U20 football championship draw

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U20 football championship draw

Postby LooseCannon » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:27 pm

U20 draw at CCC tonight.
Prem A St Vincents v Gracefield
Prem B St Michael's v Kilcormac/ Killoughey

Round 1
St Manchan Gaels v Shamrocks,
Prem B winners v St Rynagh's,
Prem A winners v Tullamore,
St Broughan's v Na Fianna

St Michaels are Rhode, Brigids, Clonmore, aren’t they?
St Manchan’s are Lemonaghon+Tubber, aren’t they?
St Rynaghs: weren’t they Shannon Gaels with Shannonbridge+Lusmagh? What happened there, or was a mistake made?

Anyone know when the rest of the Draw is made?
Durrow, Ferbane, St Patrick’s yet to be drawn.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Lone Shark » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:29 pm

LooseCannon wrote:U20 draw at CCC tonight.
Prem A St Vincents v Gracefield
Prem B St Michael's v Kilcormac/ Killoughey

Round 1
St Manchan Gaels v Shamrocks,
Prem B winners v St Rynagh's,
Prem A winners v Tullamore,
St Broughan's v Na Fianna

St Michaels are Rhode, Brigids, Clonmore, aren’t they?
St Manchan’s are Lemonaghon+Tubber, aren’t they?
St Rynaghs: weren’t they Shannon Gaels with Shannonbridge+Lusmagh? What happened there, or was a mistake made?

Anyone know when the rest of the Draw is made?
Durrow, Ferbane, St Patrick’s yet to be drawn.


Correct on Michaels. St. Manchan's used to be Ballycumber/Tubber while St. Colm's was Doon/Erin Rovers, but I think they're all in together now. And the absence of a "Shannon Gaels" would suggest that nobody bothered to look for permission to play as a group side, or else Shannonbridge/Lusmagh have only one or two, and they'll seek permission individually. One would assume that the likes of Barry Rohan would certainly be keen to play somewhere.

The four semi-finalists from the previous year tend to get a bye into the last eight. That's the three above, plus Clara as well.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby LooseCannon » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:20 am

There appears to be somewhat of a Twitter-storm over Weery. Also I note that there was a bit on Facebook it in the Tribune.
Given St Rynaghs’ poor performance at u20 this year, it appears that it will probably revert back to the previous agreement as Shannon Gaels. 39 lads togged out is ridiculous. Even from u13 up to u17, Ferbane would have nearly two teams on their own, never mind with Shannonbridge lads.

For the sake of football in not only Shannonbridge, but in Cloghan also, I feel that it makes sense for them to join up with a new Shannon Gaels minor club, where Shannonbridge could field their own up until u11 as could Rynaghs, and join up thereafter up to u20s.

I feel that it makes sense, as only three out of nine Shannonbridge players got played, and they’re the three that are on the Offaly u20s team/panel! It would also help bring up the standard to which Rynaghs would be playing at underage.

Just a thought or two.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Lone Shark » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:56 pm

I think a lot of people east of Pullough don't realise quite how small Shannonbridge actually is in terms of numbers. This is an area that is serviced by one, 3-teacher national school. To be fair to the people of the club, they do a great job in getting nearly everyone out to play football, but the idea that they are a huge boost in terms of numbers to Ferbane is ridiculous.

On the wider point of whether Rynaghs and Shannonbridge should join up for underage on a regular basis, it possibly should be looked at and of course it's a matter for the two clubs involved to decide if they want to go down that road, but it has to be remembered here that (1) Rynagh's catchment area would have a slightly bigger population than that of Ferbane/Belmont to begin with, and (2) in hurling, Shannonbridge players typically play with Belmont anyway, so it makes sense that they would play with them up along, and (3) Shannonbridge people largely go to secondary school in Ferbane, while the majority of Rynagh's people, barring the smallest handful, go to school in Banagher. Surely it would make sense to have the handful of Shannonbridge lads involved with the lads they know and hang around with, than a different group entirely.

It's easy to rail against it when the team is successful, but of the four semi-finalists in this championship, the smallest pick by population would have been that of Wheery. This combination has been going on since 2004 and to say that there were 30-something lads listed is a misnomer. I recall going to the Ferbane press night two years ago in advance of the county final, and the minors were training the same night. One of the mentors, who had worked with that group for a long time, told me that regardless of any medals won, the thing he was most proud of was that when they came together at U-12, there were 36 footballers. Six years later, 35 out of that 36 were still playing football. If the day comes when we're punishing clubs for retaining players like that, we've lost our way entirely.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby True Red » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:37 pm

'
the smallest pick by population would have been that of Wheery


We've had this conversation before :D but I stress again that the above nugget is not relevant. Census population doesn't come into it if you have a core group of 30 lads that have been together since childhood.

if Wheery had 35 lads togged out the other day, or indeed any day, it would be 12 -15 more than what St Patricks could muster. This is no one's fault only our own, allied to a range of other options that can occur in a town like Edenderry (other sports, college, work, relationships and the divil drink!)
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Lone Shark » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:50 pm

True Red wrote:'
the smallest pick by population would have been that of Wheery


We've had this conversation before :D but I stress again that the above nugget is not relevant. Census population doesn't come into it if you have a core group of 30 lads that have been together since childhood.


We have, and to be fair, I think that we're not as far apart in views as all that.

I completely take the point that it's not as simple as a linear relationship between population and playing numbers, particularly when the "commuter town" factor comes into play, since these people will by nature, be far less interested in any form of activity in their local community.

I don't agree that things like drink, work, relationships or even rugby are unique to urban towns in Ireland, and I certainly don't buy into the premise that some people are stating, which is that since the Ferbane/Belmont minor club has done an exceptional job of keeping over 90% of the players in this age bracket involved in football all up along, it's therefore logical that Shannonbridge should then have been made to send their players to either St. Manchan's (which is already a fairly big gathering) or even further afield to somewhere like Kilcormac-Killoughey or Shamrocks.

(As an aside, the people who think that Shannonbridge shouldn't have been allowed to play with Ferbane - who do ye think they should have been sent to???)

As an adult club, Ferbane didn't ask for the Shannonbridge players to be brought in, but they did discuss the matter, and vote on it. And to be fair, when you consider that the history of Shannonbridge players hurling with Belmont goes back over a century, that these lads have played together all the way up along the line, that they go to school together, that there is a relationship there up along the minor grades, and above all, that this group didn't win a championship (while playing together as well) at U14 in 2012, at U16 in 2014, or at minor two years ago, then the only realistic option for the club was to vote to accommodate them.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby LooseCannon » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:04 pm

Lone Shark wrote:
True Red wrote:'
the smallest pick by population would have been that of Wheery


We've had this conversation before :D but I stress again that the above nugget is not relevant. Census population doesn't come into it if you have a core group of 30 lads that have been together since childhood.


We have, and to be fair, I think that we're not as far apart in views as all that.

I completely take the point that it's not as simple as a linear relationship between population and playing numbers, particularly when the "commuter town" factor comes into play, since these people will by nature, be far less interested in any form of activity in their local community.

I don't agree that things like drink, work, relationships or even rugby are unique to urban towns in Ireland, and I certainly don't buy into the premise that some people are stating, which is that since the Ferbane/Belmont minor club has done an exceptional job of keeping over 90% of the players in this age bracket involved in football all up along, it's therefore logical that Shannonbridge should then have been made to send their players to either St. Manchan's (which is already a fairly big gathering) or even further afield to somewhere like Kilcormac-Killoughey or Shamrocks.

(As an aside, the people who think that Shannonbridge shouldn't have been allowed to play with Ferbane - who do ye think they should have been sent to???)

As an adult club, Ferbane didn't ask for the Shannonbridge players to be brought in, but they did discuss the matter, and vote on it. And to be fair, when you consider that the history of Shannonbridge players hurling with Belmont goes back over a century, that these lads have played together all the way up along the line, that they go to school together, that there is a relationship there up along the minor grades, and above all, that this group didn't win a championship (while playing together as well) at U14 in 2012, at U16 in 2014, or at minor two years ago, then the only realistic option for the club was to vote to accommodate them.


They should be with Rynaghs (a struggling club at adult level) (the Banagher end appear to have zero interest)
Go way with the notion of Shamrocks or KK (they might as well play with Pearses or Clann in Roscommon)
St Manchans is a brutal arrangement. Should be DER Gaels and Ballycumber/Tubber

Also a quick correction, St Rynaghs did field at u20 level this year. They were obliterated by KK, who in turn were beaten by double scores v Clara, who were well beaten by Wheery.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Lone Shark » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:43 am

LooseCannon wrote:They should be with Rynaghs (a struggling club at adult level) (the Banagher end appear to have zero interest)
Go way with the notion of Shamrocks or KK (they might as well play with Pearses or Clann in Roscommon)
St Manchans is a brutal arrangement. Should be DER Gaels and Ballycumber/Tubber

Also a quick correction, St Rynaghs did field at u20 level this year. They were obliterated by KK, who in turn were beaten by double scores v Clara, who were well beaten by Wheery.


Banagher lads having a minimal amount of interest in playing football is hardly new. In case you didn't notice, Ferbane parish also has a big chunk of it where hurling is not the first sport, the only difference is that lads in all three clubs in the parish have put thirty years of hard work into developing an ethos of co-operation, and an ethic of encouraging young players to play and maintain both sports. I've never sat into a club committee meeting in Banagher, but I don't know if that's high on their agenda.

Plus yes, St. Rynaghs did field a team - but that's literally what they did, cobble together a team on the day. Given that Shannonbridge football club is working off such a small player base, they can ill afford to put off any of their players; much less this group that contains arguably the three most important players they have in their bid to win the IFC. You can see why they wouldn't want to send them over to Cloghan, they wanted to play with a team that wanted to train and prepare reasonably well. Ferbane were always likely to do that, Rynaghs weren't, on this occasion.

And once more with feeling, if the view is that Shannonbridge plus Ferbane parish has too big a pick, well Shannonbridge plus Rynaghs is just as big a population - what you're in effect saying is that because Ferbane do a better job of keeping their lads in the game, they should be handicapped.

And I wasn't trying to actually suggest that Shannonbridge plus KK should be considered, I was more pointing out that if you don't let the Bridge lads play with Ferbane, you have to send them somewhere, and that's the next stop.

Yes, in an ideal world St. Rynagh's would be a lot stronger in their own right and that would be another option, but it's hardly the fault of the county board, or anyone else outside of Cloghan for that matter, that they're just not there right now. Likewise, the internal politics of the four clubs involved with St. Manchan's is a complex issue, and while some of the clubs in that arrangement are conscious of the fact that they would be better served by fielding two combination sides rather than one and thus give more football to more players, that view isn't universally held. Moreover, once you go over U14, they wouldn't be capable of fielding two sides, at least based on 2017 numbers. You might have a situation one year where B/T can manage by themselves, or another where DER would be okay without the other two, but my understanding is that there isn't any age bracket where both of those entities would have 20 players each.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby LooseCannon » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:48 pm

I see that “Wheery” won by 12 points. Can’t see that arrangement happening next year.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Lone Shark » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:38 am

LooseCannon wrote:I see that “Wheery” won by 12 points. Can’t see that arrangement happening next year.


Why on earth not? Did we decide that St. Michael's needed to be broken up when they won 6 titles in a row from 2002 to 2007, or another three in a row from 2011 to 2013? When Durrow don't have enough players to field by themselves, they go in with Tullamore - likewise Ballyfore with Edenderry. It's the natural place to send these guys.

If the Shannonbridge footballers or the Shannonbridge club wants to work with St. Rynaghs instead, that's their prerogative, and you can be 100% certain that Ferbane GAA will respect that. But the idea that a combination that is perfectly fine all the way up along the ages is suddenly not okay when it gets to U-20 just because they're suddenly able to win doesn't sit well with me.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby frankthetank » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:08 pm

Big difference:

St. Michael's is all the one parish
Edenderry / Ballyfore is all the one parish
Tullamore / Durrow is all the one parish
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Lone Shark » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:47 pm

frankthetank wrote:Big difference:

St. Michael's is all the one parish
Edenderry / Ballyfore is all the one parish
Tullamore / Durrow is all the one parish


So? All three of those parishes have bigger populations than Ferbane and Shannonbridge parishes put together.

Lusmagh is just one parish, does that mean they should be barred from being part of an amalgamation? Clareen and Drumcullen are two whole parishes, no-one bats an eyelid when they play together at underage, and why would they?

Moreover, If Shannonbridge went in with St. Rynagh's football club, that would be two whole parishes as well (three, if you count Lusmagh, who usually provide one or two players as well). Just because Ferbane/Belmont have done a better job than St. Rynagh's at keeping lads involved in football at this age group, why should Shannonbridge players be punished for that by getting stripped away from the entity that everyone was very happy for them to play with, as long as they didn't win everything.

In an ideal world, every club would field their own team at every age grade - but the fact of the matter is that lots of clubs simply can't do that, and it's not always practical to just lump two or more small clubs in together. Surely it makes far more sense to look at things like school affiliation, overall population and playing numbers, and (shock, horror!) what the clubs themselves actually want, as opposed to how the Catholic church chose to divide up the country over 300 years ago, before minor matters like the famine and the industrial revolution changed the Irish landscape and demographics rather dramatically.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby first_touch » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:49 pm

Totally with you on this one, Lone Shark. It's ridiculous that people are making an issue out of this. Have ye nothing else to be bothered about?
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:23 pm

There seems to be a knee jerk reaction of 'need to split *winners* in two' every time someone wins something now. It's fierce tiresome. Anyway, well done to Wheery, the county's first U20 football winners.
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Re: U20 football championship draw

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:27 pm

Splitting hairs on my part, admittedly, but I do believe Clonmore Harps is in a different parish to Rhode-Croghan. Someone with more local knowledge than I might confirm that.
frankthetank wrote:Big difference:

St. Michael's is all the one parish
Edenderry / Ballyfore is all the one parish
Tullamore / Durrow is all the one parish
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