offaly 1-10 galway 1-24 NHL 20/02/2011

[Offaly2010]

We got a very bad beating on Sunday and I was just as disappointed as everyone else but Jaysus lads, as Lone Shark said.. 'tis only February!

[Long John]

Alot of heavy criticism here alrite. I think its a bit harsh on Paul Birmingham. This is a huge step up for him. In my opinion from seeing alot of him hurling, he's not an intercounty player and Joe Dooley and Brendan Kelly have to take the blame here not Birmingham. He went out to give it his best and it just didnt happen. I wouldnt slate the lad. Hes a decent club hurler and he has a bit of height which I think the management are looking for as we dont have enough tall men in the squad. He was up against one of Galways most experienced hurlers and living off poor enough supply as well. Of course he wasnt going to make any headway.

Shane Dooley I am sure didnt go out with a bad attitude either. He is very confident in himself and some people may find alot of fault with that when a lad doesnt perform then. Fair enough but I wouldnt say he wasnt trying hard. We all have brutal bad days. Also to be fair there is a huge expectation of him now since he was one of top scorer in the championship last year. I always felt the hype about him the last year has been a bit over the top. Hes an excellent free taker but I never thought of him as a real class hurler. Hes a good hurler, expect some good days from him but also expect some bad ones, he's not up there with the best hurlers in the country as some might think.

Who I would criticise is the management. I really dont think they have done enough to get the right squad in place and develop that squad. It feels like there filling gaps temporarily alot of the time and theres no big plan. I think joe is way out of his depth and I think the selectors really are useless. They dont know the club scene well enough, either that or they aint looking at it objectively.

[kingscounty]

if he had "man flu" why did he start him or play him at all.if the lad was sick fair enough leave him at home to recover.they would have played the same way if he wasnt there so would have been better to leave him at home.just like been injured!! i dont agree with lads giving out about certain players and naming players because thats not fair they were picked by the manager to play and if i was picked i wouldnt turn down the chance to wear the jersey.its a team and they should take the good and the bad comments as a team,no one player should be singled out.joe was a great player but i dont think he has what it takes to be a manager,we have to accept it for this year and hopefully he can prove me wrong.

[backofthenet]

As usual on this site we have a mixture of over reaction, good analysis and some people being over defensive. If some one wants to criticize a certain player fair enough.

1 person criticized Paul Bermingham and 5 people defended him, a debut where you get by double figures is a disaster no matter what way you look at it. However You have to be reasonable and fair, a second chance is needed when we have a more settled team, the most depressing thing I find with Offaly is we seem to either play all of our first fifteen or none of them! We need to play our strongest 15 and change one or two so that there is continuity. Now I know there were exceptional circumstances in this case but this is something that has been going on in offaly for a long time now.

On the league, we tend to get very hyper over loses in the league, Really at the end of the day if we beat wexford were safe for another year, whilst beating dublin would be a nice extra also it will not really get us anything.

I am relatively pleased at how the season has gone so far, although we lost to cork, we were missing some key players for the game and most of the new players held their own, we have a fairly solid back six come championship, midfield could be competitive with hayden, murphy, cordial & Hanniffy in the mix. As usual its our forward line that needs to be overhauled. It will be interesting to see if Joe Bergin can hold his own at centre forward come championship, Joe Brady was one of our best performers last year and gave good leadership to the forward line, we have good threats in carroll and dooley, If Bergin could step up a bit more, derek molloy come back from injury and perform like he was last year I think we have enough to beat dublin.

People have to remember Tipp dont mind losing to dublin, they know they are not a real threat come summer. I spoke with a tipp player last year and this year after the games, there was extremely heavy training done in the week before both games. We would do well to remember that we beat antrim last year at the start of the championship after being caught on the hop, dublin lost to them in July in a knock out game even after having the warning of the offaly antrim game

[bracknaghboy]

backofthenet I can see what you are saying about the league but.....the likes of Tipp don't worry about losing a few games as they know they can win All Irelands. Offaly on the other hand haven't beaten a top team (Kilkenny, Cork, Tipperary Galway or Waterford) in league or championship for years. Was Waterford in swamp like conditions in Birr in '07 the last win against these teams? Yes we can beat Limerick, Wexford, Antrim etc but can't get over the line against the top level sides. It must be hard for Joe Dooley to rally the team before a championship game when he has no wins to refer back to. A win against Kilkenny or Tipp in the league would do no end of good for this teams confidence. We seem to forget we haven't won a Leinster title in 16 years and have only contested 1 of the last 10 Leinster finals! So yes beating Wexford will probably keep us in Division 1 for another year but this team is at a stage where it has to 'push on' and theres no better way to 'push on' than getting a couple of good wins under the belt. For Offaly the league is important for Tipp it is less so.

[bula bula]

That's good enough for me anyway. People get the 'flu. Happens.
And there are far worse times for an inter-county GAA player to get the 'flu than February.
Cheers for the news, CG.

Not making excuses etc, etc, but Shane Dooley had a very bad flu last week. Simple as that. With the way some lads behave on this forum you'd wonder if lads like Shane will be willing to risk injuries or their health in future games for the good of their county with the abuse they get.

And if anyone is thinking of posting along the lines of: but Brian Whelahan scored 1-6 in the All-Ireland with the 'flu - Just don't.

He must have had the flu against Cork so because he was dire against them too. Should have been called ashore long before he was. I am also unsure of the decision to award him the captains armband. Whether this is too much responsibilty for him and is affecting his game is anyones guess but I would prefer if it were someone else and leave Shane to his game and knocking over the frees. Really hope he gets his form back soon and with Bergin finally beginning to show why he is rated so highly then the forward line could start to have a solid look about it. BTW, Brian Whelahan he aint. Only one of him unfortunately.

[Lone Shark]

With regards to the league generally, I think Offaly more than most have found out to our cost that hurling in division two is hugely detrimental. The occasional game against Clare, Antrim or Carlow would be grand but other than that players get away with bad habits which will get found out in the top flight.

It hurt Offaly badly when we were down there, Wexford went badly downhill when they were down there and Clare will start to suffer from it now. I wouldn't get carried away with one bad day last Sunday, but there's a big gap between that and saying that the league doesn't matter - I wouldn't subscribe to that view either.

[townman]

i think goes back to the point i made last week and was shot down in flames over it.
offaly don't have the hurlers at the moment to dine at the top table and it showed big
time on sunday.

with the lost of 6 or 7 players it was a big asked to beat Galway last weekend even year's ago we got
it hard to stay in the top division without are best players or if the Birr player's were not with the county
because they were held up with the club all ireland.

As for Paul Bermingham i don't think it was right some things that were wrote about him he was out to do his best
the man i would lay the blame for it was Joe Dooley for putting young Bermingham in on a hurler like John Lee for start.
also why did he take Kevin Brady off as he was hurling alright.

why wasn't Shane Kelly brought on as he line out at midfield the last day against Cork, where has Gary Connelly and Tommy Carroll
gone.

[old yellar]

Lone shark, I normally find most of your comments to my liking but I strongly disagree with those about division 2 and how it brings down teams. Firstly I think that's the colm bonnar excuse of late too. Dont go there! Why are wexford facing a tough time? Because they are poor. Why are teams down there? Because that is the system and that is where their results have sent them. Nothing else. If they are good enough to be in div 1 they would be. Secondly, Antrim who failed to even figure in the last 2 division 2 finals, beat Dublin last year in championship. They have a sizeable population and club advantage on Antrim and they have they advantage of div 1 status. Div2 consists of 6/7 games. Now over 2 years that amounts to v little hurling. Most counties will play a host of games with every team irregardlrss of division. These league games do not give lads bad habits- these are not 12 year olds that we are on about but virtual professionals. Do you think that all these teams do is play those league games? Where do they get the bad habits etc? Well what about club scenes, development squads etc. Not div 2. How come we in Carlow have improved to beat Wexford last year and run clare to a point? Because of a few league games? They help but it's down to hard work on the ground and players. Most managers say, ah the league will see us blood a few lads and we are training hard through it so we peak at the right time etc. But this all changes when the get relegated. This talk all turns to oh this doesn't benefit hurling in our county, we dont deserve to be here etc.. Rem the 2 league finalists of last year weren't those in the all Ireland... Lack of talent or poor habits come down to other things. Most lads are 19 or older who break onto the county scene, so like I said before they are the product of a system in their county.

[bazza]

Have to disagree with you Old Yellar. Players play within within their comfort zone against Division 2 teams. It's simple enough. If Offaly are beating a team like Kerry by ten points at home, which was happening in games when Offaly were in Division 2, they are going to sit back and relax towards the end of a game. It's got nothing to do with club scenes, development squads, etc, it's just natural. You might say why don't they drive on and win by twenty points but there is only so long a team can be motivated to win games by huge margins.

Clearly, the more favourable option for Offaly in league matches as preparation for the championship is to be involved in tight contests with ten minutes remaining in a game where management can really learn about the mental strength of players. They learn nothing watching lads show boat hammering teams.

Also, I'd have to say I would disagree with your belief that bad habits aren't created in the lower divisions. It's not so much that bad habits are created but that the matches themselves are bad preparation. I mean is it any good seeing Shane Dooley or Brian Carroll waltzing around popping over points when they should be getting used to developing a plan in the forward line to counteract the Kilkenny backline

[old yellar]

But the facts don't prove this! It's even
More obvious in football, Roscommon div4 and Connacht champions, Meath Leinster champs and div2, Louth runners up div3.. Now as for the hurling, well you mentioned showboating. I can only give examples related to my experience- not harping on about my own county! But last year we beat Wexford - the were hammered in champ and are struggling in div1. We ran clare close, the remain a div 2 side. We played Offaly in Walsh cup shield, draw game- Offaly I think had 13 of the team that started v cork. Now I know ur going to say it's a Walsh cup shield, lads minds were elsewhere etc. But how come the top teams would simple hammer a poorer team if the had the chance? Kk don't showboat etc. Not done. If this is the case with your hurlers then they would need to work on their mental approach. It does work. I again point out the Antrim result of last year as showing that a good sound approach, hard work and good structures count.. On the bad habits thing, well I could tell you that the same lads currently on offalys senior team have had the same bad habits since the were u16s and minors. These haven't changed. Too many of them are predictable. Like I said before in a post, I was in the stand at the shield game, and virtually ever time you could tell what side a lad would turn, lads going down with one hand and missing a pick up more times than not - same thing they ve being doing since school! Simple habits that remain there, not the product of div 2.. Rem your minors/u21s are the seniors of tomorrow. They haven't had the "dreadful" div2 experience yet. So how can you equate how they compete? Lastly, ye are 2 games into a league campaign yet this idea of relegAtion has already started. Where's the faith???!

[old yellar]

Ps. Mental strength isn't only found out in tight contests. It's also about sticking to a plan and complete focus on what you want to achieve. On their way to so many all irelands Kk dished out done serious hammering. They didn't showboat and it didn't hamper them as they were so focused on their goal. That's mental strength also. If any team is good enough to beat a team by 20 pts, well, let them on. I again say it's down to mental approach. If ye lacking that, then it needs to be addressed.

[Lone Shark]

Okay, just to be clear on one thing here - if we end up hurling in division two in 2012, it will be because we deserve it, and you won't hear a peep from me along the lines of Bonnar (or indeed as Dooley would, if he stayed around) saying that the structure should be changed to accommodate Offaly. Eight is the logical size for the first division, and every county has to prove that they are worth a place in that eight.

However there is a difference between saying that we deserve to be in division one, and we are much better off in division one.

We've been through this, and while you do get some good games in division two, you also get some run abouts that are a waste of time. Players do come into the top flight under exposed. Every county needs that game against KK, Galway or Tipp to highlight what areas the team is falling down badly in so as to address it.

The second from last time we played in division two, Joe Brady scored about a dozen goals from full forward in the campaign - four of them against Kerry if I recall correctly. Come the championship, that tactic was exposed as no good. That's how it kills you.

With regards to the league generally, I think Offaly more than most have found out to our cost that hurling in division two is hugely detrimental. The occasional game against Clare, Antrim or Carlow would be grand but other than that players get away with bad habits which will get found out in the top flight.

You're doing the old debating trick of ignoring what I said and arguing against what I didn't say. I did not say, as you can see above, that games against some division two counties would be a waste of time - many of them wouldn't. However some would be, most notably Down, Kerry and probably Westmeath in their current form, and you also don't end up receiving the hammering that often really exposes you. I don't doubt that a league match against Carlow would be a good contest, but a league match against Kerry or Down almost certainly wouldn't.

By the way, some of your examples are badly chosen as well - you mention Roscommon in division four football. The first thing in the football is that whether you are in division one, two or three, you get good competitive games. Football is like that. Secondly, Roscommon are only down in division four this year, and they may get out of it on the first go. But even so, the effects will not be felt until the Connacht championship, it's nonsense to suggest that we'd have seen them already.

You forget we've been down in division four in football as well and we saw when we came out of it that we simply weren't ready. I refer you to 2-11 to 1-8 to Westmeath in O'Connor Park - possibly our worst Leinster championship result in twenty years, possibly more.

I'm aware that there is a cause and effect grey area when it comes to playing ball in lower divisions since you wouldn't be down there if you weren't poor to begin with, but I don't doubt for a minute that it compounds the damage. I remain of the belief that it's a perfectly fair system - except I'd prefer to see two up and two down in the hurling - but that doesn't mean that it still makes it a lot harder to improve.

[Lone Shark]

By the way, there is a difference between the problems that a county has, and the ideal environment in which to address them. I know we have problems with mental strength, with one sided hurlers and with a desperately underachieving underage structure not supplying the calibre of hurlers we need a lot of the time, however that still doesn't change the fact that whatever problems you have, it's easier fix them in division one than division two.

Saying otherwise is like saying that a mechanic will be better able to fix a banjaxed engine if he uses a less bright torch to examine it.

[old yellar]

"By the way, some of your examples are badly chosen as well - you mention Roscommon in division four football. The first thing in the football is that whether you are in division one, two or three, you get good competitive games. Football is like that. Secondly, Roscommon are only down in division four this year, and they may get out of it on the first go. But even so, the effects will not be felt until the Connacht championship, it's nonsense to suggest that we'd have seen them already."
Yes they ll get a great competitive game in ballyragget when the play Kk same as Leitrim got! They were relegated to division 4 and then claimed the Connaught title. Not bad..
"The second from last time we played in division two, Joe Brady scored about a dozen goals from full forward in the campaign - four of them against Kerry if I recall correctly. Come the championship, that tactic was exposed as no good. That's how it kills you."
He was played there last year if I recall too. After a season of div1 hurling..
On the hurling thing. How does being in div1/2 differ in how you prepare your future seniors ie minors/21s? How? Clare were in minor all Ireland this year and u21 2 years ago. Both when they were hovering either in div2 or on the way down to it. They saw a slip in their fortunes but decided to rebuild and refocus on their youth. It works.
Also I never said that div2 teams/games aren't competitive. Far from it.