediocre counties are leaving us in their wake.

Of course we can learn something from the Donegal team, and more importantly, the county board should and can. If not, i think the executive need to step aside and leave their jobs to more knowledgeable people as what they have presided over in the last 5 years has been nothing short of horrendous. Not even being competitive in Leinster in football while the hurlers are also struggling though not as bad. No strategic planning, no know how, half guessing their way around everything and playing chance with the future of our teams due to downright ignorance of what it takes to be successful in these times.

[bracknaghboy]

Its important to note that Donegals Jim McGuinness commands respect.......he's just one of those guys that does. This automatically means he'll get more out of his players and if anybody screws about he can get rid of them and there will be no revolt. We on the other hand have appointed a virtual nobody in the footballing world. The last unknown we appointed like this was Gerry Cooney and lads were walking off the training pitch when asked to do a few laps. Personally I think we needed to appoint Finbar Cullen.....as he is a guy who commands respect but whats done is done. Anyways last thing I'll say on this is that Emmett and the Offaly boys need to treat the upcoming Division 4 campaign as their All-Ireland. We need small progress as we attempt to get back on the horse that is intercounty football. Getting out of D4 would be a great stepping stone.

[Daleamar]

Its important to note that Donegals Jim McGuinness commands respect.......he's just one of those guys that does. This automatically means he'll get more out of his players and if anybody screws about he can get rid of them and there will be no revolt. We on the other hand have appointed a virtual nobody in the footballing world. The last unknown we appointed like this was Gerry Cooney and lads were walking off the training pitch when asked to do a few laps. Personally I think we needed to appoint Finbar Cullen.....as he is a guy who commands respect but whats done is done. Anyways last thing I'll say on this is that Emmett and the Offaly boys need to treat the upcoming Division 4 campaign as their All-Ireland. We need small progress as we attempt to get back on the horse that is intercounty football. Getting out of D4 would be a great stepping stone.

I just hope you dont have the ear of any potential young county players or indeed club players with that attitude.

On the point of walking off the pitch when asked to do a few laps, a bad junior teams wouldnt do that, so I assume there was more to it. If indeed the county team was still doing laps with all the research out there that says it has no real benefit then they were always doomed to fail.