Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Exiled in Connacht » Fri May 06, 2016 3:23 pm

Sorry for typo, under 21 game v Kildare is 25 May and not 22.

22 May we play Kerry in final senior qualifier game.
Exiled in Connacht
County player
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:06 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Fri May 06, 2016 5:12 pm

When I meant 'modern' game, really what I meant was a 'heads up' 'give the ball carrier an option' type game, as opposed to what Klare and Waterford practice currently. Brosna Gaels came from nowhere (literally) with an intelligent game where they worked for each other and ran off the shoulder. They thought. Shamrocks did that for a while in the mid 2000s. Tullamore of 2009 - 2010 had plenty of leaders too, Kelly & Keane at midfield, Mannion & Dagg in the half-backs and Martin & Egan at corner-back. As had Brosna Gaels at their peak.

And how many clubs in the south put in the hours that Brosna GAels do, with indoor hurling for the U8s and U10s etc in the hall during the winter months. Those in the south may scoff that the unnatural hurlers in Leamonaghan and Tullamore need to put in the practice and they don't. The reality is different.

Somewhere along, hurling became a team game as opposed to a game for 15 individuals (and hurling nationally is so much better for that) - Offaly haven't learned that yet.
Keiap wrote:Don't agree with your first post at all poth,Tullamore have won a county title in recent years and it wasn't done with the running hand pass game,shamrocks and brosna Gael have been nothing but wipping boys in senior hurling..Kilkenny are the best and most consistent team in the land and tipp are second over the years..they don't play this short possession game your on about..they also have individual top class hurlers that the team hurls around..
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
Plain of the Herbs
All Star
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:47 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby timber » Fri May 06, 2016 5:56 pm

Plain of the Herbs wrote:When I meant 'modern' game, really what I meant was a 'heads up' 'give the ball carrier an option' type game, as opposed to what Klare and Waterford practice currently. Brosna Gaels came from nowhere (literally) with an intelligent game where they worked for each other and ran off the shoulder. They thought. Shamrocks did that for a while in the mid 2000s. Tullamore of 2009 - 2010 had plenty of leaders too, Kelly & Keane at midfield, Mannion & Dagg in the half-backs and Martin & Egan at corner-back. As had Brosna Gaels at their peak.

And how many clubs in the south put in the hours that Brosna GAels do, with indoor hurling for the U8s and U10s etc in the hall during the winter months. Those in the south may scoff that the unnatural hurlers in Leamonaghan and Tullamore need to put in the practice and they don't. The reality is different.

Somewhere along, hurling became a team game as opposed to a game for 15 individuals (and hurling nationally is so much better for that) - Offaly haven't learned that yet.
Keiap wrote:Don't agree with your first post at all poth,Tullamore have won a county title in recent years and it wasn't done with the running hand pass game,shamrocks and brosna Gael have been nothing but wipping boys in senior hurling..Kilkenny are the best and most consistent team in the land and tipp are second over the years..they don't play this short possession game your on about..they also have individual top class hurlers that the team hurls around..


I can definately say tullamore and shamrocks never played a hand passing game. I think that tullamore and shamrocks for example could compete as well as they did in mid 2000s working off very little hurling preparation proves that club hurling must be weak. It should not have been possible to be competitive. Clareen scraping a win over them should not happen with the amount of hurling practice they would have. Thats just an example. Tullamore won a championship when they were knocked out of the football early. If they gave it a hugh effort every year then how many could they have won. The only team in south offaly as far as I can remember that really were able to bury an unprepared team was coolderry. The rest all struggled. Why I dont know only assume it was down to poor enough quality.
timber
All Star
 
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:53 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Sat May 07, 2016 1:40 am

Once more - I never said Tullamore or Shamrocks played a handpassing game.

And maybe there is something in you assessment of the relative weakness of club hurling in the 'hurling only' clubs'.
timber wrote:
Plain of the Herbs wrote:When I meant 'modern' game, really what I meant was a 'heads up' 'give the ball carrier an option' type game, as opposed to what Klare and Waterford practice currently. Brosna Gaels came from nowhere (literally) with an intelligent game where they worked for each other and ran off the shoulder. They thought. Shamrocks did that for a while in the mid 2000s. Tullamore of 2009 - 2010 had plenty of leaders too, Kelly & Keane at midfield, Mannion & Dagg in the half-backs and Martin & Egan at corner-back. As had Brosna Gaels at their peak.

And how many clubs in the south put in the hours that Brosna GAels do, with indoor hurling for the U8s and U10s etc in the hall during the winter months. Those in the south may scoff that the unnatural hurlers in Leamonaghan and Tullamore need to put in the practice and they don't. The reality is different.

Somewhere along, hurling became a team game as opposed to a game for 15 individuals (and hurling nationally is so much better for that) - Offaly haven't learned that yet.
Keiap wrote:Don't agree with your first post at all poth,Tullamore have won a county title in recent years and it wasn't done with the running hand pass game,shamrocks and brosna Gael have been nothing but wipping boys in senior hurling..Kilkenny are the best and most consistent team in the land and tipp are second over the years..they don't play this short possession game your on about..they also have individual top class hurlers that the team hurls around..


I can definately say tullamore and shamrocks never played a hand passing game. I think that tullamore and shamrocks for example could compete as well as they did in mid 2000s working off very little hurling preparation proves that club hurling must be weak. It should not have been possible to be competitive. Clareen scraping a win over them should not happen with the amount of hurling practice they would have. Thats just an example. Tullamore won a championship when they were knocked out of the football early. If they gave it a hugh effort every year then how many could they have won. The only team in south offaly as far as I can remember that really were able to bury an unprepared team was coolderry. The rest all struggled. Why I dont know only assume it was down to poor enough quality.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
Plain of the Herbs
All Star
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:47 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Keiap » Sat May 07, 2016 7:24 am

I would actually say we're competitive in club hurling.if you think we need to change it to football tactics that's your opinion I don't think that's necessary it's not that easy..a lot of clubs are toxic at the top not every young fella gets a fair crack of the whip.ive seen it all my life lads in on panels underage and better lads left off because somebody knows somebody,that has to stop
Keiap
Intermediate
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:25 am

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Sat May 07, 2016 9:58 am

You might call the playing of a couple of handpasses to open up space and change the angle of an attack - football; I call it - thinking your way around the pitch.
You might call the making a run to assist a colleague - football; I call it thinking your way around the pitch.
You might call a corner forward making a run into space - football; I call it - thinking your way around the pitch.
If Offaly persist with driving the ball as far as they can and without any regard for it's recipient, then the graph (which is now apparently out of control) is only going to continue downwards.

I do agree with you that selecting lads for squads because of family heritage (and not because of their own potential) is a contributing factor to the trajectory of said graph.
Keiap wrote:I would actually say we're competitive in club hurling.if you think we need to change it to football tactics that's your opinion I don't think that's necessary it's not that easy..a lot of clubs are toxic at the top not every young fella gets a fair crack of the whip.ive seen it all my life lads in on panels underage and better lads left off because somebody knows somebody,that has to stop
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
Plain of the Herbs
All Star
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:47 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Keiap » Sat May 07, 2016 10:34 am

What your saying there is fine but I think it can be taken way to far,to me a forward finding space and always moving is a natural thing and is what we do and always do in our club as with supporting all over the field..what I hate with some modern day teams is the way the sweeper system is over used.kilkenny do it in a very clever way and in a way it's not a sweeper..any of the forwards or midfielders could be back around the halfback line..Walter Walsh does it a lot tj at the start of his intercounty career was often in the halfback line helping out.the problem with a lot of our players is they don't think outside the box,the half forward line is the hardest working line on the field now,they have to be all over the field switching in and out..I've seen none of that with Offaly if there selected in a position they basically stay there.Thats not the case when they play with there clubs they do the movement they create space.thats the top 3 clubs over the last 20 years
Keiap
Intermediate
 
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:25 am

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby allstar2010 » Sat May 07, 2016 11:16 am

Keiap wrote:..what I hate with some modern day teams is the way the sweeper system is over used.kilkenny do it in a very clever way and in a way it's not a sweeper..any of the forwards or midfielders could be back around the halfback line..


Yep, spot on! "Modern" hurling is boring and unattractive with a lot of games now going to end 0-25 0-22 or something like it. Goals coming at a premium which leaves for terrible viewing, last weeks league final being an example. The problem with Offaly though is we don't seem to have any plan at all, even all the basics were non existent last weekend, woeful stuff.
allstar2010
All Star
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby allstar2010 » Sat May 07, 2016 11:16 am

Keiap wrote:..what I hate with some modern day teams is the way the sweeper system is over used.kilkenny do it in a very clever way and in a way it's not a sweeper..any of the forwards or midfielders could be back around the halfback line..


Yep, spot on! "Modern" hurling is boring and unattractive with a lot of games now going to end 0-25 0-22 or something like it. Goals coming at a premium which leaves for terrible viewing, last weeks league final being an example. The problem with Offaly though is we don't seem to have any plan at all, even all the basics were non existent last weekend, woeful stuff.
allstar2010
All Star
 
Posts: 360
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:42 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Toxicity234 » Sat May 07, 2016 2:23 pm

Lets start at the top.
Plain of the Herbs wrote:hurling has become more a team game now.

Kilkenny are the team to look at over the last 20 years of hurling and over the last 10 as well. So Kilkenny players are set so there forwards can win there only ball. Its the easy way to describe the Kilkenny game plan. With Defender that can deliver ball that isolate a forward one on one with a defender. The forward win the ball(or breaks it) and one midfield and the other forwards try to break on to into space around the ball winner. If be able to win your own ball is now a team game when Kilkenny play a team game.
It is the least completed game plan is hurling and by far the most successful over the last 20 years.

Plain of the Herbs wrote:Football involves more thinking, more guarding of possession. Hurling has gone this way in recent years and I think Tullamore, Brosna Gaels, Ballinamere and Shamrocks are better able to adapt to hurling becoming a team game.


One county title between the clubs in the last 10 years, Again Kilkenny don't know what a football is. Cork have brought 4 footballer into there hurling squad over the last 3 years and it hasn't help them. So back up your statement with something.

Plain of the Herbs wrote:The kind of hurling that is not being coached to the youth in Offaly's traditional hurling areas. The kind of hurling Francis Forde is promoting with St Rynagh's but they don't seem to get the hang of it. So an Offaly Senior team travels to face a Division 2A team and is completely bamboozled by an opposing forward line that moves around quite alot and is well able to pick short and medium range passes.

Francis forde is an excellent coach but as a manager has made the same mistake in the last 2 years. He picking team that carry the ball the problem is when they get turn over they get hammered. why because there defence is in midfield not in the defence.
The idea that a divison 1b team send it defence out to allow itself to be drag out of position so easily is a huge issue. Players not been give the responsible to make to decision to hold there position like the westmeath centre back did on sunday. The day of following your corner back following his man 100 yards out the field was done in the 70's.
But Offaly haven't figured that out.
Managing a team is like when Koopp said last night. "my job is to play as system to get the best out of every player"


Plain of the Herbs wrote:Those of older school persuasion bemoan the loss of spontaneity. But what Westmeath did last Sunday, or what the four dual clubs named above do IS spontaneous. And that nettle needs to be grasped and the penny needs to drop, and any other metaphor you like needs to be utilised in Offaly hurling.

Which is where outside help is needed as the expertise is not currently within the county.


well maybe the penny will drop for yourself. when Westmeath County board cross the boarder to pick up Danny Owens to manage then minor team. why. cause they felt the work he had done with Kilcormac Killoughey was of the higher order.

POTH you take every chance to have a cut at every club in the traditional hurling areas. The club you hold up as the example of excellent has won nothing in the last 20 years.
The progress team game you talk come from progress training. Some thing you showing that you don't anything about. runnung in a gym in athlone is the same as running in a gym in tullamore, Fitness test to make sure players are improving is progress.
as Alex Ferguson one said after a hammer "show me a losing team with team spirit and i should you a pack of lossers."
Again you use the example of Clare and Waterford as mordern hurling. The two county have one All ireland in the last 10 years.
the other 9 all Ireland have gone to teams playing the True Version Of Successful Modern Hurling

The idea that Clare and Waterford are the example and Kilkenny are not, The idea that Francis Forde is a better coach than Martin Forghty is pure tunnel vision to try to support your and some other journalist distorted view of hurling.

You came up with the term "Kilcormacology" to insult one of the best club in offaly at the moment. It was an attempt to belittle the club achievement over the last 5 years. its was sad attempt.

If Kilcormacology is a term some people use for there view on hurling in offaly. I got one for your view that insults every club hurler and manager in Offaly.
"Plainshit"
“Common sense is not so common.”
Toxicity234
All Star
 
Posts: 799
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:26 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby manfromdelmonte » Sun May 08, 2016 12:17 am

You play the system that best suits your players

modern Kilkenny under Cody have gone for big strong men all around 6ft who are willing to buy into the manager's system. Look at Walter Walsh - a poor enough player but he can dominate opponents, he would not have made Kilkenny teams in the past. Its all about power, dominating your opponent all around the field, denying space to the opposition to score goals and performing skills at a high level of pace.
Waterford are going down the same route - big men, cutting down the space, maximising scoring opportunities, carrying the ball and creating scores through pacey forwards who have space to operate in.
Clare however have a different set of players so they go for a much more mobile game, with short passing, moving the opposition's defenders around and using a very high skill set to create and take scores
Cork had their running and short passing game in the early to mid 00s which suited the players available coming from the Newtownshandrum style of play, the accuracy of their goalie and a brilliant athletic half back line

I would argue that Offaly also had a style in the 90s which was derived from the players available - high skill level, moving the ball fast and avoiding physical contests

Modern Offaly teams don't appear to have developed any real style of play
only the best...
manfromdelmonte
All Star
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:21 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby townman » Sun May 08, 2016 12:21 pm

Walter Walsh a poor enough player :roll: he was a top minor player in 2010 great under 21 player won the senior replay in 2012 and is one of the first on Codys teamsheet on match day wouldn't call that poor and he would be on any other county team in the country.
User avatar
townman
All Star
 
Posts: 1710
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 12:41 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby italia90 » Sun May 08, 2016 12:58 pm

the ball has finally dropped with some but i worry. the birr debate has come and gone, the k/k debate has come and gone, and here we are. i have been to a lot of club hurling and football for that matter and with due respect to players involved, the standard is not worth the entry fee. the sad reality is that the striking and general play is not up to the level a lot of contributors feel it is. birr, a team good enough to reach a county semi final scored 1-1 in 30 minutes in said semi final. coolderry couldnt cope with 'modern hurling' in leinster club. our underage pedigree is none existant. yet all this happened before eamon kelly took charge, now hes been blamed. and the cowards that rang him without providing identity to throw abuse around well the less said about them the better.
now theres a lot of decent people who use there head and write sensible posts here but there are some who bury their head in the sands. hurling is not the religion in offaly that some make it out to be. be honest compared to a decade or two back how often do you drive by your local gaa ground and see teenagers out on their own initiative. the county board are also in for criticism but i will reserve judgement because i for one wouldnt put my name forward for what is ultimately a poisoned chalice.
i watched game yesterday and was as worried about kerry game because our base at the minute means wiping out scoring difference is rarely going to happen. its goin to be a long road back hard work and an understanding that nowadays our best young talent dont have to play gaa as a given. they need to be coached not managed, encouraged not belittled.
italia90
Junior B
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:42 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Plain of the Herbs » Mon May 09, 2016 9:57 pm

To give you the undeserved courtesy of a reply –

I have read your post four times now and it makes no sense. The only thing I can deduce is that you assess things in a very ‘black or white’ way, when hurling is a whole spectrum of various shades of grey.

To contest my argument that “hurling has become more a team game now” using then example of Kilkenny football as an argument against smart use of possession and thinking your way around the field, well, that’s illogical. And an example of your stubbornness. Stubbornness is fine, but is can be a bad thing when it blinkers an open mind. And perhaps that is the problem with Offaly hurling as a whole – it’s got the blinkers on. And do you really think it is the ball from the defender that isolates the attacker with the defender? Dear, oh dear!

Because hurling is constantly evolving. Limerick brought the solo run onto play in the 1930s, Wexford brought catching in the 1950s, Galway were the first to really use the handpass in the last 1980s, Clare brought fitness and athleticism to new levels in the 1990s, Cork did what Cork did in recent years and Kilkenny did what Kilkenny did in the last 20 years. The one thing that has not changed is that forwards desire space – defenders abhor it. So everything in hurling is about making space for your forwards and denying the opposition space.

Moving along, Rynagh’s get turned over because they do not offer sufficient options to the ball carrier. Because they don’t think their way around the pitch. And the issue you describe is a coaching issue, not a management one. An extreme example, but hurling is not unlike snooker – you gotta think of the next ball and the one after that. And you gotta work your nuts off to get into the right positions..

I’ve no idea what ‘Koopp’ is, so we’ll leave that where it is.

I wish ‘d owens’ and the Westmeath Minors well for the remainder of this year’s campaign.

And doing gym training or lonely winter training on your own is NOT that same as doing it with a group of your peers. Item: last year Offaly U21s generally travelled to away challenge matches in fleets of cars. They hardly ever traveled together on a bus. That only enforces barriers and it stunts the development of team spirit. Team spirit – the bond that will see lads go out to die for one another. You will win nothing without it.

To say Clare and Waterford have one All-Ireland between them is something Townman would come out with. Excellence is a journey not a destination. Wait until someone lines out without a full-forward line. It’s gonna happen. Someone with an open mind would assess the opportunities from the way Clare and Waterford play. And anyway, their opponents will firstly need to assess it if they are to counteract it. Someone with blinkers will not.

You have a short memory if you don’t remember what ‘kilcormacology’ is. You should. Perhaps do a search for it using the search facility on this site. Blinkers again. It is not a put down of Kilcormac-Killoughey, and most regular contributors and lurkers know that. They know who the target of the phrase is too. And you conclude with a pretty weak put-down. I received better put-downs than that in the school playground 40 years ago.

I’ve spent far too long typing this, far longer than I intended. Too courteous. Beir bua!
Toxicity234 wrote:Lets start at the top.
Plain of the Herbs wrote:hurling has become more a team game now.

Kilkenny are the team to look at over the last 20 years of hurling and over the last 10 as well. So Kilkenny players are set so there forwards can win there only ball. Its the easy way to describe the Kilkenny game plan. With Defender that can deliver ball that isolate a forward one on one with a defender. The forward win the ball(or breaks it) and one midfield and the other forwards try to break on to into space around the ball winner. If be able to win your own ball is now a team game when Kilkenny play a team game.
It is the least completed game plan is hurling and by far the most successful over the last 20 years.

Plain of the Herbs wrote:Football involves more thinking, more guarding of possession. Hurling has gone this way in recent years and I think Tullamore, Brosna Gaels, Ballinamere and Shamrocks are better able to adapt to hurling becoming a team game.


One county title between the clubs in the last 10 years, Again Kilkenny don't know what a football is. Cork have brought 4 footballer into there hurling squad over the last 3 years and it hasn't help them. So back up your statement with something.

Plain of the Herbs wrote:The kind of hurling that is not being coached to the youth in Offaly's traditional hurling areas. The kind of hurling Francis Forde is promoting with St Rynagh's but they don't seem to get the hang of it. So an Offaly Senior team travels to face a Division 2A team and is completely bamboozled by an opposing forward line that moves around quite alot and is well able to pick short and medium range passes.

Francis forde is an excellent coach but as a manager has made the same mistake in the last 2 years. He picking team that carry the ball the problem is when they get turn over they get hammered. why because there defence is in midfield not in the defence.
The idea that a divison 1b team send it defence out to allow itself to be drag out of position so easily is a huge issue. Players not been give the responsible to make to decision to hold there position like the westmeath centre back did on sunday. The day of following your corner back following his man 100 yards out the field was done in the 70's.
But Offaly haven't figured that out.
Managing a team is like when Koopp said last night. "my job is to play as system to get the best out of every player"


Plain of the Herbs wrote:Those of older school persuasion bemoan the loss of spontaneity. But what Westmeath did last Sunday, or what the four dual clubs named above do IS spontaneous. And that nettle needs to be grasped and the penny needs to drop, and any other metaphor you like needs to be utilised in Offaly hurling.

Which is where outside help is needed as the expertise is not currently within the county.


well maybe the penny will drop for yourself. when Westmeath County board cross the boarder to pick up Danny Owens to manage then minor team. why. cause they felt the work he had done with Kilcormac Killoughey was of the higher order.

POTH you take every chance to have a cut at every club in the traditional hurling areas. The club you hold up as the example of excellent has won nothing in the last 20 years.
The progress team game you talk come from progress training. Some thing you showing that you don't anything about. runnung in a gym in athlone is the same as running in a gym in tullamore, Fitness test to make sure players are improving is progress.
as Alex Ferguson one said after a hammer "show me a losing team with team spirit and i should you a pack of lossers."
Again you use the example of Clare and Waterford as mordern hurling. The two county have one All ireland in the last 10 years.
the other 9 all Ireland have gone to teams playing the True Version Of Successful Modern Hurling

The idea that Clare and Waterford are the example and Kilkenny are not, The idea that Francis Forde is a better coach than Martin Forghty is pure tunnel vision to try to support your and some other journalist distorted view of hurling.

You came up with the term "Kilcormacology" to insult one of the best club in offaly at the moment. It was an attempt to belittle the club achievement over the last 5 years. its was sad attempt.

If Kilcormacology is a term some people use for there view on hurling in offaly. I got one for your view that insults every club hurler and manager in Offaly.
"Plainshit"
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
Plain of the Herbs
All Star
 
Posts: 2791
Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:47 pm

Re: Offaly v Westmeath, Mullingar, Sunday 1st May

Postby Anfearban » Tue May 10, 2016 11:42 am

There is a really interesting article in lasts Sunday's match programme CE v WD by Christy O'Connor on the amount of time a player has on the ball overall and how much time a player has each time he get the ball. Worth a read.
Anfearban
Junior A
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:09 am

PreviousNext

Return to Offaly GAA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 12 guests