Joe McDonagh cup

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.
Post Reply
shannonbanks14
County player
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:15 am

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by shannonbanks14 » Sun May 19, 2019 2:53 pm

Well said.

Plain of the Herbs
All Star
Posts: 3048
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:47 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Sun May 19, 2019 3:54 pm

I'll bump this forward because it will be lost at the bottom of the previous page. Great post. Thank you.
substandard wrote:It's Kevin Martin's fault.
It's the County Board's fault.
It's the players' fault.
It's OCP's fault.
It's the underage fault.
It's the Development Squad's fault.
It's the South Offaly clubs' fault.
It's the North Offaly clubs' fault.
It's Tommy Burns' fault.
It's (insert previous manager's name) fault.
It's the Plan's fault.
It's the lack of a Plan's fault.
(Space to add targets as you wish).

I'm two years away from the Offaly club scene now- and because I'm an outsider and football- oriented, I'm probably not justified in commenting about Offaly hurling. Please stop reading at this point if you are so inclined.

I've been listening to talk and reading about the demise of Offaly hurling over 10 years now.
That's the span of a lot of inter-county careers. As I have listed above, pot-shots are taken at any number of targets at any given time. Some features more frequently than others.

It's very easy to take aim. The County Board- scheming away at new ways to drag Offaly hurling (and football) down. Kevin Martin- surely he runs any lad that can hurl, and deliberately tells players to do things badly for fear that they might win a game. The blame game is easy: all you have to do is say 'Shure they (management, whatever team or code) haven't a clue', and 'Shure the players are shite, they don't care about the jersey'.
Equally easy to blast about OCP vs Birr. The development squads. The schools.
Launch a rant about any of the above, and straight away you've made friends. Lads will back you up in the smoking section of pubs, or outside the local shop, or after mass- or on online chat forums. Women will, too. It becomes a way of life. It's easy, and it's dangerous. It fosters apathy, a culture of victim-hood, and it weighs down any effort to progress.
Does outrage make you a true Offaly GAA person? Does chest-thumping and railing about any of the failings of officials, coaches, players, etc show how much you care- more than any of the aforementioned? Immediately, self-righteous-ness is engaged. So you are a paid member of your club. So you've been doing this, that and the other for years. So you buy tickets and pay into every game you go to.
Well, hoo-haa. Big deal.
You see, you're responsible for the current state of affairs as well. You're partially culpable. You have contributed to the mess as well.
What- moi? Surely not- I do my best, all that I can. Sure I've no say in what happens day to day. I haven't time to get involved. That's someone else's job. I don't go to meetings. I drop the young lad off to training, or I bring him to matches now and again.

You see the dangers of the blame game. People go into defensive mode. And if you're in defensive mode, you'll look for excuses- someone else to blame. Spread enough blame around, and you create a toxic atmosphere. Everything grinds to a halt. Carlow are training teams, hurling and football. Likely with similar numbers to Offaly, in hurling and football- I'm talking county squads, not clubs. They've probably broadly similar numbers of coaches, probably with similar qualifications. But they're operating under the 'Carlow Rising' banner. They're operating in an altogether more positive atmosphere. Easier to coach in. Easier to play in. Easier to support.

Looking at problems, excuses and blame are easy. Solutions are not so easy. Start at the bottom is the easy suggestion, or put money into underage is another. See, these ones are higher order thinking variants of the blame game. If you say these, you show that you are sage and forward-thinking compared with the ranters and railers I was in about earlier. All good and well: start what at the bottom? Where is the bottom? What will money do in underage? Now, my sample size is admittedly very small- I've brought this up with three people I've spoken to. They were borderline evangelical when it came to stating what should be done, I.e. start at the bottom, and pump money into underage, but when pressed, it tailed off into a vague 'You know, coaching and stuff...'. In other words, they didn't know.
You see, this is the thing. In The Hitchhiker 's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe and Everything was 42. A concrete, definitive answer- it was the question that lacked clarity. At the start of this, I listed as many of the usual causes of the problems with Offaly hurling as they get trotted out, off the top of my head. In thinking about solutions, you need to simplify the problem. Cut away all the hyperbole, and identify what can be done. What needs to happen at this point in Offaly needs to be new, radical, easy to implement, and most importantly, measurable.
While schools have a role and need to be addressed, the primary focus should be on clubs, and the onus is on clubs.
The standard of coaching and developing competitiveness has to improve dramatically in clubs. It may well be tough medicine for some, but I guarantee you, if you look at your own club, how many mentors are involved with teams that are just not good enough, or are stuck in the past, or are only there because no-one else will take on the role, or- and this is the most urgently in need of rectifying: the local legend who has always taken the u14s or 16s and won plenty of titles because he has always had one or two big lads or skilful lads to carry the team through, with zero development of skills or two-sides?
I have a suggestion that I think would help improve standards across the board at club level, but I've ran out of energy and time at this point.

There has been enough time spent/ wasted on blame. Solutions is what Offaly needs, not the same old, same old.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

Plain of the Herbs
All Star
Posts: 3048
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:47 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Sun May 19, 2019 3:56 pm

On the subject of clearing out the county board, etc: I’m not a county board apologist or sympathiser, but there are a few things to note.

There has been incremental change at the top table in recent years. Seven of the 15 currently in office have come onto the board in either December 2017’s or 2018’s conventions. They seem to be moving away from the public service dominated board that has been there for too long.

Nora Kavanagh has played a very important role in researching and implementing child protection procedures – a very specialist area.

Brian Flynn is implementing financial reporting procedures which give up to date information regarding the board’s position.

Development and assessment of underage players (skills, s&c) now goes well beyond what was envisaged in the ‘Liam Hogan’ report. There is much more mentoring of coaches and courses being offered. I was critical of Ger Maher and Niall Gleeson on this site earlier this year, in the absence of complete information. Wrongly so, and I now know these are two capable and motivated men with Offaly’s best interests in mind.

Yes, some relics remain on the top table. They should ask themselves why they remain in office. If that is because they believe they are the best people for the position, then fair enough. But if they are doing it because there is no one else, or because that's what they've always done, or because it keeps them in on things, they are doing it for the wrong reasons.

But I do detect the tide is slowly turning.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

italia90
Junior B
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:42 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by italia90 » Mon May 20, 2019 12:36 am

The results of late should not be a shock to anyone. All the underage results at school and developement squad levels have been there to see. We are where we are. One of the biggest problems we have in the county is the almost even split of priority. Half football half hurling. This shall always be the case. And fair enough. Effectively we have two Leitrim's operating at inter county. While there may be great work being done or will in the future, we have to reset expectations, be it short term or long term. I say that as a realist not a defeatist. The allure to play inter county now is what exactly, 30 seconds on the Sunday Game if your lucky. In the last number of years the gaa have killed off the dual player, next up is the weaker counties day in the sun. Tiers 2 and 3 in either code will not be promoted or televised. Win either on a small budget and then what. Will A.I.G come calling. I am a Gaa diehard but we have turned into the premiership very quickly over the years with just a few with realistic ambitions of silverware. Enjoy the winters club action.

biffinbanner
County player
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:15 pm
Club: ferbane

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by biffinbanner » Mon May 20, 2019 7:52 am

agree re population and resources etc. the bigger populated countys are so organised now its hard see many small countys emerging at the top level. as regards exposure would it be a good idea to have tg4 get the joe mcdonagh and the seemingly inevitable 2nd tier football games? they do a great job on the league and club matches? even though most people have no idea what the commentors are saying its still a good channel.

italia90
Junior B
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:42 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by italia90 » Mon May 20, 2019 8:32 am

Having the games televised on tg4 will be great for the diehard but little else. Suppose we get our underage going again. A young lad in dublin kilkenny etc is dreaming of winning all irelands and prime time slots on rte on a Sunday. The same Offaly youngster has what to look forward too? Replacing John Wayne on an early Saturday fixture on tg4. What sponsorship will you get. What profile will a player have. Any player nowadays with Offaly I salute. They are giving up large amounts of time for little in return. To be told you are not worthy enough to be televised. Tg4 would be just a token. The gap will get wider. Try convince a talented player slogging it out in winter that an early saturday fixture in may is worth it. But dont worry kid the real hurling or football is on the Sunday ya can watch that once youve the sky paid for

private joker
All Star
Posts: 303
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 4:09 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by private joker » Mon May 20, 2019 8:56 am

italia90 wrote:Having the games televised on tg4 will be great for the diehard but little else. Suppose we get our underage going again. A young lad in dublin kilkenny etc is dreaming of winning all irelands and prime time slots on rte on a Sunday. The same Offaly youngster has what to look forward too? Replacing John Wayne on an early Saturday fixture on tg4. What sponsorship will you get. What profile will a player have. Any player nowadays with Offaly I salute. They are giving up large amounts of time for little in return. To be told you are not worthy enough to be televised. Tg4 would be just a token. The gap will get wider. Try convince a talented player slogging it out in winter that an early saturday fixture in may is worth it. But dont worry kid the real hurling or football is on the Sunday ya can watch that once youve the sky paid for
What exactly are you on about? That Players are looking to be on the Sunday game? Is that what's holding back westmeath? How much exposure have Carlow been given? You have lads posting on here sneering the Joe mcdonagh cup and Offaly can't even win a game. What's driving DJ Carey to be over KK minor football team? He's been with them since u14!!!. What drives on those young lads to play football in a hurling only county? You want to represent where your from as best as possible. A start might be to stop looking back at the past and look to the here and now. Young lads lads should always want to play for their county and need to be encourageed to do so regardless of code or level of competition.

italia90
Junior B
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:42 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by italia90 » Mon May 20, 2019 9:42 am

Im on about the end outcome. People have been saying we need to concentrate on underageand get back competing. Its unrealistic. And suppose we have a great crop of youngsters come up. Then what. There is no guarantee they will stay playing in lower tiers. Thats based on the gaa basically ignoring these competitions. Ive no problem in principle with tiered competitions but the lack of promotion or television will kill any interest. The demands of inter county nowadays are huge. Nobody can tell me we will keep the majority of our better athletes when soccer rugby etc is promoted so much and as a smaller county all we can offer is maybe a dinnertime game on tg4 on a Saturday. The pride in the jersey fair enough we would all like to think is a given. Our youngsters heroes nowadays are not from within the county. This will get worse with less coverage afforded to our county teams

Square Cab
Intermediate
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by Square Cab » Mon May 20, 2019 1:32 pm

Substandard.......best post I've ever read on this forum
Every Offaly person has a responsibilty to help with this mess. Two very simple suggestions as follows;
1) Get out with your kids and get them kicking and pucking ball any chance you can
2) Not only drop them to training but stay and give whatever coach is there a hand out. I guarantee they will appreciate it

kingscounty
All Star
Posts: 873
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by kingscounty » Mon May 20, 2019 1:49 pm

substandard wrote:It's Kevin Martin's fault.
It's the County Board's fault.
It's the players' fault.
It's OCP's fault.
It's the underage fault.
It's the Development Squad's fault.
It's the South Offaly clubs' fault.
It's the North Offaly clubs' fault.
It's Tommy Burns' fault.
It's (insert previous manager's name) fault.
It's the Plan's fault.
It's the lack of a Plan's fault.
(Space to add targets as you wish).

I'm two years away from the Offaly club scene now- and because I'm an outsider and football- oriented, I'm probably not justified in commenting about Offaly hurling. Please stop reading at this point if you are so inclined.

I've been listening to talk and reading about the demise of Offaly hurling over 10 years now.
That's the span of a lot of inter-county careers. As I have listed above, pot-shots are taken at any number of targets at any given time. Some features more frequently than others.

It's very easy to take aim. The County Board- scheming away at new ways to drag Offaly hurling (and football) down. Kevin Martin- surely he runs any lad that can hurl, and deliberately tells players to do things badly for fear that they might win a game. The blame game is easy: all you have to do is say 'Shure they (management, whatever team or code) haven't a clue', and 'Shure the players are shite, they don't care about the jersey'.
Equally easy to blast about OCP vs Birr. The development squads. The schools.
Launch a rant about any of the above, and straight away you've made friends. Lads will back you up in the smoking section of pubs, or outside the local shop, or after mass- or on online chat forums. Women will, too. It becomes a way of life. It's easy, and it's dangerous. It fosters apathy, a culture of victim-hood, and it weighs down any effort to progress.
Does outrage make you a true Offaly GAA person? Does chest-thumping and railing about any of the failings of officials, coaches, players, etc show how much you care- more than any of the aforementioned? Immediately, self-righteous-ness is engaged. So you are a paid member of your club. So you've been doing this, that and the other for years. So you buy tickets and pay into every game you go to.
Well, hoo-haa. Big deal.
You see, you're responsible for the current state of affairs as well. You're partially culpable. You have contributed to the mess as well.
What- moi? Surely not- I do my best, all that I can. Sure I've no say in what happens day to day. I haven't time to get involved. That's someone else's job. I don't go to meetings. I drop the young lad off to training, or I bring him to matches now and again.

You see the dangers of the blame game. People go into defensive mode. And if you're in defensive mode, you'll look for excuses- someone else to blame. Spread enough blame around, and you create a toxic atmosphere. Everything grinds to a halt. Carlow are training teams, hurling and football. Likely with similar numbers to Offaly, in hurling and football- I'm talking county squads, not clubs. They've probably broadly similar numbers of coaches, probably with similar qualifications. But they're operating under the 'Carlow Rising' banner. They're operating in an altogether more positive atmosphere. Easier to coach in. Easier to play in. Easier to support.

Looking at problems, excuses and blame are easy. Solutions are not so easy. Start at the bottom is the easy suggestion, or put money into underage is another. See, these ones are higher order thinking variants of the blame game. If you say these, you show that you are sage and forward-thinking compared with the ranters and railers I was in about earlier. All good and well: start what at the bottom? Where is the bottom? What will money do in underage? Now, my sample size is admittedly very small- I've brought this up with three people I've spoken to. They were borderline evangelical when it came to stating what should be done, I.e. start at the bottom, and pump money into underage, but when pressed, it tailed off into a vague 'You know, coaching and stuff...'. In other words, they didn't know.
You see, this is the thing. In The Hitchhiker 's Guide to the Galaxy, the answer to the ultimate question of Life, the Universe and Everything was 42. A concrete, definitive answer- it was the question that lacked clarity. At the start of this, I listed as many of the usual causes of the problems with Offaly hurling as they get trotted out, off the top of my head. In thinking about solutions, you need to simplify the problem. Cut away all the hyperbole, and identify what can be done. What needs to happen at this point in Offaly needs to be new, radical, easy to implement, and most importantly, measurable.
While schools have a role and need to be addressed, the primary focus should be on clubs, and the onus is on clubs.
The standard of coaching and developing competitiveness has to improve dramatically in clubs. It may well be tough medicine for some, but I guarantee you, if you look at your own club, how many mentors are involved with teams that are just not good enough, or are stuck in the past, or are only there because no-one else will take on the role, or- and this is the most urgently in need of rectifying: the local legend who has always taken the u14s or 16s and won plenty of titles because he has always had one or two big lads or skilful lads to carry the team through, with zero development of skills or two-sides?
I have a suggestion that I think would help improve standards across the board at club level, but I've ran out of energy and time at this point.

There has been enough time spent/ wasted on blame. Solutions is what Offaly needs, not the same old, same old.
And now for the solution please

Fairplayalways
County player
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:12 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by Fairplayalways » Mon May 20, 2019 2:20 pm

having chatted an avid hurling fan who was at Saturdays game, he informs me even he has now accepted Offaly are "gone" for the foreseeable future. First touch was ferociously poor and fitness was, well he said he couldn't believe it. Coaching and fitness will of course fix the forementioned, but these are basics that anyone named in any team should have..we shouldn't be bemoaning them on forums here...

LooseCannon
All Star
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:31 am
Club: Coppers

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by LooseCannon » Mon May 20, 2019 6:01 pm

Bond?
"The greatest one in a row in history."

LooseCannon
All Star
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:31 am
Club: Coppers

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by LooseCannon » Mon May 20, 2019 7:15 pm

Joachim it is. That was fairly swift.
"The greatest one in a row in history."

kingscounty
All Star
Posts: 873
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by kingscounty » Mon May 20, 2019 7:32 pm

Sad to see Kevin Martin stepping down, it started so well with a super win against Dublin in Croke Park. All the best to Kevin who was an outstanding player and I have no doubt is a good manager and he will be back in a managerial role soon enough.

biffinbanner
County player
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:15 pm
Club: ferbane

Re: Joe McDonagh cup

Post by biffinbanner » Mon May 20, 2019 8:06 pm

were making headlines for all the wrong reasons.

Post Reply