Galway's win over Kilkenny - Good for Offaly hurling

[Bogman]

I was impressed with the way McIntyre made switches during or after the Kilkenny game & the first half of the Waterford game. He said himself that some of the switches were desperation stuff but some of them seemed to work for the rest of the campaign. Not saying they brought us up to Kilkenny standard but the team was definitely better-balanced at the end.

1. Rory Hanniffy to Centre Back - a case of Robbing Peter to Pay Paul but to add another saying Beggars Can't Be Choosers.
2. Gary Hanniffy to Midfield - Gary definitely plays better for Offaly at midfield than in the half forwards.
3. Aidan Hanrahan - played well for Offaly in every match and is showing good form for Lusmagh.
4. Paul Cleary - great to see him getting championship experience. I think he's more of a full back than a corner back but time will tell on that.

If McIntyre decides to stay on he can watch the club campaign and bring more players in.

[the Untouchable]

Lone Shark have you ever agreed with anyone else's opinions....cause you seem to have the opposite opinion to what everyone else says!!!
Like by your reckoning Offaly aren't anywhere near Kilkenny....But all the players are fine, the management are great and in truth nothing is wrong!!!
The reality is that there is some serious problems in Offaly hurling at the moment.
The team for one lack the physical size to match teams like Kilkenny, Clare, Waterford, cork, etc etc!!! You said that Tommy Walsh was excellent at midfield against Galway....well Tommy Walsh is brilliant where ever he plays....he was corner back last year & was man of the match, it doesn't mean put Cordial corner back!!!
The reason why Kilkenny could play Tommy walsh at midfield is because they have lots of big men on their half back line & half forward line & the other lad midfield won't be too small either.
Cordial on the other hand while he is an excellent hurler probably needs a big player beside him....and I reckon he'd be better used on the half forward line!!!
Your point about offaly being capable of winning a Leinster is fine, it might happen...but for it to happen won't we have to beat Kilkenny?? Or are we going to leave that up to Wexford again? Your right in saying that Offaly aren't that far behind the likes of wexford, Tipp, Clare & limerick...however none of these teams are unbeatable at the best of times....but there is a world of difference between teams like Cork, Kilkenny & even Waterford than any of the teams named above!!!
The point about the need for a big man on the edge of the square is well justified...lots of teams play a big man on the edge of the square to great effect....however the first thing about playing a big man on the edge of the square is that firstly he is capable of winning 50-50 ball....something that joe is incapable of doing & then secondly that the big lad is able to score when he gets the chance....again joe falls down on this point....like I've seen Brendan Murphy play full forward for Offaly a few times & he would cause all sorts of problems!!!
As for Ger Oakley, my problem with ger is not with his ability to run along side his man....its with the fact that Ger's defensive clearances are woeful, he never drives a ball 70 yards....it goes more like 30 yards....he also has no positional sense & doesn't command the full back line like he should!!
Finally I'm not blaming McIntyre for the mess that Ofaly hurling is in at the moment...but I will be intrigued to see what his plans are to be for next year!! I'm sure playing in Division 1 next year will benefit them greatly but maybe this year Offaly could look to take the league serious & maybe even try to win it cause at the moment Offaly seem happy to play second fiddle to these so called stronger teams....but as Kilkenny found out last sunday there is very little you can do against skillful, super fit & hungry young hurlers....thats what Galway had last sunday....lets hope Offaly have it 2006!!!

[doobane man]

I sit in silence and wonder!
The discussion on this topic has turned into a “Who’s the best Offaly Supporter?” type argument – the realist/pessimist (delete as appropriate) whose logical argument is deemed treacherous by the optimist/true faithful follower whose counter argument is emotionally charged.
The truth is that both sides of the argument have merit but like most stories there is at least a third side – the truth. The truth in this case is that last Sunday’s semi-final has absolutely no relevance when we next face Kilkenny. To argue that a roller-coaster that saw 9 goals and the potential for 3-4 more as well as the poorest defending and some magnificent point-taking seen for some time will have any impact on Offaly hurling – good or bad – beggars belief.
Kilkenny have, still, one of the finest panels in the country currently and that will not change in the foreseeable future – such has been the quality of their underage outfits recently. I would imagine that most county managers would still sooner face Galway than Kilkenny next week, if given such a choice. Certainly Offaly would, and with good reason.
Our standing in national senior hurling is quite low. On any given Sunday –or Saturday evening- we may put it up to Galway, Clare, Wexford, Waterford and the likes. However we are rightly behind all of them at the moment in Hurlings’ pecking order. Our defeats to Kilkenny, Clare, Wexford, Tipperary and Waterford in the championship over the past couple of years see to that!
The argument that feeling equal/superior to your opponent gives you an advantage is utter bullshit. You should not have an inferiority complex but a realistic assessment of your opponent’s strengths and weaknesses against your own and an action plan to overcome his apparent advantages i.e. where he is obviously stronger then don’t try to compete on a level playing pitch, have something up your sleeve (literally, if necessary) to swing the advantage back towards you.
In Offaly –Kilkenny games we’ve been in trouble in 2 key sectors for all of this decade and beyond. Corner-backs and midfielders with neither the physical attributes, nor battling skills to disguise it, to compete with their opposite numbers. Not since Hanamy retired have we had a quality corner back (didn’t Carter and Co. just love us) and its not today nor yesterday that we had to take our most accurate forward ever out to centre-field to overcome deficiencies there [the great JD]. What is most disappointing is that we have never managed to implement (maybe even design) a game plan to overcome these potential disadvantages.
I played a lot of football in my time – and have a few county medals to prove it. I am absolutely convinced that our problem in Offaly – and with football in places like Ferbane- is that our players don’t suffer from inferiority complexes but from a misguided superiority complex, based on the achievements of predecessors and bearing no relationship to current ability and attitude.
We believe the myths that Offaly hurlers are so skilful they win All Irelands without having to train, or that Ferbane is 5 points up on the like of Doon before the first whistle is blown.
Those teams had more skill and a better attitude than current teams. They built their own reputations, and they lived up to them. Now we are incapable of doing either.

[doobane man]

I sit in silence and wonder!
The discussion on this topic has turned into a “Who’s the best Offaly Supporter?” type argument – the realist/pessimist (delete as appropriate) whose logical argument is deemed treacherous by the optimist/true faithful follower whose counter argument is emotionally charged.
The truth is that both sides of the argument have merit but like most stories there is at least a third side – the truth. The truth in this case is that last Sunday’s semi-final has absolutely no relevance when we next face Kilkenny. To argue that a roller-coaster that saw 9 goals and the potential for 3-4 more as well as the poorest defending and some magnificent point-taking seen for some time will have any impact on Offaly hurling – good or bad – beggars belief.
Kilkenny have, still, one of the finest panels in the country currently and that will not change in the foreseeable future – such has been the quality of their underage outfits recently. I would imagine that most county managers would still sooner face Galway than Kilkenny next week, if given such a choice. Certainly Offaly would, and with good reason.
Our standing in national senior hurling is quite low. On any given Sunday –or Saturday evening- we may put it up to Galway, Clare, Wexford, Waterford and the likes. However we are rightly behind all of them at the moment in Hurlings’ pecking order. Our defeats to Kilkenny, Clare, Wexford, Tipperary and Waterford in the championship over the past couple of years see to that!
The argument that feeling equal/superior to your opponent gives you an advantage is utter bullshit. You should not have an inferiority complex but a realistic assessment of your opponent’s strengths and weaknesses against your own and an action plan to overcome his apparent advantages i.e. where he is obviously stronger then don’t try to compete on a level playing pitch, have something up your sleeve (literally, if necessary) to swing the advantage back towards you.
In Offaly –Kilkenny games we’ve been in trouble in 2 key sectors for all of this decade and beyond. Corner-backs and midfielders with neither the physical attributes, nor battling skills to disguise it, to compete with their opposite numbers. Not since Hanamy retired have we had a quality corner back (didn’t Carter and Co. just love us) and its not today nor yesterday that we had to take our most accurate forward ever out to centre-field to overcome deficiencies there [the great JD]. What is most disappointing is that we have never managed to implement (maybe even design) a game plan to overcome these potential disadvantages.
I played a lot of football in my time – and have a few county medals to prove it. I am absolutely convinced that our problem in Offaly – and with football in places like Ferbane- is that our players don’t suffer from inferiority complexes but from a misguided superiority complex, based on the achievements of predecessors and bearing no relationship to current ability and attitude.
We believe the myths that Offaly hurlers are so skilful they win All Irelands without having to train, or that Ferbane is 5 points up on the like of Doon before the first whistle is blown.
Those teams had more skill and a better attitude than current teams. They built their own reputations, and they lived up to them. Now we are incapable of doing either.

[Bord na Mona man]

I agree with Bogman's analysis of the team line up.
It is unfortunate that McIntyre had to use the championship in order to find his best team.
I believe the team has a better shape to it now.
I do think that other teams have cottoned on to Ger Oakley being weak under the high ball.
In the last 2 years, he has defended very well on the ground.
This year we conceded some goals and chances because of this. Even Antrim seemed to target this and dropped a lot of ball/frees on top of him.
I think Paul Cleary might be the long term prospect in this position.

Also Cassidy disappointed me against Kilkenny. He appeared to be one of the first players to stop trying.
Considering he has been on the scene since 1997, I would have hoped he would lead by example.

I was impressed with the way McIntyre made switches during or after the Kilkenny game & the first half of the Waterford game. He said himself that some of the switches were desperation stuff but some of them seemed to work for the rest of the campaign. Not saying they brought us up to Kilkenny standard but the team was definitely better-balanced at the end.

1. Rory Hanniffy to Centre Back - a case of Robbing Peter to Pay Paul but to add another saying Beggars Can't Be Choosers.
2. Gary Hanniffy to Midfield - Gary definitely plays better for Offaly at midfield than in the half forwards.
3. Aidan Hanrahan - played well for Offaly in every match and is showing good form for Lusmagh.
4. Paul Cleary - great to see him getting championship experience. I think he's more of a full back than a corner back but time will tell on that.

If McIntyre decides to stay on he can watch the club campaign and bring more players in.

[Lone Shark]

I think management is fine, I don't think the team is fine.

I think that further to Doobane man's point, we've bred this generation of "wristy" light hurlers, to the detriment of the spine of the team. Aggressive corner backs are something we lack, but in general as I've mentioned on other threads, aggression was something that quite often used to come from the Rynagh's players on Offaly teams. No Rynagh's representation - no aggression. I'm not saying just parachute in 4 Rynagh's lads who aren't up to the standard, but I think for Offaly hurling to really hit the heights again we are very dependant on the Banagher boys becoming a serious force again.

I don't criticise the team too much because I suspect that for all our flaws, we're still not far off fielding the bets fifteen hurlers in the county at any time. I just can't shake the nagging belief that those fifteen aren't up to the standard.

The modern game has changed, and I think that big midfielders are not really necessary - big ball winning half forwards are. Midfielders have become ball movers and scrappers. I think Diggy is fine at this - what we lack are half forwards who are good under a dropping ball and can take scores - invariably we have one or the other - usually the latter.

Cleary looks like a good full back in the making. Franks has not suddenly become a bad hurler. Rory looked very good at CB, Teehan looked well at home on the wing, and Hoctor has the size, even if he is woefully one sided. Diggy and Gary look like a good midfield combination, and a full forward line of Smurf, Hano and Carroll would be well handy. We're still a long way off Kilkenny because there are a lot of gaps still there - mostly 10-12. If the league can provide a few answers there (Lee? Molloy?) then maybe we could be on to something. Hence my synopsis that we are a long way off but not so far off that the gap is unbridgable.

[turk]

Hi Doobane man

I sit in silence and wonder!
The discussion on this topic has turned into a “Who’s the best Offaly Supporter?” type argument – the realist/pessimist (delete as appropriate) whose logical argument is deemed treacherous by the optimist/true faithful follower whose counter argument is emotionally charged.
The truth is that both sides of the argument have merit but like most stories there is at least a third side – the truth. The truth in this case is that last Sunday’s semi-final has absolutely no relevance when we next face Kilkenny. To argue that a roller-coaster that saw 9 goals and the potential for 3-4 more as well as the poorest defending and some magnificent point-taking seen for some time will have any impact on Offaly hurling – good or bad – beggars belief.

I'd still think myself that kilkenny's defeat on Sunday can be used as a positive tool in motivating the current squad next season.

Kilkenny have, still, one of the finest panels in the country currently and that will not change in the foreseeable future – such has been the quality of their underage outfits recently. I would imagine that most county managers would still sooner face Galway than Kilkenny next week, if given such a choice. Certainly Offaly would, and with good reason.
Our standing in national senior hurling is quite low. On any given Sunday –or Saturday evening- we may put it up to Galway, Clare, Wexford, Waterford and the likes. However we are rightly behind all of them at the moment in Hurlings’ pecking order. Our defeats to Kilkenny, Clare, Wexford, Tipperary and Waterford in the championship over the past couple of years see to that!

that's agreed!!

The argument that feeling equal/superior to your opponent gives you an advantage is utter bullshit.

I don't agree with that though. definitely feeling infeior to our opponents puts us at a disadvantage, which is the case we have now. Sunday's match can be used to make the squad feel less inferior to kilkenny. Obviously correct preparation and assessment of the opponents is invaluable, as you have pointed out. Consistently keeping a team on top of their game by management is clearly non-trivial.

You should not have an inferiority complex but a realistic assessment of your opponent’s strengths and weaknesses against your own and an action plan to overcome his apparent advantages i.e. where he is obviously stronger then don’t try to compete on a level playing pitch, have something up your sleeve (literally, if necessary) to swing the advantage back towards you.
In Offaly –Kilkenny games we’ve been in trouble in 2 key sectors for all of this decade and beyond. Corner-backs and midfielders with neither the physical attributes, nor battling skills to disguise it, to compete with their opposite numbers. Not since Hanamy retired have we had a quality corner back (didn’t Carter and Co. just love us) and its not today nor yesterday that we had to take our most accurate forward ever out to centre-field to overcome deficiencies there [the great JD]. What is most disappointing is that we have never managed to implement (maybe even design) a game plan to overcome these potential disadvantages.
I played a lot of football in my time – and have a few county medals to prove it. I am absolutely convinced that our problem in Offaly – and with football in places like Ferbane- is that our players don’t suffer from inferiority complexes but from a misguided superiority complex, based on the achievements of predecessors and bearing no relationship to current ability and attitude.
We believe the myths that Offaly hurlers are so skilful they win All Irelands without having to train, or that Ferbane is 5 points up on the like of Doon before the first whistle is blown.
Those teams had more skill and a better attitude than current teams. They built their own reputations, and they lived up to them. Now we are incapable of doing either.

i'd agree with you on that, and teams/players trading on the past have been and will be found out.

[azoffaly]

Lads, this argument is doing my head in. I actually don't think that the views are that diverse, but one thing that riles me is that Kilkenny are inherently better than us. Why? Why are lads that have won All Irelands with Birr worse than those with James Stephens?

Of course the mental side of the game means nothing if you don't prepare yourself physically and tactically before the games, but all things being equal, ie. You've trained hard, have picked the correct team, and are tactically aware, then Psychology plays a huge part.

In my opinion the players are there, and it's up to the management to ensure that the work is done, physically, mentally and tactically. If all that is done, then at the very least games between Kilkenny and Offaly will be a lot closer, and we will start winning games.

Regarding individual battles, it's true that very few lads are as good as a Henry Shefflin or Tommy Walsh, but in those cases you don't want a lad as good as them, you want a fella to stop them being as good.


Doobane man, do I know you? I must do.

[Lone Shark]

Lads, this argument is doing my head in. I actually don't think that the views are that diverse, but one thing that riles me is that Kilkenny are inherently better than us. Why? Why are lads that have won All Irelands with Birr worse than those with James Stephens?

By birth of course not - BUT

(1) At the moment the players they have just are better than ours. Call it good underage planning, luck of the draw or whatever, but their first fifteen is better than ours. The only thing we have is that theirs is quite old while ours is on the young side.

(2) Birr and James Stephens are much of a muchness. The difference is in the next best clubs. Our panel invariably has about 8 Birr lads on it - if I'm not mistaken they have Donncha Cody, Eoghan Larkin and Peter Barry from the Village - and Barry will be gone next year. The fact that their junior champions beat our intermediate champions in Moystown last autumn wouldn't encourage you either.


I'm not saying we can't do a lot to bridge that gap, and who cares if their third fifteen is way better than ours - but I just think our boys have a lot of development to do to get even close to the standard Kilkenny are at, and more than a few psychological tricks will be needed.

[azoffaly]

At the moment the players they have just are better than ours

Not all of them LS, and certainly not 31 points better, or even 8 points better. Maybe I am naive, but I think that in a skills contest our lads would have as much as most of the Kilkenny lads.

Where we lose out to Kilkenny at the moment is
1) Physically,
2) Aggression Levels
and
3) Mentally.

I believe all 3 of these can be addressed through hard work, tactical preparation and psychology. And Whatever about the first 2, there's no shortcut around them, The third one will get a boost the more 'other' sides, sides we know *we* can compete with, compete with and beat Kilkenny.

I'm not suggesting that we would beat Kilkenny if we decided in the morning that we were good enough to. If the other work has not been done then it would be pointless, but what I am saying, and believe is that if our lads work like trojans over the winter, get determined to win every ball and ALSO believe that they can win, then there's no reason why Kilkenny would not be in our sights.

It's a combination of all things, but when the work is done, what seperates teams at that level is undoubtedly hunger and belief.

[Treasurer]

We're certainly not 31 points worse than Kilkenny. Division Two was a huge problem for us this year. Against weaker opposition some players looked like they were good enough - they weren't, but we found out too late and in the worst possible way. We ended the championship at the point we should have been at before it began.

And I know you can't read too much into practice matches, but we did beat both Waterford and Galway this year. It's debatable how serious Waterford took their game, but Galway were well up for it and were bitterly disappointed to lose.

In the qualifiers, we gave Waterford a good fright, despite only getting into gear in the second half and I honestly don't think either ourselves or Clare got enough credit for a pretty decent game.

I'm looking forward to next year.

[doobane man]

My view is that Kilkenny is currently better than Offaly; not inherently better than Offaly, not 31 points better than Offaly but better than Offaly none-the-less.
For Offaly to beat Kilkenny at the moment we would need quite a few improbables to go our way
1. Kilkenny over-react to this defeat and replace Cody (whom I rate as superb, particularly in the way he has kept the panel fresh, individually and collectively/ remember it took 5-18 to beat them and if they had 3 minutes more…….)
2. McIntyre imposes a discipline that has been lacking to date. However the manner in which Cassidy and co. were dealt with may augur well for the future.
3. We unearth 2-3 players of inter-county calibre in the latter stages of the Offaly championship. Not very likely and I agree with Lone Shark that we are extremely close to our top 15 club players now wearing the county colours. If anything our difficulty currently is that our players are too skilful in some positions; what I’d give for a Tom Donoghue/Pat Fleury/Kevin Kinahan or a Brendan Birmingham/Brendan Kelly. Then the Brian Carrolls, the Brendan Murphys and the other lovely hurlers on the Offaly team would have the protection and support necessary to enable them display their array of talents.
4. We start next season where we finished (and started) in Portlaoise, not Croke Park and not Parnell Park
But it’s not all doom and gloom. We do possess some fine hurling talent and are closer than a year ago to fielding our best team. Rory at centre-back has been a revelation at times and Gary is much improved when forced into the thick of the action too.
But it’s hard to see what McIntyre can do to improve the situation to the extent that we are genuine All Ireland contenders- because when you talk about beating Kilkenny that’s the standard you’re at. He’s a genuinely ‘good’ guy with the ‘good’ of Offaly hurling at the centre of all he does.
Unfortunately we need much less of a ‘good’ guy in charge and the quality of Offaly hurling needs to be so much more than good

[azoffaly]

Doobane man, you never answered my question. Do I know you? Did/Do you play with Ferbane?

[Plain of the Herbs]

Why do we always leak goals to Kilkenny? Early goals, late goals, goals just before half time.

We dont leak goals to anyone else in huge numbers. Wexford, Waterford, Clare, Tipperary. Even in 1999, after leaking 5 goals to Kilkenny, we held Cork goalless. Can anyone think who was the last team to score more than 2 goals against Offaly in c'ship hurling (other than Kilkenny)?

This year, we were down 2 goals after 4 minutes, yet, on about the 25 minute mark, the score stood at something like 3-6 to 0-9 (going on memory here) and were winning possesion, and frees, in our HF line, something which would later become KK's undoing, and cost Lone Shark a fortune. Even the half-time score was 4-12 to 0-12, 16 scores to 12, or if we had kept the goal-line clear, we were level.

The problem must be a psychological one, both our own attitude, and that of Kilkenny, who seem to have a deep self-belief that any match against Offaly will be a goal-fest.

[Biff O'Mahon]

Seems like there's been a lot of thought put in to this thread (I won't contribute much thought!) & I think Doonbane Man types a lot of sense.

I'm a bit out of touch but I would've thought that Neville Coughlan could contribute a lot still to the hurling forward line?? He'd have the strength & guts that our 'stylish' forwards seem to lack.

Also think there's no point getting hung up on Kilkenny - Cody'll probably resign, who knows where that will lead - and as already been pointed out, it took 5-18 to finish them off anyway.

Realistically Offaly's route next year will be through the qualifiers again & that's where we've got to see an improvement. Being positive we're capable of putting it up to Clare, Limerick, Waterford etc but bear in mind our abysmal performance this year means that the Dublins, the Antrims, the Laoises (not sure of the plural there) & one or two other lesser lights will be setting their sights on us too.

That said, I'm hopeful that with a decentish league campaign behind him, McIntyre will be able to field a competitive unit next year.