Offaly Hurling 2020

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.
Fairplayalways
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Fairplayalways » Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:40 pm

Bord na Mona man wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:36 am
First things first, Offaly were somewhat unlucky in having a valid goal from a penalty not allowed. Would Offaly have won if it was counted? It's hard to know, unfortunately I doubt Offaly would have pulled away.

For years now in games where Offaly play a 'lesser' team the game seems to follow a distinct pattern. Offaly get a lead of 3 or 4 points and then go into a holding pattern where they don't push ahead. Invariably they let the other back into the game. This is why underdogs love playing Offaly. The door will be left open for them.

Down of course played very well yesterday. They stuck with it right through and were worth their win. It's a mild surprise that Offaly lost, in no way is it a shock. The decision making and shot selection was poor throughout. For about 2 minutes of extra time Offaly played with clear headed precision and purpose, before reverting again.

I believe the management should be a given a proper chance. It looks obvious that Fennelly overestimated the qualities of the squad, mentally and hurling wise. Playing Tipperary in a challenge match recently showed over-optimism. He played for Ballyhale and Kilkenny who dominated their arenas, so he doesn't have a background in operating in struggling teams.
He will have learned a lot, even from a curtailed season. He should be allowed apply this and come back with a modified blueprint.

Watching the other games yesterday with Cork, Tipp, Galway and Kilkenny. It's a long way ahead of where Offaly are now.
The manner in which these teams move off the ball and bullet 30 and 40 metre stick passes to each other that go straight to hand.
Are usual this defeat will bring out the Pol Pots of Offaly hurling where the 'year zero' is 1980 and any advancement from then should be treated with distain and dismissed.

Those demanding that Offaly look to the past in order to move forward would do well to bear in mind that the top teams of this era would demolish any team from the past or any team playing old school hurling.
Offaly missing or not being awarded a score is fair post to make, it happened (not exactly sure) but going to say mid 2nd half, it didnt happen in the last minute or 2...Offaly had enough of a lead at one stage, total control almost, but just died away, some of the subs were baffling, Brian Duignan, who I hope reaches his potential, shoots on sight, yeah, grand and all that but sometimes, as Eoghan Cahil in fairness does, spots a loose man in a better position, I dont know if this has been said to Duignan, as last two games, even when well ahead against Derry, he was shooting from rediculous positions out on the sideline, that should only happen in one game, not 2 in a row...without harping on, too many so called stars, particulary in our forwards, havnet raised a puff, and dont look like raising a puff, get rid and bring on these younger lads...I would be spring cleaning that panel, nothing too radical maybe but some are there too long with little or nothing to show for the pedigree they are talked up to be...sorry, but thats as I see it, they are adults, not kids....

private joker
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by private joker » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:16 pm

Fairplayalways wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 7:33 pm
has the poster that predicited Offaly would win over Down by 15 points surfaced....
Many times!!

Downhurling
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Downhurling » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:22 am

Lads I would just like to come on this as seen on Twitter yous are going in to post mortems over yesterday’s result.
I honestly believe the conditions and water breaks ie non opportunity to build momentum etc had a lot to do with the result.Just to balance your argument and stop yous laying into players and management these results can happen.. It’s not the first time Down have produced a shock, Down relegated Kilkenny in the 90s from Div 1 of the nhl.. And look what happened to Kilkenny since then!
This current Down team would be the best they have had in years. The problem is yous would have seen very little of our guys hurl, Conor woods at centre back should’ve been marked as he can control a game. Eoghan sands needed marked tighter at full forward. Yous didn’t carry the ball enough and run at our defence. Possible mistakes by your management. However up in Down in clubs like Portaferry, Ballycran and Ballygalget have been holding their own for the past few years in Div 1 of the Antrim league against Loughgiel, Dunloy, Cushendall we have a good few guys now at a decent standard.The Derry team that you defeated last week were missing around 6/7 easily of the Slaughtneil guys who would strengthen them, they are really a shadow Derry team. Down and Derry are always tight games though and we beat them twice but they would usually be tight physical encounters. It’s hard for Michael fennelly to do his homework on these teams as the southern knowledge is just not there on our games yous would be unaware of what yous are facing. Not sticking up for them by any means but yous will win the Christy ring next year, you just can’t go into this competition thinking teams like us in Down will be easy to beat. I think that’s what happened yesterday really..

Northoffhurling
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Northoffhurling » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:31 am

Question as should Offaly go with big men in the foward line again that can catch ball, Adrian Hynes came on scored 2 points won a free and hit the crossbar for what would have been a great goal and every puck out went down on top of him, just a theory but to get us out of the hole we’re in now use big men and then when we climb up the ladder maybe try then to play the nice hurling. In my opinion this wasn’t the competition or the time of year to be playing nice hurling

SearingDrive
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by SearingDrive » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:09 pm

Downhurling wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:22 am
Lads I would just like to come on this as seen on Twitter yous are going in to post mortems over yesterday’s result.
I honestly believe the conditions and water breaks ie non opportunity to build momentum etc had a lot to do with the result.Just to balance your argument and stop yous laying into players and management these results can happen.. It’s not the first time Down have produced a shock, Down relegated Kilkenny in the 90s from Div 1 of the nhl.. And look what happened to Kilkenny since then!
This current Down team would be the best they have had in years. The problem is yous would have seen very little of our guys hurl, Conor woods at centre back should’ve been marked as he can control a game. Eoghan sands needed marked tighter at full forward. Yous didn’t carry the ball enough and run at our defence. Possible mistakes by your management. However up in Down in clubs like Portaferry, Ballycran and Ballygalget have been holding their own for the past few years in Div 1 of the Antrim league against Loughgiel, Dunloy, Cushendall we have a good few guys now at a decent standard.The Derry team that you defeated last week were missing around 6/7 easily of the Slaughtneil guys who would strengthen them, they are really a shadow Derry team. Down and Derry are always tight games though and we beat them twice but they would usually be tight physical encounters. It’s hard for Michael fennelly to do his homework on these teams as the southern knowledge is just not there on our games yous would be unaware of what yous are facing. Not sticking up for them by any means but yous will win the Christy ring next year, you just can’t go into this competition thinking teams like us in Down will be easy to beat. I think that’s what happened yesterday really..
Congratulations, and thanks for the positive note about Offaly hurling for 2021. I thought your footballers would beat Cavan yesterday, but lost. Be great to see Down football strong again. Good luck v Kildare. We have to improve things next year.

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Bord na Mona man
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Bord na Mona man » Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:44 pm

Northoffhurling wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:31 am
Question as should Offaly go with big men in the foward line again that can catch ball, Adrian Hynes came on scored 2 points won a free and hit the crossbar for what would have been a great goal and every puck out went down on top of him, just a theory but to get us out of the hole we’re in now use big men and then when we climb up the ladder maybe try then to play the nice hurling. In my opinion this wasn’t the competition or the time of year to be playing nice hurling
Many thanks to the Down visitors for their sporting comments.
Also, it must be said that the commentators on Pairc TV were quite fair in their reporting of the game.

As regards big catching men, these are in short supply in Offaly right now. And agreed, Offaly's approach would have worked better on a manicured, zippy pitch like Croke Park. Saturday was a day for trench warfare hurling and Offaly didn't adjust well enough.

Fairplayalways
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Fairplayalways » Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:45 pm

no more than Derry the week before, they may have been trailing most of the game, but the looked somewhat more unified in the things they were doing, Down were the same on Saturday, so I am sure Down will say, we would have hurled way better on a lovely surface like Croke Park, Offaly cannot really claim that was a factor in their defeat, conditions were the same for both teams, the ground was as good I am sure as most grounds offaly played on over the last few seasons...our woes go beyond a smooth surface to play on...but I do take the point, but honestly dont think it can be a valid cause as to why we struggled...too many players not performing, and thats the bottom line...

Tmacmahon
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Tmacmahon » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:26 pm

So where do we go from here?

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bracknaghboy
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by bracknaghboy » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:46 pm

I believe as a county our humiliation is now complete.
Not being able to win 2 games in the Christy Ring is realistically as low as it gets surely?

As for Mick Fennelly? What he didn't know is that any man that signs up for the Offaly hot seat (and it is hot,very hot :lol: ) effectively signs his own managerial death warrant. Nobody recovers from it, it's not possible, in fact most disappear completely from public life never to be heard from again.
I could have swore I saw poor Kevin Ryans picture on the side of a carton of milk last year when I was in Dungarvan, hopefully they find him!

Hasselhoff
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Hasselhoff » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:20 pm

bracknaghboy wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:46 pm
I believe as a county our humiliation is now complete.
Not being able to win 2 games in the Christy Ring is realistically as low as it gets surely?

As for Mick Fennelly? What he didn't know is that any man that signs up for the Offaly hot seat (and it is hot,very hot :lol: ) effectively signs his own managerial death warrant. Nobody recovers from it, it's not possible, in fact most disappear completely from public life never to be heard from again.
I could have swore I saw poor Kevin Ryans picture on the side of a carton of milk last year when I was in Dungarvan, hopefully they find him!
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Stick to the football.

private joker
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by private joker » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:22 pm

Tmacmahon wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:26 pm
So where do we go from here?
Complete change in how things are done at club level. A radical but will never happen change would be to have westmeath, laois and offaly combined leagues. More higher quality teams playing each other at senior level. More player development plans at juvenile level that are actually followed. The club base needs to be bigger for the top ( intercounty) to be wider. More selection, more competition equals higher quailty player.

Fairplayalways
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Fairplayalways » Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:31 am

Tmacmahon wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:26 pm
So where do we go from here?
ah I dont know, I am sure if you went behind the scenes, we done alot of what every other "top" county has done over the weekend in fairness...we cant be that far off the mark preparation wise, in ways, maybe we have highlighted the lenghts player have to go to now in the current game, not that we dont have some inkling whats involved, but wouldnt you want some lifestyle now, to commit to all this. I see relatively young current or retired players on panels now, and in the live broadcasts they are all outside social distancing etc. all are very well dressed, designer coats and scarves and shoes NOT bought out of Pennys or Dunnes...whats my point?...its a game now more drawn to well of middle class people, yes, you will hear people say oh sure he is only from such and such a place in such and such a town, they would be very ordinary people..yes,but those players are in the minority now in the modern game...iI know 4 lads, excellent hurlers, wont mention the club but it is a top club in Offaly, who went into the county set up in the last 5 years, done a few months of the training, went to a load of challenge games etc. got a few league games, and left the panel themselves, this I can vouch for 3 or the 4, and these players, and the parents of two of them told me they couldnt afford to keep it up, they said it was "costly racket" and they tried and supported the lads but couldnt afford to driving to Waterford one weekend, Limerick the next for a challenge game, and the cost of getting there, stopping for something to eat and what have you...the players themselves didnt want to keep going as they knew in their hearts it was costing so much to their parents...

The above might be some of our problem in that some of our best players just cannot opt in (or are afraid to incase they have to opt out)..you look at the panelists now on any game at the weekend, and all have very good jobs, plus their tv gigs...lads will come on here now and say this is a load of rubbish, and these same people will be more than likely from the same back ground as they players who can afford to stick with the county, so they wont see it as and expensive "pass time", they wont understand the issue, because the can do it doesnt mean everyone else can...

The above aside, we need to see if Fennelly will stay another year, I have my doubts, if he does, we might as well stay put with him. We need to go through our panel, one by one, some players living off a one or two big performances for their clubs, over an overly drawn out club championship, where the form of a player in the first round in April/May, means nothing when the player lines out for the county in July not having played club game for 6 weeks maybe..we are a bit slow to shake things up too in Offaly, bring a proven ball winner out to midfield, let him loose and see what happens...little dainty hurlers, full of skill and speed, but no cut or brashness, no use in the middle of the field..We have no Ger Oalkey, or Johnny Pilkington (run all day, not a great strike of the ball but by jaysus you knew he was on the field) we have lads now, lovely fellahs and great skill, but you woudnt know them from another player if they switched postion or even substituted...we need to go again, pick a new panel, and pick 2 teak tough players for each of the lines of the team, you will get away with one skillfull player in each line and probably need them...

Liam2020
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Liam2020 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:10 am

I don't agree that offaly were unlucky, Down were the better team.
We have failed in both league and championship to make progress, but I am not surprise loot at the team only 3 guys from this years County finals, surely those guys are in form players.
4 starters are senior B, there is a huge difference in senior a and senior B,
KK senior B team are competive in senior B so they have 20 guys better than them.
I can not understand why J Quinn p camon S Dolan and cahal Kiely were not autmatic selection,
WHY WAS EOIN CAHAILL out in midfield surely he needs to be in the scoring zone.?
M fennelly seems to ignore what happened at club level and Sunday was the result.

Fairplayalways
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Re: Offaly Hurling 2020

Post by Fairplayalways » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:03 pm

Sean Dolan and one or two others opted out a few weeks ago for various reasons, not sure what, I agree we have failel in league and in this competition, gloss it up whatever way you want, but that is the truth.

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Statistically speaking

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:06 pm

Looking back on last Saturday’s semi-final defeat, Offaly lost because, though they created far more scoring chances than the opposition, they took fewer of them. (Figures based on the 70 minutes of normal time, for comparison purposes.)

On Saturday, Offaly scored 1-16, hit 18 wides, dropped 2 into the goalkeeper, 1 hit the crossbar (Hynes), a goal chance smothered away and a penalty goal not given. 40 scoring attempts with 17 chances scored and 23 missed. A conversion rate of 42.5%.

Meanwhile, Down scored 1-16 and hit 10 wides. 27 scoring chances and a conversion rate of 63%.

Offaly did enough good hurling to create 13 more scoring chances (48%) than Down did. That’s actually staggering. If Offaly matched Down’s 63% efficiency, they would have scored 1-24. And won well. Whether or not the better team won is academic now, Offaly are going to have to live with the regrets.

Otherwise, very evenly matched. Offaly were awarded 14 frees and gave away 17. Offaly win 46% of their own puckouts, Down won 45% of theirs. Offaly forced 28 turnovers of possession and coughed up the same number. Offaly made 5 hooks/blocks, while no Offaly player was hooked or blocked. Offaly made 5 contested catches (though the game was 40 minutes old before the first one when Cillian Kiely fetched Conor Woods’ long free). Down made no contested catch.

I don’t believe Offaly overdid the handpassing. Not in the first 70 minutes anyway. I thought Offaly had made some progress with their hurling style this year. They looked to hold on to possession, looked to counter attack and looked to support the ball carrier. And they had 13 more attempts at scores than Down did. Firing the ball long is not to the advantage of the forward and needs to be eliminated anyway.

Ball playing needs to be encouraged and practiced. The best score of the match was when Paddy Delaney collected a short puckout, the ball went through a few hands coming out of defence before centre half-back Cillian Kiely made an overlapping run on the right hand touchline, took a pass and fired between the posts from long range. I think it was Offaly’s 15th point.

@Downhurling points out that Offaly didn’t carry the ball enough and run at the Down defence. He is correct. Offaly should have ran at Down and tested their discipline. As Down did. Down were awarded 6 of their 17 frees during the fourth quarter, which they hurled on the front foot.

Looking at Brian McDonnell’s excellent analysis of 2019’s Liam MacCarthy championship (here’s the link: http://sixtwofourtwo.com/2019shcstats, series 6), we see that Liam MacCarthy counties can average over 250 possessions per game. Even Carlow, who were beaten 4 times in Leinster, averaged 218 possessions per game last year. Offaly, with 130 possessions against fellow Christy Ring opposition, would be devoured at that rate. So to develop and improve, Offaly need to play more ball.

Whether we like it or not, restarts are a key component of hurling. Worryingly, Offaly won just 46% of their own puckout. For comparison, Liam MacCarthy teams won between 59% (Wexford, Laois) and 67% (Cork) last year. Offaly went short to a defender on 6 of those (25%). Comparing to Brian McDonnell’s analysis, Liam MacCarthy counties went short between 23% (Kilkenny) and 52% (Cork) of the time. And when Offaly went long against Down, as they did on 18 occasions, they won just 6 (33%).

Offaly will be hampered for a number of years to come by the deficiencies that existed in their underage development for over a decade. But there is nothing to be gained by ditching Mick Fennelly and Johnny Kelly and the rest. It won’t change the way these hurlers have been brought up to get rid of the ball. Best for Offaly that they be left there to help to develop this generation of Offaly Senior hurlers.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

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