B championship

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Re: B championship

Postby Sharp Eye » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:10 pm

allstar2010 wrote:What's wrong with 2 groups of 4. Top 2 into semi like the football. More competitive games and less waste of time games. Simple!


The format of the 2016 Senior Football Championship was not a success in my opinion. It is well known that club-league games in Offaly are treated like challenge games by most clubs. Edenderry, in reality played 3 senior football games in 2016. The suffered a defeat to Rhode, drew with Tullamore and defeated Clara. They failed to qualify on "Score Difference". I don't think that is fair to club players, getting just 3 games with the level of training that many club players undertake nowadays.
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Re: B championship

Postby Lone Shark » Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:32 pm

Sharp Eye wrote:
allstar2010 wrote:What's wrong with 2 groups of 4. Top 2 into semi like the football. More competitive games and less waste of time games. Simple!


The format of the 2016 Senior Football Championship was not a success in my opinion. It is well known that club-league games in Offaly are treated like challenge games by most clubs. Edenderry, in reality played 3 senior football games in 2016. The suffered a defeat to Rhode, drew with Tullamore and defeated Clara. They failed to qualify on "Score Difference". I don't think that is fair to club players, getting just 3 games with the level of training that many club players undertake nowadays.


So instead the plan is replacing it with a system where lads will treat the championship like challenge games as well?

In 90% of the counties across Ireland, you won't be guaranteed any more than three championship games. There are still plenty of straight knockout systems (mainly in Ulster) and there are plenty more that run knockout with a backdoor (including Kerry and Dublin), so you're only guaranteed two games. I'm not advocating that, but the problem in Offaly is not the championship, the problem is the league - and yet we seem to just accept that the league is a waste of time, and so we try to create a championship that serves as both league and championship - and that's not realistic.The elephant in the room is that the league is the problem, and if clubs choose to treat the league with disdain, they can hardly complain when they don't get a lot of good games in the year.

The purpose of championship is to be the highlight of the year - 100% intense battles where there is a lot at stake. The purpose of the league is to provide a regular programme of games. These are conflicting goals, so you cannot use the one competition to tick both boxes.

If your dishwasher was broken, would you try and get that repaired, or would you run the risk of breaking your washing machine by horsing all the plates, mugs and cutlery in there and putting it on? Because that's effectively what we're doing.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: B championship

Postby allstar2010 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:28 pm

Sharp Eye wrote:
allstar2010 wrote:What's wrong with 2 groups of 4. Top 2 into semi like the football. More competitive games and less waste of time games. Simple!


The format of the 2016 Senior Football Championship was not a success in my opinion. It is well known that club-league games in Offaly are treated like challenge games by most clubs. Edenderry, in reality played 3 senior football games in 2016. The suffered a defeat to Rhode, drew with Tullamore and defeated Clara. They failed to qualify on "Score Difference". I don't think that is fair to club players, getting just 3 games with the level of training that many club players undertake nowadays.


They got 3 games lost 2 and drew 1! Therefore they didn't deserve to go on any further. Every championship game imho should be played at knockout competitiveness standard hence the term "championship pace". If teams are just in Senior hurling to avoid relegation what's the point.

One group of 8 is Not championship, that's a league. Waste of time.
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Re: B championship

Postby Bord na Mona man » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:51 pm

sam88885a wrote:I Hear that the real reason that E kelly left was they Cb and he privately said last May that he had to get out quickly enough because of they county board and that he couldnt blame good club hurlers for not coming on board with the way thing were done .

First it was work commitments, then it was because of crank calls, now it turns out it was the crunchie board that were the problem all along.
Anyway, weren't you telling us after the Kerry game that the verdict from down there was that 'e kelly' hadn't a clue. No you're making a martyr of him.
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Re: B championship

Postby Sharp Eye » Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:50 pm

allstar2010 wrote:
Sharp Eye wrote:
allstar2010 wrote:What's wrong with 2 groups of 4. Top 2 into semi like the football. More competitive games and less waste of time games. Simple!


The format of the 2016 Senior Football Championship was not a success in my opinion. It is well known that club-league games in Offaly are treated like challenge games by most clubs. Edenderry, in reality played 3 senior football games in 2016. The suffered a defeat to Rhode, drew with Tullamore and defeated Clara. They failed to qualify on "Score Difference". I don't think that is fair to club players, getting just 3 games with the level of training that many club players undertake nowadays.


They got 3 games lost 2 and drew 1! Therefore they didn't deserve to go on any further. Every championship game imho should be played at knockout competitiveness standard hence the term "championship pace". If teams are just in Senior hurling to avoid relegation what's the point.

One group of 8 is Not championship, that's a league. Waste of time.


From memory I think Edenderry lost ONE game in the 2016 championship. In most counties a team must be defeated at least twice in order not to qualify for the "knock-out" stages of the championship.
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Re: B championship

Postby allstar2010 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:03 pm

Apologies read that wrong, still stand by my point that quality over quantity regarding matches is the way forward
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Re: B championship

Postby Lone Shark » Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:28 pm

Sharp Eye wrote:From memory I think Edenderry lost ONE game in the 2016 championship. In most counties a team must be defeated at least twice in order not to qualify for the "knock-out" stages of the championship.


Around 40-50% of championships would run some sort of group format, most of the rest would be either straight knockout, or else one defeat, backdoor, then out. Teams getting knocked out without losing two matches would be rare, but not unheard of. Kiltane in Mayo, St Mary's in Donegal and Ballymahon in Longford (as well as Edenderry) would be three that I can think of off the top of my head this year.

However teams getting to play knockout football or hurling after losing two games is also rare, and we're looking at a system where a team could lose three games - possibly even four - and still make a semi-final? I don't see how you could have any sort of intensity to games in that environment.
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Re: B championship

Postby NewEra » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:27 pm

Two things I liked this year from football championships is how competitive the championships now are. It would have been near impossible to guess the winners from 3 out of the 4 grades at the start of year - Ferbane in the Junior and Cappincur in the Senior B especially. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier of the championships are now ultra competitive (fair enough the quality might not be huge). There are 6 out of the 8 teams with realistic ambitions of winning championships. This drives on players to commit at start of the year, to train and improve - HOW IS THIS NOT GOOD?

Why would clubs, players or supporters alike want to struggle year on year to starve off a relegation semi final or final? Hurling championships in Offaly are predictable in terms of what teams will make Q/F's and what teams will play in relegation semi finals. Terrible for the county. Too much of a gulf between strong and the weak in senior. Senior B eradicates all of this. Some people again demonstrating their superiority complex that they are too good to be in a Senior B championship - I personally prefer Laois how they call it Senior and Senior A. The reality of it is Senior B football championship in Offaly has been the most exciting and unpredictable over the last 2 years.

The 2x4 groups in my opinion cannot be bet. It gives underdogs a fighting chance for an upset to make it through the group. 8 teams in one group kills this. One sided games, poor crowds, no atmosphere etc.
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Re: B championship

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:36 pm

I'd expect the number of clubs in a group in 2018's championship will be dictated by whether or not Offaly will be involved in that year's Leinster round robin. That factor will be known on the last weekend of next May when Offaly will have to face (probably) Leix or Westmeath at an away venue.

The round robin wipes out the mid-April to mid-May period for club activity.

And anyone else notice how 2017's Leinster round robin will be played a week earlier that that of 2016?
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: B championship

Postby Pat Mustard » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:21 pm

i always thought the Laois hurling championship was very well run 8 teams open draw
2 games on a saturday 2 on a sunday
four winners into winners group open draw again, two winners progress to semi final
2 losers play quater final
4 teams in losers group open draw 2 winners progress to quater final
2 losers play off relagation final
it means a team gets two bites at the cherry and every game count
senior b etc ran on same format
and u could run the football the same
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Re: B championship

Postby Fargo Boyle » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:40 pm

I always thought that the Cats had it nailed down to a tee in terms of championship and league structures.

In senior hurling the league dictates where you start your championship campaign. The top 2 teams in the league get a bye to the quarter final I think. The bottom four teams of the league start in the first round of the championship and the 2 losers of those games face off in the relegation play off. The winners progress to the next round of the championship. All games are knock out from there on in.

The result is a competitive league where position does matter. The league then ties in nicely to the championship. It means hard hurling from the start of the league right through the championship
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Re: B championship

Postby substandard » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:00 pm

Fargo Boyle wrote:I always thought that the Cats had it nailed down to a tee in terms of championship and league structures.

In senior hurling the league dictates where you start your championship campaign. The top 2 teams in the league get a bye to the quarter final I think. The bottom four teams of the league start in the first round of the championship and the 2 losers of those games face off in the relegation play off. The winners progress to the next round of the championship. All games are knock out from there on in.

The result is a competitive league where position does matter. The league then ties in nicely to the championship. It means hard hurling from the start of the league right through the championship


I've often wondered about a format like that; think Galway have/had something similar to make leagues competitive. Probably works a treat in Kilkenny because there's no dual issue (presumably!!). Don't know how it would fare in Offaly- plus the issue of access to players from county squads would need to be squared with county management. Then again, the Laois system sounds competitive also, so hard to know what's best.
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Re: B championship

Postby Lone Shark » Fri Dec 02, 2016 6:55 pm

Fargo Boyle wrote:....The result is a competitive league where position does matter....


That would be fine, except it doesn't. Yes you can get a pass straight into a quarter final, but that sometimes means that the team that finishes third gets a knockout tie against a weak team to sharpen things up, while the team finishing second or first comes in cold against that match-fit opponent. It only works for one reason - because clubs in Kilkenny are relatively even, so the chances of any team having 4/4 wins or 4/4 defeats going into the final round is low, and because they have a culture of hurling hard to win every game, even if it doesn't really do much for the chances of winning your championship.

We can dance around it all we like, but Offaly as a county (some clubs are honourable exceptions) DOES NOT have that culture.

Let's not forget that we brought this in for one year - what happened? Tullamore failed to win any of their five group games, then went on to win the championship. I had a chat with Kevin Martin not long after and while he wasn't saying straight out that they weren't trying, he said that there was no incentive there to win those games and to show your hand, and that the players responded accordingly. They didn't "not try", but the difference in intensity when the knockout games came along was marked. Particularly when you have a dual culture, the temptation in that environment will be to take a few weeks off and focus on the football, if it's the case that they are the team probably facing a do or die situation. Of course we've also now decided to neuter our football championship in the same way.

Imagine for a moment now that you have a group of six, with every team going through to the knockouts, with Tullamore, Rynaghs and Belmont all in it. Now imagine that the recent changes to the SFC didn't happen and you also have a senior football championship group of four with Rhode, Ferbane, Tullamore and Rynaghs, top two to progress. Those football games will matter, and those hurling games won't - and you can rest assured that the players and management will know that all too well.


Some day, people in this county are going to have to accept the truth - you can't have a system where you have lots of games, but they're all important. That's Zimbabwe dollar thinking - it doesn't wash in the real world, people just ignore them and try to use US currency instead. Certainly I won't be travelling from Roscommon to watch too many Offaly SFC round robin games next year.

This year Kilcormac-Killoughey played St Rynaghs in the group stages of the Offaly SHC, and KK won by a couple of points. That was a championship game - and yet the odds for each team to win the Sean Robbins Cup were completely unchanged by that result. The bookies knew full well that both teams were going to be playing knockout hurling regardless, and that finishing higher up in the group was not important. (So it proved - Rynaghs topped the group and played Coolderry, KK drew Clareen - was that a reward for Rynaghs? I don't think so.)

Now if the bookies knew it didn't matter (and they were right) who are we kidding when we tell ourselves that it did?
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: B championship

Postby sam88885a » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:38 pm

I think no matter what system was used St Rynagh and kk were lightly to make the semi finals at least and both are lightly to be in the semi next year again because the have big squads of good hurlers .
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