Proposed change to age grades at both county and club level

[Hyper]

There is an ongoing working group investigating the age grades for underage at both county and club level. County is expected to stay at 17 and 20, the big issue is what the clubs are going to do.
There is going to be a vote on this at the county board meeting tonight. What are the people's views on this out there?

[kingscounty]

Leave as it is county level, it has served us well over the last 3-4 years in both codes, club level probably needs probing as to whether clubs have enough numbers if it chooses one over the other.

[uibhfhaili72]

What was the outcome if the meeting last night ?

[Hyper]

I believe there wasn't even a vote, leaving as is

[FJB]

I'm glad we are staying as is. It's the best of a bad set of choices.

Westmeath apparently are voting to raise minor age to under 18 and decouple minor from adult meaning you will have 18 and 19 year olds at the start of a year who have never played adult hurling or football.

[Onionbag]

I think the u 18 is the way we should go too

[jimbob17]

I would agree that there should be U18 club competition and even cut off U18's playing adult club level bar U20 or U21.

The reason that the U17 came in was to cut U17s from adult level as they knew they would get that over the line. Moving co minor to U17 was hugely helpful for leaving certs from what I am told and this has helped in this way. However, at club level, the last meaningful underage competition is at U17 now which is far too young. I think they should go U14, U16 and U18 at club level with no U18s playing adult. Let there be blitz days of 15 a side for U13's like they do at county level as a bridge from go games with maybe a cup also at end of year. For lads who are good enough at U13, they can play league and championship at u14 too.

If you think back, how many lads at U18 were really ready for adult level at U18? We have put the last proper age grade at U17 which I think was too drastic a measure and loads of lads are now lost between U17 and adult level now as a result.

We should also go back to an U21 at club level on a knockout basis and leave the co levels at U17 and U20 with lads not allowed to play co senior until they are over 20. Lots of lads only develop physical strength at 20 or 21 and cutting proper underage competition at U17 is doing more harm than good.

[FJB]

I would agree that there should be U18 club competition and even cut off U18's playing adult club level bar U20 or U21.

Most small clubs are depending on a few 18 year olds coming though each year to bolster their numbers at adult level. If you tell a lad turning 18 in January/February in a particular year, no, sorry you can't play adult until you're 19, he'll be off playing something else or maybe give it up altogether.

And don't get me started about the number of games offered at minor level.

[private joker]

I see offaly gaa looking to change up the go games. Asking clubs who are joined up to break up at u8 to u10 and play for their own clubs. Like st manchins fielding as individual clubs rather than under one name as several clubs. Kevin corrigan wrote an article on it.

[feirmeoir]

I saw that article, and I think the county board's logic is by say splitting up amalgamations they would get greater participation in each club, so I think the idea would be that in say for example (Erin Rovers I think were mentioned in the article ), if there were 8 lads at under 10 from Erin Rovers, they they would put in a team at u10 on their own, they wouldn't merge with Doon. The idea is that those lads would identify with their own club and remain playing with Erin Rover to adult level and this across all the clubs in Offaly would mean greater retention level and more young lads playing at underage level through their teenage years and in fairness, I would see this as a postive thing.

But there's one thing I don't understand, why aren't the County Board focusing also on the bigger clubs and seeking to get more players playing in Tullamore, Edenderry, Birr and so on. If the County Board expect all lads from Pullough to play at u8 level, why don't they put measures in place that would get all younsters at u8 from Tullamore to play, if there are 8 lads from a country area, surely there would be a couple of hundred lads at that age from Tullamore, but the County Board seem to be glossing over that. There's no indication that they are trying to harness all lads from the Tullamore area. Surely it would be worth looking at carving Tullamore into different areas to maximise participation at Go Game level.

It seems to be a bit unfair for the County Board to be looking at smaller clubs only without looking at the bigger clubs. I would guess that there is way more talent being lost in the bigger type clubs than there are in the smaller clubs, as all the smaller clubs will try to maximise numbers at underage where possible.

Anyone else any views?

[Plain of the Herbs]

Having read the report on the exchange at the County Board meeting, I got the impression that is what the board are at, focussing on the larger clubs. Cappincur being the case in point. It beggars belief that Cappincur can claim not to have numbers at Go Games level, when Ballinamere-Durrow (to pick a club with a similar population profile) have a few teams in that age group. One is as much a suburb of Tullamore as the other.

Something else that doesn't make sense is that Gracefield didn't have a team at U13 football this year, And then rocked up to OCP for the recent U12 football competition with around 20 players.

As for Erin Rovers, my understanding is that Erin Rovers and Doon would field club teams at Go Games level (which are smaller sized games), but would field a parish team at U13, U15 and Minor, which are 13 or 15 a side.

But there's one thing I don't understand, why aren't the County Board focusing also on the bigger clubs and seeking to get more players playing in Tullamore, Edenderry, Birr and so on. If the County Board expect all lads from Pullough to play at u8 level, why don't they put measures in place that would get all younsters at u8 from Tullamore to play, if there are 8 lads from a country area, surely there would be a couple of hundred lads at that age from Tullamore, but the County Board seem to be glossing over that. There's no indication that they are trying to harness all lads from the Tullamore area. Surely it would be worth looking at carving Tullamore into different areas to maximise participation at Go Game level.

It seems to be a bit unfair for the County Board to be looking at smaller clubs only without looking at the bigger clubs. I would guess that there is way more talent being lost in the bigger type clubs than there are in the smaller clubs, as all the smaller clubs will try to maximise numbers at underage where possible.

Anyone else any views?

[jimbob17]

I saw that article, and I think the county board's logic is by say splitting up amalgamations they would get greater participation in each club, so I think the idea would be that in say for example (Erin Rovers I think were mentioned in the article ), if there were 8 lads at under 10 from Erin Rovers, they they would put in a team at u10 on their own, they wouldn't merge with Doon. The idea is that those lads would identify with their own club and remain playing with Erin Rover to adult level and this across all the clubs in Offaly would mean greater retention level and more young lads playing at underage level through their teenage years and in fairness, I would see this as a postive thing.

But there's one thing I don't understand, why aren't the County Board focusing also on the bigger clubs and seeking to get more players playing in Tullamore, Edenderry, Birr and so on. If the County Board expect all lads from Pullough to play at u8 level, why don't they put measures in place that would get all younsters at u8 from Tullamore to play, if there are 8 lads from a country area, surely there would be a couple of hundred lads at that age from Tullamore, but the County Board seem to be glossing over that. There's no indication that they are trying to harness all lads from the Tullamore area. Surely it would be worth looking at carving Tullamore into different areas to maximise participation at Go Game level.

It seems to be a bit unfair for the County Board to be looking at smaller clubs only without looking at the bigger clubs. I would guess that there is way more talent being lost in the bigger type clubs than there are in the smaller clubs, as all the smaller clubs will try to maximise numbers at underage where possible.

Anyone else any views?

Think this is being looked at a*seways by some people to be honest. How clubs cannot see the benefits of minding their own and getting as many as they can through is beyond me. Daingean have seen the light and their work with their mini maroons over last 8 or more years or so is starting to pay dividends for them with higher volumes getting through to adult teams.

If it means getting more kids playing, it is the right thing to do no matter where they are from. I was told there was a strong disagreement in Manchans some years ago over the concept of all pulling together at underage to win some A titles with net result of some talented players leaving to play for clubs in Westmeath. They never won that coveted A championship but look what has happened to the clubs. Each will only have 3 - 5 at each grade getting any meaningful game time at underage championship levels and other lads disengage then from an early age and dont develop. In my opinion, the St Manchans adult clubs are currently paying a significant price for that. If they did it in smaller clusters to get more through Go Games up to U12 or U13 level, then there is only 4 years or so for them to be eligible to come through for their home adult club again, where they will have a degree of connection and loyalty already in the bank. It's a no brainer to do it in smaller clusters as far as I can see.

One man that was involved with St Manchans said to me before that many young lads didnt have a very strong connection with Manchans in a way that they might have done staying in smaller clusters with Primary school friends, and then often disengage at very young age with huge cost to the Tubber Ballycumber Doon and Erin Rovers clubs respectively. I think that even if it meant some were playing at B level, they would be better served by going back to 'Ballycumber Tubber' and DER Gaels as they once were. If it is the case at a particular age then when between the four clubs, numbers are very low to such a degree that they cannot field, then in that instance it may be good to join forces as St Manchans but only for that particular age group.

On the other major amalgamations in St Vincents and Na Fianna, I think that the adult clubs involved both of these would be way better off to split in two where numbers are particularly high - especially in football where you probably have higher volume than in hurling. For example, Na Fianna have large numbers from schools in Ballinagar and Killeigh particularly, but also in Geashill, Cloneygowan and possibly another smaller country school im not aware of while some eligible may also go to primary school in Portarlington, Tullamore or Kilcavan, such is the size of the parish. When you get that volume, none really need to be minded and coaxed along like they might do in the likes of for example Croghan - who tend to max out on the talent at their disposal - emphasised by fact that Clodiagh Gaels are finished in Junior A and Raheen are in Intermediate relegation while St Brigids Croghan are in the Intermediate final.

The point is also relevant in Tullamore and in best interest of Offaly GAA, there should be more made of Tullamore. There is probably a market for a second club in Tullamore even though they could rightly argue they are closely surrounded by Durrow, Ballinamere, Cappincur, Clodiagh Gaels and Shamrocks. It is a fair argument but their numbers are still huge and they should have two teams at every age grade in football and at times in hurling, particularly in U13 and U15, which I believe they now do.

St Vincents are extremely strong in the Go Games levels of football but by the time they get up the years, they tend not to be holding on to so many players for some reason. Would likes of Daingean and Kilclonfert be better off banding together for the purpose of Go Games and Cappincur Ballycommon doing likewise from perspective of bringing as many as they can through for their respective clubs like what is being suggested for St Manchans.

Not so sure how well a similar suggestion might work for Broughans as I am not fully sure how they are regarding numbers in comparison. Either way, the concept of giving as many a chance for as long as possible should be the way forward, and whatever it takes to do that should be the route that people within those clubs should be looking to do and they should not need to be told by the Co board to do so!

[ah lethimoutwithit]

The point is also relevant in Tullamore and in best interest of Offaly GAA, there should be more made of Tullamore. There is probably a market for a second club in Tullamore even though they could rightly argue they are closely surrounded by Durrow, Ballinamere, Cappincur, Clodiagh Gaels and Shamrocks. It is a fair argument but their numbers are still huge and they should have two teams at every age grade in football and at times in hurling, particularly in U13 and U15, which I believe they now do.

St Vincents are extremely strong in the Go Games levels of football but by the time they get up the years, they tend not to be holding on to so many players for some reason. Would likes of Daingean and Kilclonfert be better off banding together for the purpose of Go Games and Cappincur Ballycommon doing likewise from perspective of bringing as many as they can through for their respective clubs like what is being suggested for St Manchans.

Not so sure how well a similar suggestion might work for Broughans as I am not fully sure how they are regarding numbers in comparison. Either way, the concept of giving as many a chance for as long as possible should be the way forward, and whatever it takes to do that should be the route that people within those clubs should be looking to do and they should not need to be told by the Co board to do so!

I have a real issue with this having served my time with underage set ups over the years.

1. St Vincents had achieved little by way of A championship success until they won the 3 U21s back to back, and U13 last year was their first A championship I think and they are in the U13 final for the third year in a row. U15s have done well and minors are competing well in recent years. They committ to the Go Games philosophy and all kids are encouraged and are looked after.
However, there is an issue with the way the County Board introduced the Shane Lowry leagues last Christmas, (as an avenue to pocket a wad of cash). This meant the disbandment of U11 Go Games, and parachuted a large group of players together.
St Vincents have really tried to improve their coaching, encourage S&C and winter programs for all ages and are driving participation in development squads and county minor squads for the last number of years.
Bottom line is Cappincur, Ballycommon and now Daingean are all pushing to higher levels than last 20 years.

Is everything perfect, NO.
There is an avenue for the suggestion by the county board at U8 and U10, but I think they should have left all at U7/9/11/13/15/17 and introduce a hybrid approach with club window and parish window up to U11. And also to allow clubs to put out U12 league competition giving them slots in the calendar.

Stronger players have flourished and there may be work done on the weaker end of things.
St Manchans and St Broughans, Na Fianna are probably in the same boat.

Daingean underage have made soundings about going out on their own , and watch this space, many parents are happy to see their child doing well in a small pond , but the development takes place when the kids from each club challenge themselves in the Parish set up.
All Parish set ups should have U11/U12 teams and players should play those age groups, with U13 A and C teams in the championship. That would provide plenty of football for all. If this U8 & U10 approach happens it should not develop beyond 10/11. Otherwise there will be mayhem with kids, coaches not familiar with each other and lots of long faces when the "Jim Gavin" from Club A realises he didn't get the managers gig and worse again, Little Jimmy is only good enough for the second team...and FFS he had the lads in the gym from the time they were 7????

Bottom line, encouraging greater numbers of players playing is great, but if nothing changes in Tullamore, Edenderry, Ferbane, Clara,Birr and Kilcormac in producing more teams and county standrad players, we won't improve the overall standard.
2 years ago Ballinagar had 3 starters on the OY U20 team, they were close to making an Intermediate semi final, Raheen beaten in last 2 Intermediate finals. Where did those players come from?
These amalgamations have got their set ups in order, and this dilution at U8 and 10 can have a big impact in terms of coaching. Clubs will struggle to get the personnel involved.

It is worth trying, but those clubs who disregard the role the parish underage has had on producing real players need to be careful not to through the baby out with the bathwater.

I am saying that give it a go, but the time may be right to examine how best to do this to ensure that players are not lost because they are part of Mickey mouse set ups at u13 level and the better lads head off to play other sports.

One final point is that there will continue to be a big drop off as many kids havn't been given the fundamental movement skills by parent s who have allowed them to eat what they wish and armed them with smart phones and all sorts of tech gadgets that discourage the outdoor time. And this is the big area that PARENTS need to address if participation in sport is to develop.
there is more drop off as the better GAA players are the better rugby, soccer, runners, golfers etc and have more opportunities than ever.

Also there is little consideration for hard pressed ladies clubs, the GAA says that the girls can play Boys Go Games and fill the fields on a Saturday morning, so now they have to choose, and/or pay membership of 2 clubs to enable the boys club field on their own. Parents will be expected to bring girls training up to 3 times a week, and the number of girls playing with the ladies clubs may fall as due to insurance reasons their membership can often be up to €40/€50 . Again this may be an unintended consequence, and in time may be addressed. Longer term it may grow girls participation as on the other hand they can benefit from playing in the GAA Go Games.

But a lot of issues to ponder, and POTH, very hard to understand the comparison with Cappincur and B/D? Ballinamere and Durrow with 2 National schools, Cappincur kids are in Tull, Ballgar, and have had well highlighted issues with County Board over the loss of players from the area to these catchment areas, particularly Tullamore. Cappincur may drive some numbers on the abck of this, but they have tried this in the past and hopefully they can kepp going but there are a huge number of house in their area that are a stones throw from Whitehall and I doubt many of them are registerd to Cappincur.

Anyway let the "fun" or the "Go Games" begin!

[joe bloggs]

A couple of great points there in the last post.
The change of grades from u7, u9, u11, u13 to u8, u10, u12, u13 was baffling. The crossover at u12/13 is too much for most clubs.

The other point about the girls being thrown in to make up the numbers is correct too. The girls have their own teams mostly, is it ecpected they will abandon their teams to plug the gaps on the boys teams.

[del]

There’s a perception that is been pushed by the so called big urban clubs when in fact this has little to do with them and dosent concern them. But to me it looks like a no brainer . The amalgamations have lost sight of what they are about. It’s not about winning championships. It’s about producing as many players as possible to feed into the clubs involved . On the surface it may look like St Vincent’s are doing things right
But look at their minor team this year. There is 5 under 15s starting so therefore only 10 minors from that team are to feed 4 adult clubs of those 10 5 are underage again next year so then there’s 5 players to feed 4 clubs . I know for a fact they have lost players because of this .
The theory that there needs to be another club formed in Tullamore is all well and good but that has to be organic thing and it takes a load of volunteers facilities etc . In my estate alone in Tullamore I see kids with Na Fianna tops on Shamrocks tops on St Vincent’s tops on even beside me there’s 2 boys who played with S t Manchans and they have lived here all there lives obviously Balinamere/Durrow have a lot of kids from Tullamore playing with them . There may be various reasons why these kids play with these clubs and Tullamore have never went after them and have taken the attitude if they don’t want to play with Tullamore so be it and haven’t objected as long as kids are playing we have that luxury as our numbers are big unlike a neighbouring club.
This recommendation has come from someone outside the county who has looked at our numbers looked at our population and this is his recommendation . The county secretary seems to be getting the brunt of it as he is from an urban club but to be fair to him he has the county’s interests first and wants to see numbers maximised is these smaller rural clubs.
It shouldn’t be a total disbandment of these amalgamations and not a one shoe fits all scenario. If clubs genuinely don’t have numbers for go games then the max amount clubs that join together should be 2.
To be fair to the likes of Coolderry Drumcullen Clareen etc. they play on their own at go games level and their numbers are really small it’s the football amalgamations that have the issue here.
I’d imagine this one won’t be a simple for the county board to get over the line