Allianz Hurling League Roinn 1B 2016

[old yellar]

Hi all. Interesting debate on here as ever. I said I d throw my 2 cents in on the sweeper debate , minus any reference to specific offaly players.
I dont agree with the sweeper system myself. I think it generally only suits a v skillfull, quick and v intelligent team. Clare in my eyes are the only team.to have fully mastered it. They have forwards and midfielders who are able to cover the space and get scores. I think there backs are v disciplined in how they play and no ball is wasted coming out, with lots of short stick work and hand passes to get the most out of it. Waterford have de burca in the role and he does it well - saying that, its not rocket science that he should be the first man marked in their 7 backs by the opposition to mess up their plan and leave another man free. 5 v 6 against any team is a huge ask of your forwards. Again it worked for clare but look at their forwards 2 years ago. You are expecting 5 forwards to occupy/beat 6 intercounty backs, not good club ones. V hard. I dont think the sweeper works for some counties, not because of lack of trying it, but because of the players you have to work that system. I always wonder are you going out with a defensive/losing mindset when doing this? Are you saying, well we need extra cover at the back as we dont think we re good enough? Sometimes it is a case of man v man and winning your own battle. I dunno will a system ever replace this. I do feel you have to adapt styles of play but I dunno will this work for your hurlers. What are the stats for the games that you have played with it or without it? Both clare/waterford had a set man who played that role. Have ye a nailed on starter for this role? I ve seen 3/4 names mentioned as one. Putting an extra body in there at times can be as confusing as anything. Kind of reminds me of mayo v donegal in fball last year. Mchugh was named at wing forward and his marker on paper was lee keegan. Keegan ends up with 1 2, mchugh 0, and mchugh was brushed aside by oshea for a goal in his sweeper role/position. Sometimes old school is best!
Best of luck to offaly in 2016, and hopefully we ll give ye a good rattle in the round robin later in year in dr cullen.

[bracknaghboy]

Good to see you back posting Yeller. How are ye shaping up down there? Made heavy work of Kildare at the weekend but were a few missing I hear. Good to see Shane back at full back for ye class act. Dennis Murphy looks to getting a full run at the starting 15 this time. Overall have ye many to come back into the panel? I expect we'll have a right ol battle in May in Tullamore. I was at few championships games down there over the summer when visiting folks and am always impressed with the quality on show. As good as I've sen in Offaly to be honest.
On a sad note I see Peadar Jordan passed away a few days ago, he was a mighty man on the pitch in the 90's and early 00's. RIP.

[old yellar]

Yeah v sad. Just 44. Far too young.

We got over the line v kildare but it wasnt pretty. The hurlers are in the county but we definitely arent fielding a full hand at all due to every sort of reason, real and imaginary. But we ll tip away. Not at all confident of our chances in the round robin tbh with things as they are. Cest la vie! But we might get it together yet.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Couple of things -

If you went in as an outsider to manage a county team who conceded tallies of 5-23, 1-26, 0-26, 0-21, 5-32, 1-20, 5-25, 0-29 and 3-26 in their nine most recent championship matches, the first thing you'd do is attempt to shore up the defence. For that reason a seventh defender is probably the way to go. Offaly, in it's current state, can hardly afford to sniff at such a requirement.

Not a good plan to have the U21 goalkeeper involved with the Seniors. The U21s will hardly see him, the U21 management will have to try to build a defence without him with someone else in goals, and then they'll get him released from the Seniors a week before Leinster's first round.

[sam88885a]

Couple of things -

If you went in as an outsider to manage a county team who conceded tallies of 5-23, 1-26, 0-26, 0-21, 5-32, 1-20, 5-25, 0-29 and 3-26 in their nine most recent championship matches, the first thing you'd do is attempt to shore up the defence. For that reason a seventh defender is probably the way to go. Offaly, in it's current state, can hardly afford to sniff at such a requirement.

Not a good plan to have the U21 goalkeeper involved with the Seniors. The U21s will hardly see him, the U21 management will have to try to build a defence without him with someone else in goals, and then they'll get him released from the Seniors a week before Leinster's first round.

How many of those games did we play with a sweeper ????? we had one in nolan park rember .
Last sunday we gave up 2-21+16 wides+ a couple of goals chance that J Demsey saved , so we gave up almost 50 scoring chances during the game which is not far most games last year .
im not against the sweeper but it wasnt the game plan or sweeper that was our real problem last sunday ,it was the team that was picked .


as for the u21 goalkeeper involved with the seniors isnt the senior and u21 managment working together this year . ??
o mahon won titles at fullback for kk minors and u21in 2014 and 2015 and most kk fan see him as an option in defence maybe at corner back in the near future .

[kaiserchief]

sam88885a you surely must get sick of talking about kk and kk players on this forum

[Toxicity234]

LS
Laois 0-29 – 0-21 we play large parts of the game with a sweeper and 3 midfielders and forward in defence.
Clare 3-26 – 0-15 we play large parts of the game with a sweeper and 2 midfielders and forward in defence.
Kilkenny 5-32 - 1-18. Connolly played as a sweeper. did help that hanniffy couldn't walk. Morkan was centre back and we were a mess all over the field.
Antrim 1-20 - 2-19. we played with a sweeper for 50 mins. Morkan came on ran the game, we had they whole team playing in odd positions.
Tipperary 5-25 - 1-20. Played with a sweeper, Brady at centre back, Hanniffy at full back with 3 fractures in his knee but the sweeper was out around midfield and half back line.

4-9 - 0-26 Kilkenny No Sweeper. lost by a 5 points. 26 points isn't bad stopping Kilkenny scoring a goal is good work, our forwards didn't get into the game at all. Cathal Parlon was playing wing back.
1-14 - 0-21 Waterford. no sweeper, a game we should have won. a game we should have build from.
2–12 – 1–13 Wexford. No Sweeper, I think you left out that one.
3–15 – 5–23 Galway no Sweeper, Could have do with on that day.
Cork 1–26 – 2–16 another day we could done with the sweeper in the 1st half.

Yeah what we conceded isn't good but its only half the story. When you look at why we conceded so much.
Blaming the defence and not looking at the way the team was set up is like blame the cow for spilt milk.

[kaiserchief]

Good analysis Toxicity.

I think the free man is good for first few mins against stronger to adopt the pressure and settle into the game. We will never win playing like this for 70 minutes as teams adopt.

[old yellar]

I think clare/waterford have a different mindset to other teams. I think they use it with an eye/angle to winning, but others use it as a means not to conceed. Sounds strange I know! I m.not sure why some counties employ it and same with blanket defence etc. For us, it doesnt work in fball. We still loose, conceed as much, and score far less! I havent noticed some of the other smaller hurling counties like us use it when they made the step up to liam mccarthy. I just dont think we ve the players to do it. I really do think it needs an exceptionally talented bunch to pull it off. Kks game plan is simple to implement - everyone wins their own battle but be ready to support if needed.

[Plain of the Herbs]

It’s one thing playing with a sweeper (a phrase stolen from 1970s soccer), it’s another thing to do it right. Playing with a floating seventh defender isn’t going to guarantee anything unless it’s done right.

The floating defender needs to be very adept at reading the game. He needs to anticipate and to be present under every dropping, breaking ball. He needs a half-back’s instincts. He needs to make himself available for a pass when his own team are in possession, and he needs to be vigilant for unmarked attackers running into position when the opposition are attacking.

A floating defender isn’t necessarily defensive, unlike a sweeper in soccer, as the right man will create attacks and link up the play. As Waterford do quite well.

There’s always a chance that the floating defender will be taken completely out of the game by the opposition switching the play to avoid the ‘spare’ man, as often happens Dublin on their bad days. Which is why the adoption of a floating defender isn’t something a team decides to do a week before a match. Playing with a floating defender is something that can take years. So now, the League, is the place to develop it. It won’t guarantee success, there will be days when it will be a bit of a mess. But with the right hurler in the position, with the right coach and with proper video analysis, this can stop the rot at Senior inter-county level.

A point was made a few days ago regarding what to do when Leix play with a floating defender on Sunday, given the likelihood of five facing seven at each end of the pitch. Do you persist with your plan or do you abandon your plan and allow the opposition dictate? I think whoever blinks first on Sunday will be on the back foot immediately. I think you gotta stick to your plan. And maybe the thing to do would be to restore Bergin and Dooley close to goal in a two man full-forward line. Both are good in the air, both carry a goalscoring threat – fire it in high and often, bypassing Leix’ cover.

[Killeighman]

Does anyone know is Eoin Ryan of Coolderry on this years Offaly senior panel? I just saw he got a start with WIT today in the Fitzgibbon Cup lost to LIT. He was replaced after 32 minutes

[Conrad]

Its unfortunate for corner forwards. When a player gets sent off back the field they in turn get the curly finger

[kaiserchief]

Plain of Herbs you hit the nail on the head of what the floating man is. Unfortunately and no disrespect to the man Shane Kinsella in not that hurler. He is an out and out forward who is strong and pace and we are lacking these qualities up front.

If we play a floating man I think he should be the one that is the competitor for center back. 90% of the time the center back is the best reader of the game. See what Clare did last week. They brought their corner back to center on Collie Egan and David McInerney played as the floating man. He scores 2 points from play.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Thanks K.

I haven't seen Offaly hurl this year yet so I'll reserve judgment on SK as the floating defender, though I do agree he has forwards' instincts.

Plain of Herbs you hit the nail on the head of what the floating man is. Unfortunately and no disrespect to the man Shane Kinsella in not that hurler. He is an out and out forward who is strong and pace and we are lacking these qualities up front.

If we play a floating man I think he should be the one that is the competitor for center back. 90% of the time the center back is the best reader of the game. See what Clare did last week. They brought their corner back to center on Collie Egan and David McInerney played as the floating man. He scores 2 points from play.

[sam88885a]

plain of the herbs i think ur spot on a floating defender describes the sweeper system best .a guy who can read the game , has vision , be mobile , good defender, be able to link defence and forwards and score .
sounds like B Whelahan
r hanniffy would have been ideal in his prime for that role in my view too.
The current generation i think c doughan or c kiely might develope in decent floating defenders with proper coaching .