“Shameful” if Lusmagh and Shamrocks stay Senior

[Plain of the Herbs]

Strong words from the Man With the Wire in the ‘Tribune’ this week. Shameful words really, in my opinion.

Generally teams have only been relegated when there is a team being promoted to take their place. Otherwise they stay as they are to keep the numbers.

I can only speak for Lusmagh and it’s no overstatement to say that there is huge disappointment that, after 38 years and 174 matches their Senior status is now out of their hands. I note Corrigan writes “of course, dropping a grade is a huge ordeal”. Goddam right it is.

He goes on “their performances this year have been that of relegation teams and they should accept their fate”. As for Lusmagh, the results might be that of relegation candidates but the performances weren’t (he mightn’t be aware but they lost to Belmont by a single point, K/K by 5, Clareen by 4 and Tullamore by 6 having been level after around 45 minutes.

I am aware though, that they didn’t perform well enough in the vital relegation Final against Shamrocks and fair play to Shamrocks, they had a job to do and they did it. I can see what it is like to finish bottom of the pile and for the same club to finish bottom in both grades would be traumatic for them.

I’m not saying Lusmagh have a divine right to hurl Senior. They don’t. However there are 12 Senior clubs in both codes, and 12 clubs in both Senior, Intermediate and Junior. Divided into 2 groups of six, giving each team 5 matches, two before the summer and three after. To be fair to teams they will need that amount of matches in order to get a chance to build momentum or to recover from setbacks. And what's wrong with having matches?

Corrigan writes “And just because a team is promoted it (relegation) still should be stuck with. Last year twelve teams competed in both senior championships and even if that dropped to eleven in both next year, that would not be a bad thing. It would mean groups of five and six but there would be absolutely nothing wrong with that. Indeed a strong case could be made for deducting the number of senior teams to ten teams in both grades and having a more competitive championship.”

I’m going to make a ‘strong case’ to the contrary using an actual example. I’ve been researching Lusmagh’s results since they went Senior after winning the Junior title in 1973. As our great team of the 90s was breaking up, we had a good run at underage winning minor titles in 1997 & 1999, going on to win U21 titles in 1999 & 2001. At the time those graduated to Senior hurling there were 12 Senior clubs, divided into 3 groups of 4 teams with 2 teams advancing from each group. That meant there were only 3 group matches per year, and in 2001, 2002 & 2003 Lusmagh were drawn along with Birr who were then at their peak. That left them needing to win each of the other two matches and when they lost to Shinrone (round 1, 2001) and Tullamore (round 2, 2002) their championship was over for the year, with no chance to recover, no chance to give players a chance to grow accustomed to hurling Senior. To make things worse, in 2003 they were drawn with Birr, Coolderry and St Rynagh’s which effectively wrote off their year before it began.

Had the current system been in place they might well have reached the quarter finals with a chance of further progress. They were a 'top 8' team at that time though obviously they have slipped down the ranks in recent years. They certainly would have benefitted itf they had the extra matches back then. We should be having more matches, not less, and there are few enough matches crammed into a few months anyway. And what if a Senior club’s second team keep winning the Intermediate title into perpetuity? When do we stop relegating teams to Intermediate? When there are 8 Senior clubs left? 6? 4?

Corrigan continues “It will be interesting to see if Shamrocks and Lusmagh made a might to preserve their status” If anyone knows what that means they might let me know. Actually, don’t bother.

He goes on “hopefully they won’t, but if they do, they should still go down”. God between us and all harm that Shamrocks might be in Senior football or Lusmagh in Senior hurling next year is what he seems to be saying here. “It would be a shameful to see a return to the situation that emerged in the early ‘90s when both Walsh Island and Kinnitty were allowed to retain senior status after board room pleas.”

Shameful? I don’t think so. I think ‘shameful’ is a terrible word. Lusmagh and Shamrocks have no need to feel ashamed of anything. And if we’re the boil on the arse of sections of the local media then they’re going to have to live with us. This is the paper who, a few weeks ago described one of the biggest hurling pitches in the county as ‘tight’ , you know.

The Man on the Wire piece also contains an essay along the lines of ‘the day I went to the All-Ireland’ for the entertainment of Lord knows who.

Finally, on a technical issue, Corrigan should, at this stage of his life, know the difference between a quotation mark and an inverted comma, and their uses. See the Carthage Buckley interview in the same paper.

[townman]

no i wouldn't like to see Lusmagh go from senior either they have gave a lot of great hurlers to offaly since the breakthrough in 1980
its better for offaly hurling the more playing senior hurling the better. Lusmagh have a few nice young hurlers and need to be playing senior.

i think they can still work out a way for a team that wins the inter championship that dont have a senior team should go up senior
like a case Clara or Ballysneagh, killavilla, when they went senior, and leave the likes of Lusmagh and Shamrocks senior still.

it wont do Lusmagh or offaly hurling any good putting them down from senior we need all the clubs we can get playing senior in offaly.

[kingscounty]

there is no way a team should be let stay in a grade if they are relegated fairly.if the inter is won by a team that has a senior team already then fair enough leave the senior the same,but the system has to be fair.if every team kicked up over it then we would get nowhere.take brosna gaels,went from junior to senior,relegated last year and now in inter county semi this year.if your good enough to be in the grade you deserve to be left in the grade,it doesnt matter wheather you lost by 1,2 or 20 points if you dont win games then your in trouble and in the relegation battle.i think it might do lusmagh good to go down to inter grade,it might give them a boost and a chance to win silverware,there would be a big incentive for them to get back up to senior.it is hard to get back to senior but if the interest is there then they should manage it.im not against lusmagh or any team its not nice to see any team drop a grade and lusmagh have produced some greats down through the years,they need to re build for the future and if things go their way this year they might be lucky and stay up.

[Lone Shark]

The system is fair, and to be fair to Lusmagh and Shamrocks, I don't think anyone from either club has suggested for a minute that they deserve to stay up if Ballinamere, Brosna Gaels, St Brigids or Clonbullogue win an intermediate title this year.

POTH has instead voiced his disagreement with Kevin Corrigan, and in this instance, I too can't see the logic behind the wire, so to speak.

The Offaly county board has a system in place that requires the best twelve teams in the county to be senior in both codes. I would be inclined to share Corrigan's view that ten teams might be more appropriate, but that doesn't mean that you change the rules all of a sudden to take an extra step towards that just because the opportunity presents itself. If none of the genuine intermediate clubs are good enough to win that grade, then of course Lusmagh and/or Shamrocks should stay senior, and there would be nothing remotely shameful about this occurrence at all.

If the county board decides that ten teams is the way forward, then that should be voted through, and all clubs should start the year with a clear view on how to secure their place in that top ten. Not suddenly moving the goalposts midway through, which would be a genuine shame on everyone.

In terms of whether Lusmagh going down is good or bad for the club, well that would depend on how they would respond if that eventuality came to pass. Drumcullen got relegated in 2009 and they bounced back with a good win in Intermediate and the area even got the boost of a Leinster club campaign. It was a great fillip for the club and they should be the stronger for it. In football, Edenderry are favourites to reach a county final tomorrow and they too used relegation as a positive influence a few years ago and are now reaping fair reward for the way they set about the task of rebuilding the club's fortunes.

On the other hand you have clubs like Ballyskenach and Killavilla, where relegation seems to have been the catalyst for a bit of a tailspin. That's not to say that they did anything wrong, obviously demographics are a huge issue in those clubs, but nobody could accuse Lusmagh of being a big club either.

[townman]

Lusmagh could well fall into that tailspin to.

[kinnittyman]

no i wouldn't like to see Lusmagh go from senior either they have gave a lot of great hurlers to offaly since the breakthrough in 1980
its better for offaly hurling the more playing senior hurling the better. Lusmagh have a few nice young hurlers and need to be playing senior.

i think they can still work out a way for a team that wins the inter championship that dont have a senior team should go up senior
like a case Clara or Ballysneagh, killavilla, when they went senior, and leave the likes of Lusmagh and Shamrocks senior still.

it wont do Lusmagh or offaly hurling any good putting them down from senior we need all the clubs we can get playing senior in offaly.

I have to totally disagree when you say "the more playing senior the better"!! Do you think we should have a 20 team senior county championship?

Some of the group games this year were absolutley terrible so I can't see how increasing the amount of senior teams in the championship can improve the situation.

Killavilla's second game senior was a 3-17 to 0-03 loss to us, Clara handed us a walkover when they were up. These games didn't do anything for the championship. I'm not denying either the right to hurl senior after winning the intermediate but in my opinion a 10 team senior championship is the way to go thus having a much stronger intermediate championship where the winners would have a much better chance of making an impression at senior level the following year.

[Lone Shark]

Lusmagh just lost one of their two chances. Brosna Gaels beat Birr in Lusmagh, 1-16 to 1-12. Good game, very fit and committed Brosna Gaels team deserved their win, they played their hearts out throughout.

[Bord na Mona man]

We'll say if someone like Birr (with a senior team) keeps winning the Intermediate every year.
Do we keep relegating a Senior team every time?
The Senior championship could keep losing a team every year then.

[joe bloggs]

no i wouldn't like to see Lusmagh go from senior either they have gave a lot of great hurlers to offaly since the breakthrough in 1980
its better for offaly hurling the more playing senior hurling the better. Lusmagh have a few nice young hurlers and need to be playing senior.

i think they can still work out a way for a team that wins the inter championship that dont have a senior team should go up senior
like a case Clara or Ballysneagh, killavilla, when they went senior, and leave the likes of Lusmagh and Shamrocks senior still.

it wont do Lusmagh or offaly hurling any good putting them down from senior we need all the clubs we can get playing senior in offaly.

I have to totally disagree when you say "the more playing senior the better"!! Do you think we should have a 20 team senior county championship?

Some of the group games this year were absolutley terrible so I can't see how increasing the amount of senior teams in the championship can improve the situation.

Killavilla's second game senior was a 3-17 to 0-03 loss to us, Clara handed us a walkover when they were up. These games didn't do anything for the championship. I'm not denying either the right to hurl senior after winning the intermediate but in my opinion a 10 team senior championship is the way to go thus having a much stronger intermediate championship where the winners would have a much better chance of making an impression at senior level the following year.

I would be inclined to agree with you there. Close competitive games are important in the championship, and while it would be nice to have 12 senior teams, there may be an argument for going to ten.
It would also improve the intermediate championship, which is quite weak when you compare it to galway and tipp. It is quite alarming really when you think of it that our intermediate representatives are put in to the Leinster junior championship, and as of yet no intermediate team from Offaly has managed to win it

[Long John]

In fairness to POTH I can see clearly what he is saying and I dont think anyone can disagree with it. The person in question is full of crap. He knows feck all really about GAA but thinks he is this great analyst. He's full of crap to put it nicely.

POTH is not saying that the relegated teams deserve to be kept up or anything like it. What I am getting from his comments is that he is disgusted at this person trying to lay the boot into the teams that are down. I have read alot of waffle he has wrote about Shamrocks down the years and in my opinion was always delighted to blow them up for a fall in a final and then stick the boot in. Chatting alot of lads from alot of clubs they have all expressed their opinion that he should be taken likely as hes just as bad as any of these lads in the crowd who never kicked or pucked a ball in their lives but feel they can slate every player they watch. Ive read plenty of digs he has made over the years.

This is not an issue about Lusmagh or Shamrocks. This is about one person trying to be the big man laying the boot into two teams that are feeling fairly low as it is. He is a bloody disgrace.

[puzzled]

Perhaps someone could put me straight on this one,are Lusmagh and Shamrocks sure to be saved if St.Rynaghs and Rhode win the intermediate hurling and football championships? From what I can gather from well informed GAA people they will still be relegated no matter who wins! Anyone know for sure?

[Lone Shark]

The rules are straighforward, if no-one goes up, then no-one goes down.

I'm pretty sure no-one was forced to be relegated in 2005, 2006 and 2007, when Coolderry, K/K and Birr won the intermediate titles. Clara chose to go down IIRC, and Tullamore chose to stay up when they finished bottom of the pile, which I think was 2006.

[puzzled]

The rules are straighforward, if no-one goes up, then no-one goes down.

I'm pretty sure no-one was forced to be relegated in 2005, 2006 and 2007, when Coolderry, K/K and Birr won the intermediate titles. Clara chose to go down IIRC, and Tullamore chose to stay up when they finished bottom of the pile, which I think was 2006.

2007 Birr won the Intermediate and Ballyskenagh were relegated?

[Lone Shark]

Again, they chose to make the drop.

[Treasurer]

Again, they chose to make the drop.

News to me!

Not the case.