Offaly SHC Structure 2009/2010

[GreatDayForTheParish]

Now that a year has just been completed of the new Championship format, perhaps now would be an appropriate time to evaluate said format, ascertain how well it served it's purpose this year and, most importantly, discuss whether or not it should remain unchanged for 2010.

I am not sure when exactly next year's format will be decided upon by 'the brass' but it can't be far away so now is as good a time as any to make our thoughts known. In addition, much has been written about this topic in various media over the last few months, so it's high time we gather all these collective opinions and see where we stand.

'Different strokes for different folks' is an oft used phrase so in that event it would be great to get as many different opinions as possible on this topic, better again if those opinions come from a variety of GAA backrounds (supporter, player, management, committee, magic sponge worker, etc).


To start with a few salient points should be observed. Firstly, it should be remembered that this year's format was initiated with the backing of all the clubs. This was not an insidious, secretive process with the new format sprung upon unsuspecting GAA folk by a malicious County Board. Instead it was a recognition by all parties that the old format was not working and that change was needed to better serve the interests of all involved in Offaly club hurling. For this the County Board must be commended, change and experiment are the hallmarks of learning and improvement. To have done nothing would have been an utter disgrace.

From a personal point of view, this year's format was a mixture of the good and the bad.

Pros:
1. More games. Now perhaps it sounds old fashioned but I actually quite enjoy watching my club play championship hurling. Would you believe, I also enjoy watching hurling full stop, therefore I go to my fair share of neutral games as an interested observer. We live in an era where both the Premiership and Rugby seasons last nine months with over 30 games for each team. By comparison hurling and the GAA fares very poorly. For example, Offaly hurling supporters had only 2 Championship games to get excited about this season while all of clubs had less than 10 (in a new format that some criticise as having too many games!). Now of course it is fair to point out that both the Premiership and Rugby worlds are multi-million professional leagues/sports with worldwide followings. However let it not be forgotten that even the amateur leagues of these sports each play for 8-9 months with dozens of games (e.g Birr Town F.C, Tullamore R.F.C).
It is my belief that for hurling and indeed the GAA to progress, we need to move away from the archaic mindset that only pure ‘knock out’ is true championship. Such an attitude is a relic from the past, is crippling the GAA on many levels and is completely unsuited to the modern world. More games keep supporters and players interested (as viewed by all the club hurling the threads on this forum), thus progressing the sport. It also provides a bit more money for clubs hosting the games! The extra games provided by the group games and early knock out rounds were a welcome improvement over past years. So for that reason and that reason alone this year’s format should be commended.

2. Completion time. Despite predictions of disaster, this year’s championship was ‘run-off’ without too much fuss and completed before Halloween.

3. Development of teams. The league games provided an invaluable and guaranteed ground for teams to get some serious practice in and develop a team without the fear of being knocked out. It also allowed teams plan their training season months in advance, all geared towards peaking at the right time. Tullamore’s win is proof of this.


Cons:
1. Meaningless games. A no-brainer this one and easily the Achilles heel of the new format. Above I praised the new format for more games yet it’s a bitter sweet pill when all off the group games were in effect meaningless with nobody being eliminated from the competition at that stage. Tullamore’s ultimate championship victory while only accuring two points during the group stages highlights this deficiency in the system. These games must be made meaningful as soon as possible.This year something of a novelty factor existed over the group games with some semblance of importance attached to their results. However were this format to remain, it would be fair to say that eventually an apathy and disinterest towards the league stages would develop from supporters, media and players alike, exactly not what the GAA needs. The GAA does not just need more games, it needs more meaningful games.

2. Completion time. Kilkenny are the All-Ireland champions, hurling at inter-county level for two months more than Offaly yet their Senior Club Championship Final will be played this Sunday, but one week after Offaly. Where’s the reason in that?

3. Blatantly unfair. It is absolutely ludicrous that those finishing near the bottom of the group are in effect rewarded for their poor results with a First Round knock out fixture against a fellow struggling team (3rd v 4th and 5th v 6th). Tullamore, this year played horrendously in the group stages finishing 5th yet were drawn against the woeful 6th place Ballyskenagh in the First Round knock out (which Tullamore won). Contrast this with Shamrocks who played very well in the group stages, finishing 3rd, yet their ‘reward’ for this was a First Round game against 4th place Clareen (which Shamrocks lost). This is utterly nonsensical. It’s one thing to have meaningless games in a group stage, it is another, far more dangerous, thing entirely to in effect ‘reward’ those who play poorly during the group stages while punishing those who take the early stages seriously and play well. This caveat changes previously meaningless group games into farcical games. Put simply, it's not good and fails club hurling.


Recommendations:
Fundamentally I believe this year’s system was a step in the right direction and an improvement over years gone by. However, the number of meaningless games and unfair seeding mechanism for the knock out stages means it is fundamentally and perhaps fatally flawed. Improvements therefore need to concentrate on ensuring the group stages are fair and at least somewhat meaningful with a reward/punishment system in place.
Changing it however would, I believe, be simple enough, requiring only a slight change to this year’s structure. My suggestion is as follows:

• Two groups of six (as this year).
• Bottom two in each group are eliminated from the competition and enter relegation semi-finals (5th v. 6th). Losers progress to relegation final. Winners of the relegation semi finals are safe but play no further part in that year’s championship.
• Top four teams in each group progress to quarter finals (Two 1st v 4th fixtures and two 2nd v 3rd fixtures). As an added reward for finishing first in the group, both first placed teams will be placed on opposite sides of the quarter final draw, thus ensuring that the earliest they can meet is the final.

It is by no means a perfect solution but at least a reward/punishment system is in place and the relegation battle involving the bottom two teams from each group should be close enough, ensuring that the last couple of group games for many teams will have a bit of ‘cut n thrust’ about them as they strive to finish above 5th place. In addition both first places are rewarded with an ‘easy’ quarter final draw and to an extent an 'easy' semi-final draw as the two firsts will be kept apart until at least the final.


Anyway that’s my two cents on this issue. Thoughts?

[bazza]

I'd agree with you regarding the 5th and 6th positioned teams in both groups. Let those fight for relegation. But I think you're giving too much of a reward to the 1st placed teams in the groups. Let 1st and 2nd in Group 1 be put into an open draw against 3rd and 4th in Group 2 and vice versa. I think we should be helping the likes of Tullamore, Shamrocks and Brosna who can find the going tough in mid-summer with so many dual players rather than rewarding the likes of Birr or Coolderry for hammering weakened teams in group matches.

[joe bloggs]

I would agree with the proposal by GDFTP. You have to reward teams who make the effort the finish top, and by going straight to the 1/4 finals all competing teams are treated equally. Those that finish 5th/6th then play off for relegation.
With regard to your point on completion i think early/mid october is fine. If you finish too eary you will handicap the champions chances in Leinster. also what i think worked best in this years format was that all senior hurling teams were playing into September this year, wehereas in previous years some were effectively finished after a couple of early defeats in May.

[kinnittyman]

Now that a year has just been completed of the new Championship format, perhaps now would be an appropriate time to evaluate said format, ascertain how well it served it's purpose this year and, most importantly, discuss whether or not it should remain unchanged for 2010.

I am not sure when exactly next year's format will be decided upon by 'the brass' but it can't be far away so now is as good a time as any to make our thoughts known. In addition, much has been written about this topic in various media over the last few months, so it's high time we gather all these collective opinions and see where we stand.

'Different strokes for different folks' is an oft used phrase so in that event it would be great to get as many different opinions as possible on this topic, better again if those opinions come from a variety of GAA backrounds (supporter, player, management, committee, magic sponge worker, etc).


To start with a few salient points should be observed. Firstly, it should be remembered that this year's format was initiated with the backing of all the clubs. This was not an insidious, secretive process with the new format sprung upon unsuspecting GAA folk by a malicious County Board. Instead it was a recognition by all parties that the old format was not working and that change was needed to better serve the interests of all involved in Offaly club hurling. For this the County Board must be commended, change and experiment are the hallmarks of learning and improvement. To have done nothing would have been an utter disgrace.

From a personal point of view, this year's format was a mixture of the good and the bad.

Pros:
1. More games. Now perhaps it sounds old fashioned but I actually quite enjoy watching my club play championship hurling. Would you believe, I also enjoy watching hurling full stop, therefore I go to my fair share of neutral games as an interested observer. We live in an era where both the Premiership and Rugby seasons last nine months with over 30 games for each team. By comparison hurling and the GAA fares very poorly. For example, Offaly hurling supporters had only 2 Championship games to get excited about this season while all of clubs had less than 10 (in a new format that some criticise as having too many games!). Now of course it is fair to point out that both the Premiership and Rugby worlds are multi-million professional leagues/sports with worldwide followings. However let it not be forgotten that even the amateur leagues of these sports each play for 8-9 months with dozens of games (e.g Birr Town F.C, Tullamore R.F.C).
It is my belief that for hurling and indeed the GAA to progress, we need to move away from the archaic mindset that only pure ‘knock out’ is true championship. Such an attitude is a relic from the past, is crippling the GAA on many levels and is completely unsuited to the modern world. More games keep supporters and players interested (as viewed by all the club hurling the threads on this forum), thus progressing the sport. It also provides a bit more money for clubs hosting the games! The extra games provided by the group games and early knock out rounds were a welcome improvement over past years. So for that reason and that reason alone this year’s format should be commended.

2. Completion time. Despite predictions of disaster, this year’s championship was ‘run-off’ without too much fuss and completed before Halloween.

3. Development of teams. The league games provided an invaluable and guaranteed ground for teams to get some serious practice in and develop a team without the fear of being knocked out. It also allowed teams plan their training season months in advance, all geared towards peaking at the right time. Tullamore’s win is proof of this.


Cons:
1. Meaningless games. A no-brainer this one and easily the Achilles heel of the new format. Above I praised the new format for more games yet it’s a bitter sweet pill when all off the group games were in effect meaningless with nobody being eliminated from the competition at that stage. Tullamore’s ultimate championship victory while only accuring two points during the group stages highlights this deficiency in the system. These games must be made meaningful as soon as possible.This year something of a novelty factor existed over the group games with some semblance of importance attached to their results. However were this format to remain, it would be fair to say that eventually an apathy and disinterest towards the league stages would develop from supporters, media and players alike, exactly not what the GAA needs. The GAA does not just need more games, it needs more meaningful games.

2. Completion time. Kilkenny are the All-Ireland champions, hurling at inter-county level for two months more than Offaly yet their Senior Club Championship Final will be played this Sunday, but one week after Offaly. Where’s the reason in that?

3. Blatantly unfair. It is absolutely ludicrous that those finishing near the bottom of the group are in effect rewarded for their poor results with a First Round knock out fixture against a fellow struggling team (3rd v 4th and 5th v 6th). Tullamore, this year played horrendously in the group stages finishing 5th yet were drawn against the woeful 6th place Ballyskenagh in the First Round knock out (which Tullamore won). Contrast this with Shamrocks who played very well in the group stages, finishing 3rd, yet their ‘reward’ for this was a First Round game against 4th place Clareen (which Shamrocks lost). This is utterly nonsensical. It’s one thing to have meaningless games in a group stage, it is another, far more dangerous, thing entirely to in effect ‘reward’ those who play poorly during the group stages while punishing those who take the early stages seriously and play well. This caveat changes previously meaningless group games into farcical games. Put simply, it's not good and fails club hurling.


Recommendations:
Fundamentally I believe this year’s system was a step in the right direction and an improvement over years gone by. However, the number of meaningless games and unfair seeding mechanism for the knock out stages means it is fundamentally and perhaps fatally flawed. Improvements therefore need to concentrate on ensuring the group stages are fair and at least somewhat meaningful with a reward/punishment system in place.
Changing it however would, I believe, be simple enough, requiring only a slight change to this year’s structure. My suggestion is as follows:

• Two groups of six (as this year).
• Bottom two in each group are eliminated from the competition and enter relegation semi-finals (5th v. 6th). Losers progress to relegation final. Winners of the relegation semi finals are safe but play no further part in that year’s championship.
• Top four teams in each group progress to quarter finals (Two 1st v 4th fixtures and two 2nd v 3rd fixtures). As an added reward for finishing first in the group, both first placed teams will be placed on opposite sides of the quarter final draw, thus ensuring that the earliest they can meet is the final.

It is by no means a perfect solution but at least a reward/punishment system is in place and the relegation battle involving the bottom two teams from each group should be close enough, ensuring that the last couple of group games for many teams will have a bit of ‘cut n thrust’ about them as they strive to finish above 5th place. In addition both first places are rewarded with an ‘easy’ quarter final draw and to an extent an 'easy' semi-final draw as the two firsts will be kept apart until at least the final.


Anyway that’s my two cents on this issue. Thoughts?

Well the first thing I would like to say is that the new structure definitley did not have the backing of all the clubs. I can categorically state that my own club voted against the proposal as were shocked to find out that a team could win the county final and not even win a group game, which we all know subsequently happy. In fact when we brought this to the attention of another senior hurling clubs chairman at a county board meeting to vote on the matter he told us in no uncertain terms that we were wrong-This just goes to show what sort of muppet that club has running them.

Regarding next years structure I have made my feelings known on another thread but generally I agree with the terms outlined above. I would even go so far as to just let the top 3 teams qualify with the winners straight to semis. Although I do acknowledge this could lead to some dead rubbers towards the end of the groups. My thinking on it though is that if a team doesnt finish in top 3 after group games they arent really entitled to progress. However I have no major issue with top 4 going through and 4 quarters.

One final point is this-I know of one senior club that is supporting a motion that this years championship format be in place for 2010 and we can a hazard a guess that Tullamore will also like to see it remain so there is no guarantee that any change will take place.

[TheManFromFerbane]

I think we should be helping the likes of Tullamore, Shamrocks and Brosna who can find the going tough in mid-summer with so many dual players rather than rewarding the likes of Birr or Coolderry for hammering weakened teams in group matches.

And Ferbane\Belmont!!! To be honest I think this is the main problem with the system. I was working on something called the extinction of the dual player but stupid work got in the way! I might throw it up later if I get the time.

[Lone Shark]

Just to put cards on the table, I too would be coming from a dual club background and for the same reasons, I'd be very skeptical.

People comparre this with Kilkenny and how they manage to make it work despite reaching the All Ireland final in all three codes, but the simple truth of it is that they don't play football. They don't have to worry about county football teams, they don't have to worry about a county football championship, and what's also notable is that they don't play a league. They play a few other tournaments, but they don't have a league and a league based championship.

With the structure as it stands now, I think it's going to lead to too much difficulty down the road. You will be in a situation next year where four of the twelve senior hurling teams will be trying to co-exist with senior club football, and when you introduce county representation into that mix, it simply becomes too difficult. It's understandable that several clubs, in that situation, will end up taking the decision that these group games can be treated like league matches, because ultimate the result is of little consequence. The only way that it can ever be any other way is if there is real reward for moving up the table, and right now, there isn't - some would argue the opposite is the case in certain instances.

However if you had a hierarchy as follows (as per the Westmeath SFC) - 1st goes into the semi finals, 2nd plays 3rd in quarter finals, 4th is out but safe, and fifth plays sixth in relegation semis, then every spot means something. Indeed you could even do something whereby fifth placed finishers get home advantage for the relegation semis, thus giving an incentive to climb even that final spot.

At the risk of introducing another wild card into the mix, this would work even better if it was five team groups, as you could just have a straight relegation final.

I agree completely with GTFTP in that more hurling is good, but it needs to be meaningful hurling. That won't happen if there is so little to be won and lost in the group games.

Now let's look at another scenario - where junior and intermediate teams becomes involved. Let's look at the last round of this year's championship, where Belmont played Lusmagh. At that stage, Lusmagh had no chance of escaping the bottom two, while Belmont would have need a huge favour from Tullamore to finish in the top two. If hypothetically, Belmont had been hit with a dose of flu that week and four or five lads were unable to line out, is it fair to expect the club to take four or five good players out of their junior team that was still in contention? Likewise Birr for their game against Seir Kieran, or Shinrone for their match with K/K.

You have to live in the realm of the possible with these things, and if you don't create a real incentive to win matches, clubs will occasionally end up not treating them as they would stright knockout games - which in turn will devalue the whole process and increase the likelihood of even more such instances in the future.

You also have to be prepared for what could happen - we say things went fine this year, but that was in a year where other than Belmont going to a replay with Kinnitty, each of the three dual clubs played the least amount of games possible in one of the two codes. What happens next year if someone does like Ballyboden? What happens if our senior footballers or senior hurlers make a bit of a run and continue playing into early August? What happens if our under-21 hurlers get out of Leinster?

Also, and I'm only guessing on this, but I'd wager that clubs would prefer less of the week of hurling/week of football alternating that was going on. It meant that players ended up doing no real training with either team, but instead getting no more than one decent midweek session with their team about to play that weekend, and the "knockaround" session that teams would have a day or two before the game to keep the eye in. Maybe there would be merit to getting the hurling done in two blocks and maybe even getting the football groups run over four weeks in between, thus allowing for a bit of continuity?

[Plain of the Herbs]

That last comment is intended as a joke, right? Continuity, is it?

Maybe there would be merit to getting the hurling done in two blocks and maybe even getting the football groups run over four weeks in between, thus allowing for a bit of continuity?

[Lone Shark]

That last comment is intended as a joke, right? Continuity, is it?

Maybe there would be merit to getting the hurling done in two blocks and maybe even getting the football groups run over four weeks in between, thus allowing for a bit of continuity?

I was thinking more about continuity for the players involved in both codes, rather than necesssarily continuity for the clubs who only play one sport.

Call me crazy, but surely if we think of ourselves as a dual county, we should be trying to accommodate these people, rather than the clubs who can't be bothered to play two sports, or who treat one way more seriously than the other.

[Plain of the Herbs]

That notion that the club hurlers of the county, having waited for the county team to exit the championship, might then like to wait for the club football championship to run its course - that's about the funniest thing I've read on this site for a while.

I was thinking more about continuity for the players involved in both codes, rather than necesssarily continuity for the clubs who only play one sport.

Call me crazy, but surely if we think of ourselves as a dual county, we should be trying to accommodate these people, rather than the clubs who can't be bothered to play two sports, or who treat one way more seriously than the other.

[Lone Shark]

That notion that the club hurlers of the county, having waited for the county team to exit the championship, might then like to wait for the club football championship to run its course - that's about the funniest thing I've read on this site for a while.

I was thinking more about continuity for the players involved in both codes, rather than necesssarily continuity for the clubs who only play one sport.

Call me crazy, but surely if we think of ourselves as a dual county, we should be trying to accommodate these people, rather than the clubs who can't be bothered to play two sports, or who treat one way more seriously than the other.

This is the thing though - either we are a dual county, or we aren't. If we are, then we should be trying to accommodate and even encourage people to play both sports. The current system of alternate weeks doesn't do that.

Neither did I say which championship would be run off first - that would simply be a function of when the intercounty teams are playing.

[TheManFromFerbane]

That notion that the club hurlers of the county, having waited for the county team to exit the championship, might then like to wait for the club football championship to run its course - that's about the funniest thing I've read on this site for a while.

Well I don't know if they should have to wait until the football is over but there should at least be one free weekend between hurling and football rounds. We had 5 lads playing hurling Championship on a Thursday night and then football Championship on the Sunday. Thats a third of our team who were playing tired, burnt out and at even more at risk of getting a serious injury. So much for the GAA's player burn-out policy!

And that wasn't just us in that situation and I accept that, but this is the GAA FFS. They should be trying to encourage lads to represent their parish in both codes if possible. Not discourage them!

[Plain of the Herbs]

I thought t’was daycent of them to put the Kinnitty v Belmont replay back an extra week to accommodate the dual players on the Belmont team.

As for this ‘dual county’ thing. Yes, Offaly are a dual county but that’s because the county boundaries straddle both traditional hurling and football territories. Bear in mind that people in those areas would have played either hurling or football in those areas long before the formation of the GAA in 1884.

That goes for the country as a whole. Kilkenny is a hurling county because there happen to be no pockets of ‘football territory’ within its boundaries. Neighbouring Tipperary has a substantial football district in the South Tipperary District, as well as in the West Division, plus the Loughmore area of Mid-Tipperary.

Most counties in the northern half of the country don’t have a specific hurling area at all.

I sometimes feel that if the county boundaries were otherwise there would be other ‘hurling-only’ counties along with Kilkenny.

Take an area of South of Birr, over towards Kinnitty, over the mountains to West Laois, over to Roscrea taking in the North Tipp District, down to Newport, the East Limerick District, over the Shannon, taking in East Clare, up to Gort, on to Athenry, back to Ballinasloe and back to Birr again. Now suppose that area is a county, or two counties. There’s another hurling-only county or two. Thing is that Laois, Tipperary, Limerick, Clare and Galway are the same as ourselves in that those counties also contain football territories and so promote both games.

Offaly’s duel problem is exacerbated by individual parishes (Banagher & Cloghan, Belmont and Ferbane) straddling both hurling and football areas. Rahan was once a hurling area but switched to football in the 70’s and is now caught between the two.

My point, after all that long-windedness, is that the hurling clubs should be allowed promote hurling without an expectation to make a serious effort at football. The same goes for football and there are several small football clubs shouldn’t be forced to play hurling if they don’t want to, or haven’t the numbers to do so. Neither, for a moment, would I expect the football championship be put on hold while we carried on with our hurling championship, though the opposite has been suggested elsewhere.

There was a suggestion in one of the local papers recently that the hurling championship be put on hold until the Junior football championship be completed. Where do people intend this to stop?

It looks to me that the hurling one week – football next week, while not ideal for all, is the best alternative all-around.


FOOTNOTE 1: From a fella who's club were involved in the relegation final this year - don't underestimate the value of finishing outside the bottom two in the group and guaranteeing senior survival. I'd say Clareen and Rahan (both of whom were involved in the relegation series last year) were relieved.

FOOTNOTE 2: Congrats to Ballycommon on winning the junior ‘B’ football title for the first time since 1982. Ballycommon played an important part in Offaly’s All-Ireland win that year providing their pitch for the county team to train on. I note that Lusmagh succeeded Ballycommon as Junior ‘B’ champions, winning that title in 1983. I don’t expect the trend to be repeated somehow!

[Bord na Mona man]

What doesn't help is the inactivity of the club championship during the inter county championship.
If the county team is going to have to 2 or 3 consecutive free Sundays, there should be a full round of Offaly championship matches.
This year, there was a 6 or 7 week gap between both Offaly teams getting knocked out of Leinster, yet there was little club action.

[TheManFromFerbane]

What doesn't help is the inactivity of the club championship during the inter county championship.
If the county team is going to have to 2 or 3 consecutive free Sundays, there should be a full round of Offaly championship matches.
This year, there was a 6 or 7 week gap between both Offaly teams getting knocked out of Leinster, yet there was little club action.

I know what you're saying on this but the flip side of that was that teams never knew when they were going to be out and that was a disaster when you were trying to prepare a team. With this years structure we had a timetable laid out and it was basically stuck to. In fairness to the County Board they deserve a bit of praise for this IMO.

[Slieve Bloom Man]

Proposals going ahead to next Tuesday night's county board will have the same format for hurling and football next year, 2 groups of 6 with 1st in each group qualifying for semi-finals, 2nd and 3rd into quarter-finals. 5th and 6th will play relegation matches. This system will also apply to intermediate and Junior A as well, Junior B and C will depend on no. of teams in those competitions. Would be an improvement on this year anyway but there might be problems as well esp dual clubs and possibilty of very one-sided games in latter stages of groups.