St. Vincent's Senior Team

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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:52 pm

Long John wrote:Cappincur have won a Junior and worked themselves to the bone to win that. These Cappincur lads deserve the right to see if they can push on and win an intermediate title now as Cappincur.


The only bit I would disagree with is this, in that I would temper it to say that the Capincur lads deserve the right to make their own choice. They have earned the right to play intermediate football as a stand alone club and they'd be entitled to consider themselves as in with a great shout - however it's their own club, so if they choose to forfeit that right, that's up to them.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby bracknaghboy » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:05 pm

I totally understand why some people would want to see a senior team in the area. But beware. It was done with St. Broughans in the mid 90's and ultimately ended in failure. Whatever anybody says you can take it from me that it will have a knock-on (inevitably negative) impact on the clubs involved. If I were from Cappincur I wouldn't dream of upsetting the progress that has and is currently being made by the club. Here are a few of my thoughts thinking out loud:

* The current long drawn out 6 team groups will do nothing to help their cause. Thats 5 group games with lads then having to line out for their individual clubs 36-48 hours later. Maybe 24 hours later. Wait til a vital player gets injured playing with Vincents.......it won't take long for people from the club concerned to turn against the whole idea.

* How would management of the team work? A selector from each club? I'll tell you what will happen, fella's will be pushing their own club players ahead of others and there will be no end to the rows and eventual resentment that will take place.

* The step up to senior will be massive. Lads that have been playing junior will find it hard going. A couple of hammerings and lads will want to concentrate on their individual clubs.

* The whole idea is try and push the aspirations of a few and is not for the overall good of the clubs. A few are trying to get playing senior and get into the Offaly shop window.

* Its becoming clear why Shamrocks were relegated despite nobody coming up from intermediate.....this was a set up to allow a potential Vincents team enter senior in 2012.

* I assume if Raheen, Killeigh and Killurin were to come together they would also be allowed to enter a senior hurling team???? Surely it wouldn't be one rule of one area and a completely different rule for others?

Ah yes 2012 will be interesting to say the least. Merry Christmas folks.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby jimbob17 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:25 pm

any news or developments on the vincents amalgamation lately. think it would be a great idea if the clubs were retained at their own level with players playing in both competitions senior with vincents and at junior/ inter with their own club. While i think it is more than possible in the vincents clubs due to the lack of hurling, i think it would be more difficult to conduct in the Killeigh parish where football and hurling both have a place. While i dont think it would be impossible there would be much more demand on the players with little recovery time between games as it would involve a lot of dual players. Ditto for senior hurlng incorporating Killurin if it was considered feasible, while i think it would do wonders for hurling in the north of offaly.. It would give the young na fianna hurlers something to look forward to...Cant see it happening though...
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby SearingDrive » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:31 pm

Killeigh has always been divided into hurling and football areas, the former around Killeigh, with football concentrated in the Geashill/Cloneygowan area.
In recent years Raheen entered a junior hurling team, Killurin have been a separate hurling club since 1985. Ballinagar are a junior football club.
An idea to enter a senior hurling team under Na Fianna was floated, but didn't get anywhere. Really this is the only way forward, but it might take a while.
A Killeigh team competed at Senior level in the '70's.
There was a time when a parish senior football team was allowed, players could line out at junior level for their own area, and play with the parish senior team.
I think this was changed by the Co. Board, maybe someone could confirm this.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby timber » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:53 pm

I would have to agree with the large majority who are against this. There is absolutely no way effectively a new adult club be set up and walk straight into senior championship football. I know from chatting with alot of people from various clubs that this could lead to alot of resentment as there is unquestionably favouritism towards the Daingean parish for whatever reason or friendships.

I agree with Bracknaghboy. This will belittle alot of players in the various clubs making up this amalgamation and could very well lead to some never playing the game again. I also agree that it is now looking like a set up the the county board denied Shamrocks the chance to stay up but are secretly trying to put together this amalgamation. The announcement of no relegation in 2012 was very strange on the back of that decision.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Ahlethimoutwithit » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:26 pm

This is a shambles.
Cappincur through their players have said no, and given that they would provide at least 6 starters for the Senior team one would think this is the end of it. Eh no! It is being pushed through now by the other 3, Ballycommon and Kilclonfert along with Daingean apparently want it to go ahead. There has been no definitive proposals as to how this has been run put to any of the clubs except,
1) It will be run by Vincents
2) Vincents have money to fund it but will need around 2k from each club?? Vincents have raised money to fund underage football, and have their problems there too. There has been no agreement that this will be funded from this kitty.
3) The clubs have been told that the Senior team will only train once a week, with no matches only the group stages of the championship. How are they going to compete and develop as a team?
4)If it is in the best interests of the younger players why are Cappincur not coming on board?
5) Anyone who is against it is being branded as a dinosaur internally and the fact that their are no concrete proposals as to how this is going to work is a red herring.

I fear that this is being put in initially as a token effort and eventually Cappincur will come on board next year or the year after. In the mean time there is a token effort pushing this through and I know for a fact some of the better footballers in 2 of the other clubs are uneasy about the way this is being done.
It is pointless if this team is not competing to its best level , will the 3 poor relations training as per 3 leads to anything other thab a dogfight for relegation??
Will it develop players, and in addition how many of the Cappincur players have accepted call ups to Offaly u21, and the only member of all the other panels is Ger Treacy called up to train with the Offaly Seniors.
The big issue is the lack of thought into how this will progress football!
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:59 pm

With Capincur, I thought the team would struggle to compete at senior, since after all, there's a lot more to being a successful senior team than getting 15 good players on the field. Without them, and with all these handicaps such as no league, once a week training and the junior clubs being given priority, this outfit is going to get destroyed at senior level, if it actually happens. What's more, it will kill off any prospect of this ever going ahead in the future. This isn't about Capincur coming on board in 2013 or 2014 - this cobbled together outfit will cease to exist by then. Let's bear in mind here that this is a group of players with no county seniors for the last decade or more, with no track record of underage success except for one under 12 title, and missing their most successful single ingredient in Capincur club. Above all, trying to do the whole thing on a shoestring won't help either. As for fundraising - I'm not from the area, but I guarantee now that there will be people who would have contributed to St Vincents as an underage club but won't do so now. Simply put, there is no reason to think that this would work.

This is what happens when things get rushed through without any real thought and it's a pity because it's going to be a lost year for the three clubs at junior, and it may kill off the interest of a lot of good footballers in the parish.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lean Times » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:24 pm

What rule is there stopping Cappincur players from playing if the 3 clubs do go ahead with this? None as far as I can see. I can see Cappincur players who do want to play coming on board if it is set up. There is a meeting on tonight between the 4 clubs to follow on from the clubs individual meetings over the christmas period.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby bracknaghboy » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:14 pm

Lean Times wrote:What rule is there stopping Cappincur players from playing if the 3 clubs do go ahead with this? None as far as I can see. I can see Cappincur players who do want to play coming on board if it is set up. There is a meeting on tonight between the 4 clubs to follow on from the clubs individual meetings over the christmas period.


I'm afraid this whole thing is so predicable. Potential for a club to vote no to the team yet some players deciding to play anyway!!! Surely the county board will be required to know exactly what clubs will/would make up this Vincents side and players from outside agreed teams could not participate. Jaysus could you imagine the uproar in Cappincur in they voted against it but a couple of their lads went and played anyway. The more I hear of this whole St. Vincents idea the more I think its madness. And if the team goes ahead without the Cappincur lads sure for feck sake they wouldn't win a game in the intermediate championship never mind make progress in the senior!
Right what needs to happen here is that the lads driving this need to step back and cool off. Going ahead with this now would be a disaster that could have very negative affects on the clubs involved. They should withdraw the idea for now and revisit it in 2 or 3 years time with a proper proposal agreed on by all clubs well in advance of any official county board discision being made.......at the very least they should give Cappincur a couple of years to see how they go in intermediate themselves. Who needs soap operas when we have these type storylines running in the county :D
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Ahlethimoutwithit » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:43 pm

It has finally ended for the moment! Was decided with Cappincur not coming on board that it would not be viable, and will be looked at after the championship.
I have to say that a lot of people on here have given reasonable comment on the reasons as to why it would not work. However there are some people who have no clear understanding of the importance of the club at whatever level to the GAA, whether it be Junior or Senior.
Firstly, in this situation there is no understanding of the effort that goes into playing Senior football, even if the standard is quite poor. And the reality in general in DAingean parish is that a lot of players have inflated ego's, and have not given as good a committment as they can to their clubs at Junior for the others and Intermediate for Kilclonfert and until last year Cappincur.

Basically if there was a real desire to develop football the clubs would amalgamate and each team would train together. I know many think this cant be done as who would want to vote themselves out of existance? But the reality is that in one parish at the moment you have 4 clubs running fundraisers, St Vincents trying to fundraise, and potentially a Senior team coming into the fray with big running costs.
Imagine of the whole lot rowed in together, the potential over a period of time would be huge.

However I fear that there will be a lot of recriminations as to who has held this up from happening, and they wont be able to pin this one on the "dinosaurs"!!
Cappincur people were driving this and their players would have been all for this last year. However now that they see a chink of light and a crack at Intermediate they have pulled away from it and to my mind rightly so, as this Senior team in its present format would be a distraction to their plans.
If there is a real ambition to drive this, the people behind it need to put concrete proposals on the table to the clubs and they need to have an argument as to how this is going to lead to player development. At the moment iI know of 6 players over the last 2 years who have been asked into Offaly u21 panels and have declined from Daingean Parish. I know there are many from different clubs also, but if the ambition is there surely players would not turn down the opportunity?

Lonesharks point about people from Vincents is a fairly valid one in many other clubs about the fundraising and some people maybe not being happy about this, but the issue with Vincents is that a lot of the people involved do not have a strong football background and are the classic parent brigade and they see only that their children are coming from an A grade football to playing Intemediate & Junior and feel they are being hard done by! Each of the players in the 4 clubs have won championships over the last 10 years and what has Vincents won? I would say their is a real need to look at the structures in place at Vincents and for the players in Ballycommon and Kilclonfert especially to have a look at their committment and to a lesser extent, Daingean.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby bracknaghboy » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:38 pm

So will Shamrocks get a repreive in relation to their senior status or will we have a crazy situation develope with an 11 team senior team championship and 13 team intermediate championship. One senior group would have 5 teams and one intermediate group would have 7. I just don't get the logic behind this if it is in fact going to be the case.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby jimbob17 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:14 am

while i am very much in favour of a Vincents team, and started this post initially, i am also of the opinion that the right decision has been made in the short term in not letting it go ahead. However, i do think that all 4 clubs should sit down and come with a proposal for next year and not have things rushed through. This could be a very exciting prospect for the area and OY senior football but it must be done correctly and with the full blessings of the clubs involved. Cappincur may have been the stumbling block, i dont know but i do know that some of their younger players would have relished it. If you take the four clubs and pick a few players from them, it would be great to see how the Carrolls, Dalys, NA Graham, Gethings and Treaceys (Cappincur) Jamie Hayes, Mangans, PJ Fay, Liam Brennan, Colm Kilmurray Daingean, Manns, Conneelys (and a few more younger Ballycommon lads that will come thro county minor in the next 2 years) and a few kilclonfert lads among others would acquit themselves at senior level. Most of these have played Minor and or 21 with Offaly in recent years. However, things need to be tied down properly with regards to who is going to manage and train the team to avoid partizan bias or negative rumblings among the junior and inter clubs, and the small issue of finance. Ideally there should be a neutral involved to ensure that "My Nephew Tom" doesnt get unfair or preferential treatment. These talks need to continue in the near future and sort things out properly and nail things down for the 2013 championship....
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Long John » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:23 am

bracknaghboy wrote:So will Shamrocks get a repreive in relation to their senior status or will we have a crazy situation develope with an 11 team senior team championship and 13 team intermediate championship. One senior group would have 5 teams and one intermediate group would have 7. I just don't get the logic behind this if it is in fact going to be the case.


No I would not think so. I doubt Shamrocks would want it at this stage. Pat Teehan made it obvious enough he wanted them gone so they have accepted that.
Teehan and the rest of the county board made this decision and I have to say im glad it has been shown up that they made a haimes of it. With the amount of players still unavailable in the club I dont think they would want senior football this year as a realistic ambition would be just holding their own in intermediate but not in the shake up as there is too many players not around.

I agree it is a crazy situation with the uneven numbers in both championships but shur was'nt that pointed out to them long ago and they ignored it.

As regards Vincents, it should never have been a runner for starters. Whenever they do put this amalgamation together, there is no way they should be let walk straight into senior. Like everything, you have to start from the bottom. So if its next year or in 5 years they still should not be let straight into Senior football.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby happy harry » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:15 am

i dont think any team has the right to start in senior as such. brigids tryn as hard as they can to get back ther and then a st vincent team come after winning nothing and go senior..?/? does not make sense.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:39 am

The most disheartening thing about all this for me is how very ad hoc the whole thing was. This never seemed like some grand plan, part of a blueprint for improving either the senior football championship or the standard of football in Offaly generally - it just seemed to be something that was cobbled together based on some pub talk from around Daingean and an opportunity that arose when Rhode won the intermediate championship. I can't say for certain, but nothing I've seen in all this suggests that the requisite amount of planning has been done - either within Daingean parish in terms of how to administer this and the long term future of the four clubs and St Vincents - or by the county board in terms of how this would be developed in the long run. How would it apply to Killeigh/Raheen parish, what would be done about footballers in other junior clubs, how to accommodate players playing both junior and senior championship, and also what to do with dual players.

For all the reasons covered earlier in this thread, I don't think a parish team in Daingean is the right way to go, either for the four clubs or for Offaly football generally - however I'd be willing to admit defeat if there was a clear and cogent argument as to how it's hoped it will work out. Not this fantasy football nonsense where inflated egos in the four clubs convince themselves that they have enough good players to come up with a good senior team and thus it should happen regardless, and to hell with the consequences.

It's time the county board sat down with themselves and came up with a clear plan as to what they want the Offaly SFC (and SHC) to look like in say, 2015. Do we want parish teams or not, do we want divisional teams or not, how many games do we want players engaging in, how will they fit into the calendar generally, and put it all down on paper and let the clubs vote. Lay out how we'll get from here to there, and then we'll avoid this typical GAA nonsense where a team finishes their season and suddenly finds themselves promoted/relegated etc even though they never knew what their target was at the start of the year.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
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