Joe hits out at County Board

[uibhfaillian]

Where do I harp back to past glories?? Where are we reluctant to move with the times?? We are looking at this from a purely practical point of view where is the best place for Offaly to play in 2011 and beyond, and that is undoubtedly Birr. I think there is no one under any illusions as to the state of hurling in Offaly. Yes I am suggesting that there would be as big a crowd in Portlaoise as would be in Tullamore for a championship game. We are constantly on about next time well have them in OConnor Park, There is no added benefit to this, Offaly are as at home in Port Laoise and Thurles as they are in OCP. Now if you had them in Birr that would be a different story.

People do travel nearly an hour. My own club Coolderry, if I was to get in my car in the morning to drive to Tullamore I would estimate 50 minutes to an hour as would quite a few of the clubs.

We love to think that Sheedy or Cody have went and re invented the wheel, this is not the case, players are fitter and faster now, the hurling ball is ligher. All this has contributed to making the game a lot faster than 30 years ago. The game in essence is still the same. Offaly are losing because the players are simply not as good as Kilkenny or Tipperary. Anyone who has turned up at a juvenile game can see the standard slipping year after year. There is no quick fix, no quick change in style and tactic that will result in a different result. I think Offaly need to get fitter and get a better juvenile set up. Until that happens we wont improve no matter if we play similar tactics to KK or Tipp, we dont have Henry Shefflins or Lar Corbets waiting in the wings to come in.

I think that any observor of hurling would have to conclude that Cody's Kilkenny has raised the bar in the general standard of hurling and other counties have had to apply a much more professional approach to match them. Offaly hurling needs to widen it's pick as much as possible if it is to compete in the future. That means developing hurling throughout the county and not just in the traditional hurling areas. Running back to play all the games in Birr will not help develop the game throughout the country.

As you say there is no quick fix. They need to put the systems in place with kids now, and maybe in 10 or 20 years they'll be fielding competitive teams again. But if they're serious about it they need to develop hurling further in Tullamore, Edenderry, Daingean, Clara etc. and not just expect 80% of Offaly hurlers to come from in and around Birr. Offaly is a small county they need to be developing players in every corner of the county if they are to compete with the top sides again. The game has changed, the old approach of a handful of lads from 2 or 3 south Offaly clubs won't work in the future.

[joe bloggs]

It's either very disappointing or else very enlightening that this thread has turned into another Birr vs Tullamore debate. After all, the issue here was the chain of events that occurred on this particular Saturday, none of which had anything to do with the location of O'Connor Park. If O'Connor Park was located in the middle of Shinrone, then the hurling squad would still have reason for grievance if many of the incidents happened as was suggested in the initial letter.

Whether they did or not is of course another matter.

However all this talk of how the debt on O'Connor Park shouldn't matter is all very well, but it doesn't make it go away. The simple facts of the matter, as far as I can see, are these:

(1) We are up to our oxters in debt, as a county, paying for OCP.
(2) There is no realistic prospect of any significant upturn in our fortunes in either code, meaning that sponsorship and gate receipts are going to go down in the foreseeable future, not up.
(3) Training and playing in any other county ground would require some form of rent payment to be made, for games at least. I'm unclear as to how much, but the point is that it's very indulgent to pay a rent when a free and suitable alternative is available.
(4) O'Connor Park, like any playing surface, has to be minded because it needs to cater for a lot of games, not to mention to be available for matches like Galway vs Dublin last Saturday, which help pay the bills.
(5) An inclusive training facility, while highly desirable, would be expensive. When the revenues from Croke Park being let out to soccer and rugby were sent down the line, clubs were given the option of doing this with the money and my understanding is that they chose otherwise. As such, it's not unreasonable to say that the clubs don't consider this a high priority. Of course individuals differ, but that, I believe, is the position. As such county teams will continue to train in facilities such as OCP for the foreseeable future, or some other alternative - not a customised training facility.


Perhaps some people can clear up a few things for me here:

If the hurling people of Offaly, which of course includes Birr, are so keen to get big hurling games back into St Brendan's Park, surely then they would be happy to do so in such a way as to ensure that the decision is revenue-neutral for the county board? One can understand the scepticism of some people, wondering that possibly the issue here is that Birr club spent a lot of money on their facility and that maybe they want a return on that?

Now I would just like to clarify here that an official from Birr GAA club rang me on foot of my piece in the Offaly Indo last week, keen to allay my concerns on the issue of the robust nature of the playing surface. I was assured that it was well able for any weather conditions and would stand up to at least anything that OCP could, and while I haven't seen it firsthand, I have no reason to doubt this as the individual made a very solid case. In the course of the discussion, that person also said that this facility was planned and projected without any assumptions about hurling coming back to Birr, which I was delighted to hear. Understandably, they could not speak for the whole club and I did not ask them to do so, but my thought was that perhaps the best way around this could be for Birr GAA to offer the ground on a basis that would be revenue-neutral to the county. That way the county finals and league games could be played there, but the county board debt on O'Connor Park could still be serviced.


As an aside....

i have nothing again tullamore lovely field stand but its not like Birr for a hurling match i was brough up watching hurling in Birr or Banagher for that matter and its not the same
having the county final in tullamore there is something missing on county final day that you get when it is in Birr, you have to be from the hurling area to understand.

Cut out this divisive crap. The Offaly hurlers and Offaly footballers each, and independently, represent every corner of this county, and that's as it should be. I've long been of the view that there should be some league games in Birr, but there should be just as many football ones there as hurling.

Let's not forget here either that there are 43 clubs in Offaly, of which two (Shamrocks and Tullamore) are senior in both codes, and 25 that are either football only or football dominated, and only sixteen that are either hurling only or hurling to the fore. When it comes to things like the county board draw, the football clubs between them have to sell nearly twice as many tickets as the hurling ones. Yet, due to simple things like the greater use of sliothars, hurls, etc, the hurling teams cost more to run than the football ones - and that's before issues like "managerial expenses" are taken into account.

If people are of this view, that footballing Offaly just doesn't "get it" and therefore should be quiet on these matters, then go ahead and form a separate hurling board and find ye're own funding. Otherwise accept that financial reality can't just be ignored and realise that while we all like hurling games in Birr (it's actually closer to me too, even starting from a "football" base and I love games in there) it's just not feasible right now.

The "rent" to Birr would be 15% of the gate (up to a maximum of €6000 for a county final). Now some would say that this would be madness for the CB to pay over when they have their own ground, however i believe there may be false economies at work. Take for example the recent minor hurling game v Westmeath in Tullamore. I believe that the attendance was only around 250 people, now even giving Birr 15% you can be sure that a lot more than 250 would have turned up, thus earning more revenue for the CB. The same would apply for league fixtures next year. i firmly believe that leaving the games in OCP will cost them money, not save them money

[Lone Shark]

The "rent" to Birr would be 15% of the gate (up to a maximum of €6000 for a county final). Now some would say that this would be madness for the CB to pay over when they have their own ground, however i believe there may be false economies at work. Take for example the recent minor hurling game v Westmeath in Tullamore. I believe that the attendance was only around 250 people, now even giving Birr 15% you can be sure that a lot more than 250 would have turned up, thus earning more revenue for the CB. The same would apply for league fixtures next year. i firmly believe that leaving the games in OCP will cost them money, not save them money

The thinking there is solid and worthy of further exploration, much easier to get behind than some of the emotive nonsense with no actual basis in fact. Indeed it could be an interesting way of getting clubs to mobilise their members to get out and go to games. After all, if the South Offaly community is so energised by this, then there should be no problem getting 750-1000 people at bad home league games next year and maybe 3-4000 odd at a game against Antrim/Laois/Clare?

[GreatDayForTheParish]

The "rent" to Birr would be 15% of the gate (up to a maximum of €6000 for a county final). Now some would say that this would be madness for the CB to pay over when they have their own ground, however i believe there may be false economies at work. Take for example the recent minor hurling game v Westmeath in Tullamore. I believe that the attendance was only around 250 people, now even giving Birr 15% you can be sure that a lot more than 250 would have turned up, thus earning more revenue for the CB. The same would apply for league fixtures next year. i firmly believe that leaving the games in OCP will cost them money, not save them money

This is a key point for me.

It makes irrefutable sense. 15% seems tiny and easily coverable by the increased attendance's that would occur in Birr. The famous debt of O'Connor Park can be serviced by Birr. Easy.

[GreatDayForTheParish]

After all, if the South Offaly community is so energised by this, then there should be no problem getting 750-1000 people at bad home league games next year and maybe 3-4000 odd at a game against Antrim/Laois/Clare?

They certainly don't have to do that.
All they have to do is get, what 15-20% more than would turn up in Tullamore? Given that a man and his dog would go to Tullamore to see Offaly play Carlow and perhaps 1000 (max) to see them play Clare then that shouldn't be too difficult.

[Lone Shark]

After all, if the South Offaly community is so energised by this, then there should be no problem getting 750-1000 people at bad home league games next year and maybe 3-4000 odd at a game against Antrim/Laois/Clare?

They certainly don't have to do that.
All they have to do is get, what 15-20% more than would turn up in Tullamore? Given that a man and his dog would go to Tullamore to see Offaly play Carlow and perhaps 1000 (max) to see them play Clare then that shouldn't be too difficult.

I was being a little disingenuous here, in the sense that I'm well aware that the revenue from a lot of these games would be negligible. It was more in relation to the constant theme running through these threads that there is a large hurling support out there who is lurking in the shadows, waiting for games in St Brendan's Park to restart. If it turns out that games in Tullamore get paltry attendances and then games in Birr get paltry plus 20% of paltry along with that again, then I think we will have blown the "huge home advantage" argument out of the water.

[Efan]

If the revenue side of this whole discussion is not a factor (which for Division 2 hurling it certainly is) then park it.

For me the point has to be where we are better off playing and where our opponents will be less comfortable. I go to nearly all our league games in hurling and to as many football matches as I can justify driving up from the South East for. If you end up with 500 - 1000 odd people in Birr or Tullamore there is, in my opinion ZERO comparison in the atmosphere between the both of the grounds. Birr as a smaller stadium gets the crowd more involved in the game and is more atmospheric. OCP is a fine stadium but I think it needs to be at least half full (10k?) before there is real intensity. Playing League hurling games in Tullamore is a bit like playing Leinster hurling finals in Croke Park with 20k there.

If the money is not a factor then what’s wrong with bring teams into a place where they will be lest comfortable competing in. There are several counties who play at least some league games away from a larger ground in the county for probably that reason Monaghan, Armagh, Waterford, Dublin (cost a factor), Galway, Cork (lights a factor).

I would be interested in the opinion of a player who has played league matches in both venues as truly they will be the ones best placed to make a call on whether there is a competitive advantage in playing in one place over the other.

[backofthenet]

I think the last few posters have hit the nail on the head. There are far fewer arguments to keeping the games in OCP to bringing them back to birr. And those who say that bringing it back to birr affects the developement of hurling in offaly clearly dont have a clue. You dont "develop" the game by taking it away from the core support. To see north offaly hurling is great to see, but you need to keep south offaly strong also. Having hurling games in Tullamore will not make an under 12 from edenderry hurl any better, but it will put unneccessary traveling time, inconvenience and cost on the majority of players & supporters who would attend the game.

And on the whole birr vs tullamore attendance debate, someone brought up the point about the geographical spread of the population in offaly as if that had anything to do about it. Dublin a city of 1.5 million could only get 1000 - 2000 people to turn up at their senior hurling games in croke park a few years ago, its not population that counts, its interested population thats required, and that is for the most part based around birr. People are choosing with their feet, OCP is as one person stated "Croke Park on Leinster final day with 20,000 there" We built a large white elephant in the good times and it simply wasnt and isnt neccessary. Should all the players & supporters suffer because of it??

Also on the issue of the football clubs being in greater number than hurling clubs, yes that is the truth, but this is a hurling issue, not a football one. I wouldnt claim to know one foot from the other when it comes to football, I think if anyone has any interest in hurling in offaly then there should be no argument.

[Lone Shark]

Backofthenet, everything you say is true, but saying that the issue of O'Connor Park shouldn't be an issue doesn't mean that we can turn around and magically decree that we will ignore it.

Equally adding up the pros and cons of both sides is only a luxury we can afford if we have choices - there are those that would argue that we have none. I haven't seen enough of the numbers to know that this is or isn't true, but I know that they can't be wished away.


And as I've said before, you can't divorce hurling from football. By the nature of the sport and the requirement for more equipment etc, hurling already costs more than football to run, despite having less hurling clubs paying it's way. I don't think for one second it should be any different, but if you want to be funded by the county as a whole, you have to represent the county as a whole and make some sacrifices on that basis.

Bringing hurling to Birr has to make sense economically and in terms of developing the game - it's no good saying that one outweighs the other, we don't have the freedom to do that.

[southoffaly]

so there you go , the whole argument from the football crowd is about money for tullamore , while we are more concerned about what is best for hurling .
and boy jeasus do we need the local papers to get some proper journalists who know what they are talking about instead of the horseshite they are spouting . when they talk about hurling in edenderry and other football areas , i suggest they read that ger loughnane article again regarding that situation ( 1oo% acurate ) .you will never get senior county standard palyers from areas like that and if you had to , you know hurling is then finished in the county or any serious hurling county . its the same in football in any county if your traditional clubs are not strong your county team is in shite , well know and proven fact .
even in strong football counties for example no matter how much efford and training etc goes into hurling they can never reach above a certain standard .
i worked whith a guy ( captain of his local junior team at the time ) in tullamore about 4 years ago who told me his father ( on the offaly football 1982 panel ) stood up at a club meeting one time and said hurling in the club was in the way and should be got rid off , i have an uncle who trains under 14 team in north offaly when the hurling started to get good numbers he said the football side of the club made things very awkward for them . same in hurling clubs football is the poor relation . the argument these journalist use dont hold much water either ,seen as most of their argument is actually based on the money end of things they must be doing some sucking up to the county board boyos .

[Lone Shark]

Christ, you are certainly ready for your career in politics with that populist rubbish.


I've been on this board since it's inception and I'm long on the record as saying that the OCP project should not have been done to the scale it was done. The vast majority of people on here, both hurling and football, disagreed with me and since the GAA is a democracy, I was happy to accept that the project was right to go ahead, albeit with reservations about the financial and other implications.

Now that the ground has been completed, it's hardly unreasonable to say that it should be paid for, and that some hard choices may have to be made with that in mind. That's the nature of budgeting - you have to satisfy that criterion first, it's no good talking high and mighty about doing the right thing. If I'm the head of a family and I've got €100 for a week's food shopping, it might be the right thing for me to buy steak for one day, a nice white fish for another, loads of nuts and berries for the kids to snack on and a variety of healthy juices, but I can't afford that, so I do the best I can with what I can afford. The same thing is going on here. It might (I stress MIGHT) be the right thing to play all our games in Birr, but if we can't afford to do that, we can't afford to, and that's the end of it.

Secondly I'm not saying I've been talked around by the argument that hurling should be based in Birr even if money was not an issue, merely that again, I'm in the minority and I accept that in the GAA, the democratic way should apply.


And if you want to be the "proper journalist" then by all means step forward. Do like everyone else with such ambition and put proper, coherent views on here and debate them. If you think I'm not doing a good job, then take points from any of my pieces and debate them with me. Unlike any other journalist in Offaly, and indeed any other in the midlands as far as I know, here you have a forum to take your shots and you'll get a response - so make them count, and debate like a man, not just a wild accusation of "spouting horseshite".

As for your anecdotes about hurling and football fighting each other, that's as old as the GAA itself. The debate on here last year about Kinnitty pulling out of the Junior B football and the lack of support for a fine football team in Birr from hurling people within Birr GAA club are a constant reminder of that. I'm trying to advocate an end to all that nonsense, you seem to be using it as justification for hurling people to fight harder, despite the fact that as I've pointed out at length, football people subsidise hurling in this county. Again, it might be nice to ignore it from your side, but the rest of us have to live in the real world.

[TheManFromFerbane]

i suggest they read that ger loughnane article again regarding that situation ( 1oo% acurate ) .you will never get senior county standard palyers from areas like that and if you had to

Link to article?

[Lone Shark]

Just had a look at the betting for hurler of the year there - favourite right now is Noel McGrath, from Loughmore-Castleiney, long known as a football club and only won their first Tipp hurling title in the last couple of years.

I guess Tipp are at nothing if they have to be calling on the likes of him.

[theman]

Southoffaly just to clarify when you said no county hurlers came from edenderry.

Sean Og Farrell - Was on 1994 panel and was centre forward on 1993 u21 All Ireland losing team

Killian Farrell - Was on 1998 panel and played a few games in 1998 championship but didnt play the final

Finbarr Cullen - Was on the minor hurling team of the late 80's

Your typical of the hurling crowd. Unwilling to unite together as one. Im from a club in north offaly where there isnt a hurl in sight but i support the hurlers and footballers and go to as much matches in both codes as i can. I have seen first hand at hurling matches where supporters from the north where laughed and sneered at for going to watch the hurlers. We will never be successful if we all dont unite and be proud to support both codes!

[In the long grass]

SouthOffaly = Townman = Doesnt have a clue

(Back to hoganstand lads)