Bally v Edenderry

seamroga · Post by **seamroga** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:13 pm

Regarding Treasurer's post, I'm not sure was specifically the Category A, B or C offences are. However, when a player receives a 'straight' red card, to the best of my knowledge he must miss a championship game. There has been some confusion over this rule, but I'd be suspicious - as opposed to certain - that Edenderry should not have played Finbarr Cullen. I think this rule was introduced primarily because some players were suspended for four weeks and if, for example, there was a long break in the championship, they would miss no games and effectively suffer no punishment. It's a pity that a lot of ordinary supporters - myself included - are finding it hard to keep pace with all the rule changes.
The Chairman of the County Board has absolutely nothing to do with situations such as this, but I think the onus would still be on Ballycumber to object.
(Incidentially, the confusion over Mark Vaughan and Roy Malone centred on whether they should miss the next game in their respective club championships, or their first outing in the provincial club championships which followed their county finals. It seemed to be generally accepted that they should sit out a game in one or the other. So the confusion over their situations was somewhat different than the position Edenderry and Finbarr Cullen are in now).

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:46 pm

True Red wrote:In the 1st championship game between these two sides in 2005 Ballycumber were highly motivated and you would have observed how motivated they were if you were at the match.They played this match to win no matter what you say about this being " modern sport".I hardly imagine that the respective mentors that were in charge of Ballycumber last year were telling them in the dressing room beforehand to adopt a "softly softly" approach or "go on out there lads and play well and sure if ye win isnt it great...."

Please dont be so naive Lone Shark as to think that this was the case.In the play off match i concur with you that they did not play to win,evidenced by the fact that they fielded a good few Juniors.

I have no idea what the management said to the players at that first game, or what the management plan was. Nor did I ever suggest that Ballycumber played to lose, merely that they were trying to win the same way you or I would try to win a February league game. I was told in advance by a couple of players involved that that was likely to be the case - hence I tipped Edenderry to win that game, despite having NOT tipped ye to beat either Erin Rovers or Shannonbridge, both teams I considered weaker than Ballycumber.

I'm not in the business of making statements like this without reason to do so - incidentally even though we've a good few Ballycumber boys on here, none of them felt the need to come on and say that I'm in error, despite the fact that this came up a few times.

Treasurer · Post by **Treasurer** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:41 pm

However, when a player receives a 'straight' red card, to the best of my knowledge he must miss a championship game.

You can get a straight red and not get an automatic match suspension, it depends on what the ref says in the report and what category it falls into.

far from croghan hill · Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:53 am

cullen has been cited for a category d offence i heard.i was in killeens in rhode on saturday night and the rumour was that ballycumber knew before the game and waited to see the outcome.true sportsmanship

True Red · Post by **True Red** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:56 am

Any team that approaches a SFC match in that frame of mind deserves to be beaten.No team with serious title aspirations would approach a championship match in such a lack lustre manner and i am surprised and dissappointed in Ballycumber that they took that sort of attitude last year.

However the clash last Saturday surely must have laid to rest your theory that Ballycumber are a BETTER side than Edenderry??or did they approach that match with the same casual style?

Lea-Bally-man · Post by **Lea-Bally-man** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:07 pm

I don’t see how any of this is Ballycumber’s Fault.
Ballycumber were not aware of Finbar Cullen’s situation prior to the game and were only made aware of this on Monday by a Rhode official.
Ballycumber have not done anything wrong or untoward
It is Edenderry who have Broken the rules here and people should be blaming them and not Ballycumber. Rules are Rules they are there for everybody.

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:36 pm

far from croghan hill wrote:cullen has been cited for a category d offence i heard.i was in killeens in rhode on saturday night and the rumour was that ballycumber knew before the game and waited to see the outcome.true sportsmanship

If this is true, then it's bang out of order. I'd need a little more evidence than bar stool rumours before believing it though.

As was said, Edenderry would have got notification of Finbar's suspension - if they were unclear, they should have made sure it was clarified - they had 8 months after all. If they were correct and he was not suspended, we have no problem.

Regarding who's better between Edenderry and Ballycumber, there is feck all between them - last year I would have had Ballycumber by a couple of points, this year before the game I couldn't split them (Edenderry have a few younger players coming on - Bally haven't had any strong minor players for a few years now) so I tipped a draw. Based on the fact that Edenderry won the game, I guess I was wrong and they are the better side by a few points - but I conceded this much already. I think you're taking me up all wrong on this BTW - I'm not for a minute saying that Edenderry wouldn't have beaten Ballycumber in a hell for leather winner takes all knockout championship game - it would have been a very close betting encounter, probably 10/11 Ballycumber and 6/5 Edenderry or something - all I'm saying is that type of game never happened - so we'll never know.

You are right in that no team should approach a championship game in that manner - but the fact remains that the system was such that whoever came second in that group would get it handier than whoever came first. Edenderry wanted a crack at Rhode, which is admirable and understandable, seeing as the local rivalry is there. Surely it is human nature that when the pressure comes on, and the time comes to dig deep - it can't help but be a factor that players know deep down that if I break my bollix to win this ball and make all the difference, in the long run I'm going to lose out for succeeding in doing so. What you can't deny either is that they were vindicated. Two teams of comparable enough ability got to the quarters - one of them played the county's best side and lost, the other got to play a side of similar standard and won.

seamroga · Post by **seamroga** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:42 pm

Sadly, Far From Croghan Hill has made a couple of silly posts on this subject. As I stated before, the County Chairman has no role in these situation - he is not a member of the Games Administration Committee of the County Board.
Secondly, even if Ballycumber were aware of the situation before the game, it would not have been appropriate for them to recommend to Edenderry who they should or shouldn't play.
Even if this unfounded alligation were true, it would not be 'bang out of order', as Lone Shark claimed.
The responsibility lay with Edenderry in this instance. If, and at this stage it must remain an if, a mistake was made, no-one should start pointing the finger at another club or individual.

far from croghan hill · Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:01 pm

fair enough the chairman is not a member of the GAC, but would and could use his influence on matters. the chairman of the county board has in the last three years medaled in matters that were not his business. however as lea bally man stated, they were informed by a rhode man of edenderry breaking the rules(this man i presume is a member of the GAC) then it goes to show that there are more sinister motives behind this episode.believe me im all for the rules of the association and them being upheld, but i just think it a cowardly thing that is going on by a few individuals who are running and ruining offaly gaa.

Sniper · Post by **Sniper** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:50 pm

Surely the onus would be on the disciplinary committee of Offaly county board to bring about an action on this matter. After all it was they who suspended Finbar so they should make sure he serves it. If, and I'm not sure, he was to miss the next championship, well then surely it would be up to them to bring him to task. I don't think it would be up to Ballycumber or a mysterious Rhode official to launch an objection.

Rules are rules, and if they are broken then there should be a watchdog to spot these. After all the referee has to send in a report, with teamsheats, to the county board for each match.

Whatever the outcome, it must not be forgotten that Finbar Cullen was one of, if not the, greatest servent to Offaly football of this era.

seamroga · Post by **seamroga** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:51 pm

Far From Croghan Hill wrote: "I'm all for the rules of the assocation and them being upheld". Phew, that's a relief! I was wondering where he was coming from for a while. However, he continues to post unfounded (and potentially dangerous) alligations.
Personally, I wouldn't interfere in an issue involving two other clubs, but phone call or no phone call, the bottom line is this rule isn't a secret and if Edenderry erred, then there's no point blaming another club or individual.
If Edenderry did not line out according to the rules last weekend, it would be very risky to have that hanging over them all season. What if a club had a player sent off next weekend and had no game for another two months? Should they play the person sent off, regardless of the rule?
By the way, I don't think a player should get a lengthy suspension for such an error - and we'll presume it was a genuine error - because players aren't always up to date on the guidelines. I'd prefer if the rule book just forced the team in question to forfeit the game.
Hopefully, Far From Croghan Hill will dwell a little longer on the matter and maybe withdraw some of his remarks. We'll wait and see.

far from croghan hill · Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:27 am

my remarks about the chairman of the county board will not be withdrawn by me im afraid. just as some people were very critical of Kevin K a couple of weeks past, i to must be allowed voice my criticsm at the chairman. he played a major part in the removal of the last two offaly managers who it has to be said were doing a fair job and should have been given longer terms in the job. this is fact

finbarr cullen will be suspended and as such will be forced to retire. the rules of the association will be upheld, and the parocilism and petty differances will remain in offaly gaa much to the detrement of our county teams.but perhaps that doesnt bother seomroga who is quite content with the cosy little situation that exists.

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 1:24 pm

Whatever the outcome, it must not be forgotten that Finbar Cullen was one of, if not the, greatest servent to Offaly football of this era.

Nobody is forgetting this for a minute - however this doesn't mean he should be treated any differently to any other footballer in the county in terms of receiving and serving suspensions.

my remarks about the chairman of the county board will not be withdrawn by me im afraid. just as some people were very critical of Kevin K a couple of weeks past, i to must be allowed voice my criticsm at the chairman. he played a major part in the removal of the last two offaly managers who it has to be said were doing a fair job and should have been given longer terms in the job. this is fact

Kevin Kilmurray's performance and actions as an Offaly manager have been in clear view for all to see. All of his substitions or lack thereof, all of his team selections and tactical decisions are very apparent every time we see our team take the field. As such it is perfectly acceptable to pass judgement on that, positive or negative. However what role if any Ollie Daly had in the dismissal of Paul O'Kelly, or the 26 votes of no confidence in Gerry Fahy that forced his hand is not a matter of public record, and so commenting on that is unfair on the man. As to whether they should have been given longer terms - I agree with you, vociferously in O'Kelly's case and less so but still in agreement on Fahy's. But to say that it is fact is by definition wrong - no-one can know how the future would have panned out with those men in charge, or could have known how it would have worked out with Kilmurray.

finbarr cullen will be suspended and as such will be forced to retire

As someone who is not very well versed on the rules of the situation, I can't comment on whether he's likely to be given a further suspension or whether sanctions would fall on Edenderry club IF Finbarr is found to have knowingly played illegally. For all that though, no one is forcing him to retire. He is around 35 years of age by my calculation so certainly he does not have a long senior club career ahead of him, but even so, this kind of emotive sentence quoted above clouds matters - it's as if you're suggesting that suspensions should not apply to older players because they could retire at any time. I'm not saying you are suggesting that, but I don't really know what argument you hoped to support by this particular line of argument.

parocilism and petty differances will remain in offaly gaa much to the detrement of our county teams.but perhaps that doesnt bother seomroga who is quite content with the cosy little situation that exists

Again, what are you advocating here? Everyone should turn a blind eye to rule breaking on the grounds of solidarity? The situation should be ignored so that Ross Brady and and Rory Guinan should be great friends for when they're playing for Offaly together in five years time? You still haven't really explained how looking for the rules to be upheld is a case of "parochialism and petty differences" at play. Does that mean these are the characteristics being shown every time a forward appeals for a free after a rough challenge? It's just the same thing on a smaller scale after all.

Even if this unfounded alligation were true, it would not be 'bang out of order', as Lone Shark claimed.

All I meant by this was that Ballycumber should have registered their views in advance of the throw in in some official capacity - that way it doesn't seem like sour grapes should they lose - much like the Wheery Broughan's situation where Wheery played under protest rather than just complain afterwards. On reflection speculating on whether or not Cullen was going to be picked was really not their place, so I accept your point on this.

True Red · Post by **True Red** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:22 pm

I am hesitant to respond on this so i will keep it brief.

To correct the Shark(as i am wont to do at times

) Gerry fahy actually won the the county board vote by 1,but resigned as a matter of principle.

As it stands now,If edenderry are forced to forfeit the game,they will lose the points,Cullen will be served with a MINIMUM of 24 weeks ban (for playing ilegally) as will the Chairman and the Secretary of the club.
If this ban is served on him he will retire.

An extremely cruel ending to the career of one of Offaly's finest footballers.

Lone Shark · Post by **Lone Shark** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:52 pm

I remember the Fahy situation all right - hence my reference to the 26 votes of no confidence rather than his dismissal - but fair enough comment all the same.

That punishment is certainly steep to say the least. However I can see why there has to be a deterrent all the same. Without getting into the specifics of this case, it's probably steep but fair in the general sense.

To broaden the debate another little bit, and partially for my own interest - I've never been involved in any club beyond the playing sense, so maybe somebody else could inform me of this. When a player is suspended, I assume an official letter to the club and player are sent out by the relevant GAC at either county or intercounty level. Am I right in assuming this? If such a letter is sent, then surely it is clear as to the terms of the suspension? The way I see this, either such a letter stated that Finbar was suspended for four weeks, in which case Edenderry and Finbar have every right to feel hard done by, or it would state that he was suspended for four weeks and at the least one Edenderry adult championship game, in which case they really have no case.

Am I over simplifying? I understand that True Red mightn't like to disclose any official details from within the club, but can anyone else confirm from past experience if this is the case?