Hurling to return to St Brendan's Park

[backofthenet]

I have to commend Buck Face, i think youve argued the points correctly and better than any representative so far. I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion, again no vested interest just from a hurling club and speaking with all the players from the club that have represented the county this year and in the past all of them would favour a return to birr.

@BnaMMan

God forbid we would have a capacity crowd! Besides both tmes you speak about were held at neutral venus so your argument is irrelevant. Has there ever been one hurling match in OCP that has attracted an attendance over 12,000??

[Bord na Mona man]

@BnaMMan

God forbid we would have a capacity crowd! Besides both tmes you speak about were held at neutral venus so your argument is irrelevant. Has there ever been one hurling match in OCP that has attracted an attendance over 12,000??

Hmmm, a capacity crowd, or actually locking punters out?

If the neutral venue argument is irrelevant, then explain why more people would travel from Galway and Offaly over to Portlaoise, and less people would travel the much shorter distance to Birr? That doesn't add up. Are you suggesting that people are more likely to go to a match when the drive is made longer?

[bracknaghboy]

Lads are throwing out figures of 12 and 13,000 as a potential capacity for Birr when all works complete. I'd have serious doubts that a safety officer would pass Birr for anywhere near that figure. Around 8,000 seems more realistic although thats just my opinion. I've never seen the attraction of packing people like sardines onto terraces especially when kids are with you. I'd rather be in a crowd of 7,000 in OCP than 7,000 in Birr. Look there are some very differing views on this touchy subject and the vast majority of opinions are genuine from supporters throughout the county. Is there a right or wrong answer to this? Probably not and its going to extremely difficult to satisfy both sides. What worries me is that this will drag on and on and a worst case scenario would be situation where players would go on strike over this, something like that would be the the last thing we need at this stage of the teams development. The county board have released a statement on the infamous 'lockout' from 3 weeks ago but I can only find bit and pieces of it on the net. Anyone have the full text?

[joe bloggs]

Lads are throwing out figures of 12 and 13,000 as a potential capacity for Birr when all works complete. I'd have serious doubts that a safety officer would pass Birr for anywhere near that figure. Around 8,000 seems more realistic although thats just my opinion. ?

Have you been in Birr lately? As stated here already, the terrace opposite the stand is complete and the town end is ready to be finished and this will easily bring capacity over 10k and more. Propper stepped exits have been put in place from the terrace obviously with safety regulations in mind.

Other lads here talking about the pitch must not have visited it over the winter, I for one who was on it a couple of times was well impressed with it

[Plain of the Herbs]

I guess I'd be one of those. Bear in mind that January, February, March and April were relatively dry months. Granted May was wet and June has seen regular showers. The first serious test of the surface would really only have come this week in my opinion.

Other lads here talking about the pitch must not have visited it over the winter, I for one who was on it a couple of times was well impressed with it

[backofthenet]

@BnaMMan

God forbid we would have a capacity crowd! Besides both tmes you speak about were held at neutral venus so your argument is irrelevant. Has there ever been one hurling match in OCP that has attracted an attendance over 12,000??

Hmmm, a capacity crowd, or actually locking punters out?

If the neutral venue argument is irrelevant, then explain why more people would travel from Galway and Offaly over to Portlaoise, and less people would travel the much shorter distance to Birr? That doesn't add up. Are you suggesting that people are more likely to go to a match when the drive is made longer?

No but if you asked me if id rather a half capacity crowd or a ticketed affair where some cant actually get into the game I know which id choose.

The neutral argument is irrelevant because the argument is between Birr and Tullamore, if capacity is an issue you need to compare like with like. If the Cork Offaly or Offaly Limerick qualifiers of a few years ago attracted over 12k to OCP then you would have a valid point, they didnt so its not. Simples.

On your point about Portlaoise, there would be a significant number of offaly hurling supporters who would feel as much at home in Portlaoise as in OCP, this is borne out by the amount of supporters attracted to the last two offaly games in that stadia.

[Bord na Mona man]

The neutral argument is irrelevant because the argument is between Birr and Tullamore, if capacity is an issue you need to compare like with like. If the Cork Offaly or Offaly Limerick qualifiers of a few years ago attracted over 12k to OCP then you would have a valid point, they didnt so its not. Simples.

I gave you example of a game that attracted more than the Birr capacity where both sets of supporters had to travel a reasonable distance to get to.
Bringing the game close to both sets of supporters would have increased demand (not decreased it).
Birr wouldn't have held the crowd, therefore isn't (and won't be) fit for big championship clashes.
Tullamore will be getting the nod for home games of this nature, simple as.

[Lone Shark]

LS - It is completely misleading to suggest that the vast bulk of Offaly hurling matches are currently played in OCP nor would they ever be in Birr either. As for the cost of training, only around 20% of training sessions are actually held in OCP, something that can continue on into the future anyway. The figure of 1.1 million is relevant as it is hard expenditure. And one figure that we actually have under our control is the 15% figure that we ourselves grant to grounds that facilitate games. If this figure is too high and unaffordable then it should be changed but it certainly should not be there as a deterrent from playing matches in areas that would be of benefit to our games.

I never said that the vast bulk of games was. I took a handful of games that would be typical of the kind of fixtures that would get moved if the notional home of Offaly hurling was relocated to Birr. I'm well aware that for group games and the like, both Birr and OCP would be used on a regular basis.

I agree too that the unaffordability of ground rent SHOULD not be a factor, but the sad fact is that if we don't balance the books, there's nothing else to be done. Again I say that if Birr GAA club would come out and say that they will make the ground available at a revenue-neutral rate to the Offaly county board, then this argument is dead in the water, and if, as I've been assured, they are in a solid financial position, then there is no reason not to do so if they believe as passionately in this as the people on here. Aside from this, the argument has often been put forward that more people would go to games if they were played in Birr. Let Birr GAA club take their rent from these extra punters only and then they still should do fine.

Can you explain where you got your figures from for the NHL as I believe there is a different system in place for allocating gate receipts that I am not familiar with?

My understanding of this is that there is a different system, but it works out broadly similar. I stand to be corrected though. I know there is a degree of centralisation here, but I still think the ground rent is similar - I thought the difference was in the remainder.

As for the condition of the pitch – the pitch is in excellent condition. If there is a problem with drainage in bad weather it will be evident long before the dramatic scenario that you so colourfully paint. Bad weather is one thing we can depend on.

No question. However the issue of relocating the headline hurling fixtures in the county should not come up until this has been proven, as far as I'm concerned.

I am confused when on the one hand you go to great lengths explaining the unaffordable costs incurred by moving matches out of Tullamore yet on the other you are in favour of semi-finals and even NFL games being played in Birr. I guess you just haven’t made your mind up as to what is best quite yet.

No, despite what I suspect you may think of me, I actually do believe that the greater good of Offaly GAA would be best served by spreading all games around. My core belief is that all Offaly games belong to all Offaly people. I think that football in Birr deserves a boost because God knows the club itself can quite often be it's own worst enemy, while I think that Offaly hurling can never be competitive without North Offaly playing a part, and those areas need the boost much more than South Offaly, which will always put hurling first.

Only two players signed the 'famous' letter. Brian Carroll was signing as the player’s rep. and the other was Shane Dooley. The player’s rep’s signature would carry the most weight to me, regardless of whether or not the individual was too pushed either way, he was signing on behalf of the players. I’m not sure how much more evidence you need. Perhaps Joe Bergin in the Indo saying that the players wanted to return to Birr as it is their home might help satisfy you.

There's only so much I can put up on here, and I'm not in the business of ignoring the views of players, however there's more to this than meets the eye. Even if the signatures were genuine, it's quite possible that the signing was motivated by grievances at the other perceived OCP issues rather than a real desire to relocate. All I'm saying here is that there are individual players who prefer O'Connor Park, just as I'm sure there are several who prefer Birr. There are more still who have no wish to get involved or take sides, some of which might surprise you. By no means is this a case of "The players want...."

Did the minor management actually claim that the player’s would be more familiar with Birr? Did you see a copy of the letter or are you getting your wires crossed like POTH earlier? It is not relevant to the issue at hand but I’m curious to know.

Sadly, yes they did. I agree it's not relevant, but for me it cheapens the whole argument for going back to Birr when you have people trying stupid stuff like this. If you were confident in your case, then you wouldn't feel the need to go down this road.

As for the atmosphere, it’s not a point that I made but while I’m at it – It’s not a case of simply comparing capacities to come up with how far you are from the field or the atmosphere created. I always get the impression of being a lot nearer to the pitch from the stand in Birr. I don’t know the figure off hand but I’d be confident that there is a lot less seating in Birr and as a result, due to terracing, the crowd would be nearer to the field and also terraces create a better atmosphere.

I'm loathe to comment too much on this aspect until I attend a big game in the new St Brendan's Park, however all I'll say is this - that in terms of noise, any stadium engineer will tell you that people in a stand generate noise and atmosphere much better than people scattered on a terrace. Unless a terrace is tightly packed, it doesn't grow a life of it's own the same way. It can be a lovely way to watch a game surely, but not if atmosphere is your criterion.

The neutral argument is irrelevant because the argument is between Birr and Tullamore, if capacity is an issue you need to compare like with like. If the Cork Offaly or Offaly Limerick qualifiers of a few years ago attracted over 12k to OCP then you would have a valid point, they didnt so its not. Simples.

I gave you example of a game that attracted more than the Birr capacity where both sets of supporters had to travel a reasonable distance to get to.
Bringing the game close to both sets of supporters would have increased demand (not decreased it).
Birr wouldn't have held the crowd, therefore isn't (and won't be) fit for big championship clashes.
Tullamore will be getting the nod for home games of this nature, simple as.

Part of the agreement with Galway coming into Leinster is that there would be no games in Galway - which is up for renewal this year, and everyone is pretty confident that Galway (and Antrim) will get some home games in the coming years. I'd be surprised if Offaly didn't look for a home and away arrangement with Galway - indeed it would be stupid if we didn't - in which case Leinster championship games against Galway in Offaly become a real prospect. Our next Leinster championship game against Wexford will also be in Offaly. I suspect that our next game against Dublin may also be, but I'm not sure. These are all big games that offer a real prospect of a 15k + crowd, particularly if it's a semi final as opposed to a final. Argue for Birr if you want, but there is no way that a game like this will be played there - it just won't. That bit is not up for debate, it's just how it will be.

Lads are throwing out figures of 12 and 13,000 as a potential capacity for Birr when all works complete.

Just to throw some extra light on the issue, can anyone confirm that 12,000 has been approved by health and safety officers, or is this like back in the day when Birr said they had 5,000 capacity and the H&S people said no, you can have 1700?

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Fixture - estimated attendance - lost revenue for holding it in Birr

Offaly SHC final - 7000 - €6000
Offaly SHC Semis - 3000 - €4500
2 * Offaly SHC Quarters (let's say one double header in St B's Park as opposed to Tullamore) - 1500 - €2000
4 * NHL home games - Combined 5000 @ €15 - €11250
MHC vs Westmeath - 1000 - €1500

There's €25,250 in that little pot, not to mention costs for training etc, Walsh Cup, Intermediate finals, Under 21 finals, and all the other games that could fall into the mix. Now it's all very well to argue that this is a tiny share of the pot, but it's still not money that can be thrown away.

The above figures are useless as they are entirely predicated on the assumption that the attendance's for matches in Birr and Tullamore would be the same. Anyone with even a modicum of sense would know holding games in Birr would result in an increase in crowd numbers with an attending increase in revenue for the County Board even after Birr's cut is subtracted.

Now given the cost issue is apparently so central to the argument of Birr .v. Tullamore why is this incorrect assumption made time and and time again? Nobody has addressed the fact, or is willing to, that Birr would probably result in more income for the County Board. Why is this so? Again and again we hear that Tullamore yet with no reason why. The creation of this false 'cost argument' over the last few weeks without any decent reason for it is baffling and slightly worrying.

To put it simply: Birr could be cheaper.

[Lone Shark]

The above figures are useless as they are entirely predicated on the assumption that the attendance's for matches in Birr and Tullamore would be the same. Anyone with even a modicum of sense would know holding games in Birr would result in an increase in crowd numbers with an attending increase in revenue for the County Board even after Birr's cut is subtracted.

Now given the cost issue is apparently so central to the argument of Birr .v. Tullamore why is this incorrect assumption made time and and time again? Nobody has addressed the fact, or is willing to, that Birr would probably result in more income for the County Board. Why is this so? Again and again we hear that Tullamore yet with no reason why. The creation of this false 'cost argument' over the last few weeks without any decent reason for it is baffling and slightly worrying.

To put it simply: Birr could be cheaper.

Could Birr be cheaper? Quite possibly.

However "Anyone with even a modicum of sense would know...." I can't have. Attendances in Birr for a lot of these type games were very unspectacular too. I can remember being at several Minor Hurling championship games in Birr when 500 would have been the maximum attendance. Likewise league matches that should have drawn decent crowds. I'd like to see comparative numbers before agreeing with a statement like that.

[Buck Face]

by Lone Shark on Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:31 pm
This is not about the county final, alone. This is about the vast bulk of Offaly hurling matches

by Lone Shark on Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:54 am
I never said that the vast bulk of games was.

You are not making this easy for me. It WAS misleading to state that it was about the vast bulk of Offaly hurling matches but you have, in your own way, retracted it so let's move onto the issues at hand -

Until you or whoever else can come up with something that shows that the move to OCP was intended to be long term and not the temporary move to facilitate developments at St Brendan's Park that it was understood to be, agreed in good faith and very importantly, due the the Frank Murphy-esque trickery currently being applied, put in writing then you should refrain from using words like 'notional' or 'relocating' as they are both misleading and unhelpful to the ensuing debate with regard to 'Permanently moving Offaly hurling to OCP'.

When you say that this argument would be dead in the water if Birr came out and said they would facilitate the move at a revenue neutral rate it is fair to assume that you would agree that this boils down to money and money alone. You should then stop clouding the issue with red herrings over pitch condition, atmosphere and capacity etc as I believe that you have enough head on your shoulders to realise that these issues are all surmountable. Ones that I will continue to freely debate even if they are not 'the real issue' at hand.

However, it is unrealistic to suggest or expect Birr GAA, especially in these harsh economic times regardless of their present financial condition, to refuse to take a monetary reward put in place by Offaly GAA at a rate that they accept as fair and reasonable for facilitating our games. If the rate is too high and unaffordable then change it, simple. I'm astounded that you would expect and call on one club to hand back money when other clubs around the county benefit, rightly in my opinion, from facilitating games and training etc. Do you expect them to host NFL games, as is your wish, at a revenue-neutral rate too? Keep it real.

Your suggestion of waiting a winter to see if the pitch copes with the conditions is ridiculous. If we have a dry winter will you suggest waiting another year? Anyway, in order to allay your concerns you should note that it rained twice as much in Jul, Aug and Sept last year than in the first 3 months of the year. So can you drop the 'let's wait a winter and see' bit? The drainage either works or it doesn't and from what I have seen so far it is working very well.

As for the players wanting SBP to retain its status, for sure on a panel of players there are going to be differing opinions but the most recent thing we have to go on is a letter with the captains and also the player’s representative’s names attached to it. I have nothing else to go on only hearsay. Unfortunately there is no shortage of that doing the rounds in Offaly GAA circles in recent years and above all else it is something that needs to be eradicated from our county and it is certainly not something I partake in. I also trust Joe Bergin’s comments in the indo were made in earnest.

If you believe that the letter from the minor team claiming the players were more familiar with Birr cheapens the whole argument then I cannot let it go. Please post the relevant quote so we can firmly put this one to bed. I sincerely hope you are going on more than what was it the recent statement from the county board or, dare I say it, hearsay.

As for the atmosphere - terraces and closeness to the pitch help to create it. Sporting organisations around the world have gone to great length trying to design seated stadiums that can replace the atmosphere lost by the removal of terracing (like the washboard effect designed in Wembley for example) and the distancing of people from the pitch. If you filled the stand in OCP (and I love OCP by the way) and then moved those people to SBP there is no doubt as to where you’d have the best atmosphere. Or do you think Dublin people just have very loud voices?

It’s time for the people of Offaly to pull together on this. From what I can see the only credible reason to consider permanently moving hurling to OCP would be if there was a serious money issue. So far I have yet to see anything to tell me that with a little tweak here and a little tweak there that the books cannot be balanced. Unfortunately I think many people, without any logical reason, just don’t want to concede on the re-establishment of hurling in Birr.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

However "Anyone with even a modicum of sense would know...." I can't have. Attendances in Birr for a lot of these type games were very unspectacular too. I can remember being at several Minor Hurling championship games in Birr when 500 would have been the maximum attendance. Likewise league matches that should have drawn decent crowds. I'd like to see comparative numbers before agreeing with a statement like that.

Thats a disappointingly flimsy argument.
Picking out some random low attendance game in Birr while ignoring both the many well attended club and county games in the venue and also the dismally attended fixtures in Tullamore.
500 at some game in Birr once upon a time? I have no reason to doubt you so lets take it be true, it doesn't matter anyway. If there was 500 in Birr there would have been 100 in Tullamore. Simple.

Let everyone be clear, the argument is not the total number of paying patrons in Birr but rather would there be the 15% more in Birr than in Tullamore necessary to generate increased revenue for the County Board.
Anybody who thinks a mere 15% more people wouldn't attend Birr when compared to Tullamore is borderline delusional. Can anybody really say that, for example, where Tullamore might have attracted 500 to an Offaly game, that at a mere 75 extra wouldn't have attended in Birr? The continued ignorance of this unbelievably high odds probability by so many is incredible.

As for ''Birr could be cheaper''. I felt it the prudent and sensible thing to say. I wouldn't be so brazen as to label it a certainty, no matter how likely an occurrence it may be. There are few absolutes in life. Also, I was very wary not to appear as foolish as those who blindly claim that ''Tullamore will/would be cheaper'' without out any argument.

There are other merits to keeping the games in Tullamore (which you have advocated well LS), as there are to moving them to Birr. People will differ over these, as is natural and to be welcomed.
What I will not tolerate however is the continued peddling of the myth of Tullamore as the undoubtably cheaper option in these tough recessionary times when even the slightest, simple, realistic analysis of the situation would reveal the opposite to be true.

Birr could, and probably would, be cheaper.

[beirut]

Just to be safe, let`s bring all the matches to Croke Park!!

[Lone Shark]

Despite the fact that personally I am somewhat neutral on the whole issue of where the games are played, I seem to have somehow been backed into Tullamore's corner. Since I have no wish to do that, and since the debate has finally been conducted on sensible, logical grounds, I'm happy to concede that the Birr side seem to have a solid case, to the point that I'm tying myself in knots in an attempt to debate something without having the ability to say everything that I'd like to say.

My final point is merely this:

Until you or whoever else can come up with something that shows that the move to OCP was intended to be long term and not the temporary move to facilitate developments at St Brendan's Park that it was understood to be, agreed in good faith and very importantly, due the the Frank Murphy-esque trickery currently being applied, put in writing then you should refrain from using words like 'notional' or 'relocating' as they are both misleading and unhelpful to the ensuing debate with regard to 'Permanently moving Offaly hurling to OCP'.

Just to be clear here, I have no idea where we would end up hurling if we were to decide by examining rules and minutes in detail. I don't care either. We have two very decent alternatives, and as far as I'm concerned, the decision should be taken as to which of those two alternatives is the better one. If the answer to that question is Birr, then Birr should put that case forward, and I'd say the same if the case for Tullamore was being hidden behind a whole load of regulation.

I wasn't trying to take a shot at Birr, merely saying that we should decide what we want and what suits best, not go digging into a whole load of minutes and motions to make our decision for us.

When you say that this argument would be dead in the water if Birr came out and said they would facilitate the move at a revenue neutral rate it is fair to assume that you would agree that this boils down to money and money alone. You should then stop clouding the issue with red herrings over pitch condition, atmosphere and capacity etc as I believe that you have enough head on your shoulders to realise that these issues are all surmountable. Ones that I will continue to freely debate even if they are not 'the real issue' at hand.

However, it is unrealistic to suggest or expect Birr GAA, especially in these harsh economic times regardless of their present financial condition, to refuse to take a monetary reward put in place by Offaly GAA at a rate that they accept as fair and reasonable for facilitating our games. If the rate is too high and unaffordable then change it, simple. I'm astounded that you would expect and call on one club to hand back money when other clubs around the county benefit, rightly in my opinion, from facilitating games and training etc. Do you expect them to host NFL games, as is your wish, at a revenue-neutral rate too? Keep it real.

I am not saying that it is money and money alone. I am saying this - we are broke as a county, and saddled with a large debt. We're not as badly off as some counties, but we're not in a good position either. We cannot continue to run our affairs at nearly a hundred grand overbroke every year - it's simply not realistic.

Neither am I saying that if there's a difference of a hundred euro here and there, it should still be the money that decides, but when there is potentially a significant difference, that cannot be ignored. We need to balance our books next year, and unfortunate as it may sound, that is a primary concern.

Once we have addressed that, then, and only then in my opinion, do the other factors come into play. Then we can debate about what the players and management want, what's best for our games from a promotional point of view, and what will maximise our advantage on the field.

The reason I say that Birr should volunteer to make sure the Offaly county board is out of pocket is to take away the notion that Birr want these games, not for hurling reasons at all, but for revenue. If, as many people on this board think is a stone cold certainty, that more people will attend games in Birr - then Birr GAA club should still benefit. My point is that if I'm Andy Gallagher, St Brendan's Park is a facility that I have to pay for, when I have a perfectly good alternative available for free. If Birr are essentially trying to market St Brendans Park to Offaly GAA, then they should do a hell of a lot better job of selling the benefits that digging up old minutes.

Your suggestion of waiting a winter to see if the pitch copes with the conditions is ridiculous. If we have a dry winter will you suggest waiting another year? Anyway, in order to allay your concerns you should note that it rained twice as much in Jul, Aug and Sept last year than in the first 3 months of the year. So can you drop the 'let's wait a winter and see' bit? The drainage either works or it doesn't and from what I have seen so far it is working very well.

We all know it's not about overall rainfall, it's about the ability to handle a lot of rain in a very short space of time. I appreciate that I live in Galway so I don't have the option of just dropping in to see how it's getting on with weather like that of today, however I don't think it's unreasonable to just see games fulfilled on the ground at any time when other club pitches are closed. When I see that, even if it's only a junior B game, that'll do me and I suspect it'll do most people as well. I'm not talking about a winter or anything of the sort. One day will do me.

As for the players wanting SBP to retain its status, for sure on a panel of players there are going to be differing opinions but the most recent thing we have to go on is a letter with the captains and also the player’s representative’s names attached to it. I have nothing else to go on only hearsay. Unfortunately there is no shortage of that doing the rounds in Offaly GAA circles in recent years and above all else it is something that needs to be eradicated from our county and it is certainly not something I partake in. I also trust Joe Bergin’s comments in the indo were made in earnest.

If you believe that the letter from the minor team claiming the players were more familiar with Birr cheapens the whole argument then I cannot let it go. Please post the relevant quote so we can firmly put this one to bed. I sincerely hope you are going on more than what was it the recent statement from the county board or, dare I say it, hearsay.

I'm not in a position to say anything here, so fair enough. I appreciate your point of view here.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

This debate isn't right at all......I thought Lone Shark was supposed to be anti-Tullamore?
Is nothing sacred anymore?