St. Vincent's Senior Team

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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby RhodeRunner » Sat Dec 17, 2011 8:09 pm

Proof that junior clubs don't hold you back at all. Saw Philip play for St Marys Edenderry yesterday against Moate in the North Leinster Colleges league final. He was outstanding, man of the match stuff.


ah here lone shark, very surprised at u for saying that. How is that proof? How many junior games do you think he has played with clonmore? Philip foy is an excellent footballer because of his training & games with Rod Og & St Marys over the past years.(plus its in his genes) When he passes the age of 21 and plays for 3 or 4 years just as a junior and if he's still the footballer he is now then ur comment would make some sense
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Vincents

Postby Long John » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:52 am

http://hoganstand.com/Offaly/MessagePag ... t=1#Latest

I see this topic is getting a mention again. The same lads probably.

For starters what gives them any right to think they should walk straight into senior if they did have an amalgamation.
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Re: Vincents

Postby Mysterious Arnold » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:43 pm

Long John (shtate of ya) you need to cop on and see the bigger picture.. You're obviously some idiot from one of the senior clubs that is scared sh1tless about a Daingean parish team forming and having the potential to do well in the competition.. Wake up and realise this is bigger than your pathetic opinion and bigger than your club!! this is for offaly's future in football and getting back to where we once were. Another senior parish team will broaden the talent of Offaly and develop 30 or so players more and more.. Your one of the many that are too wrapped up in their own little world to realise the bigger picture. I say go for it Vincents, drive on and shake things up a bit in this county, because it's high time someone did. We're all sick of the same old Rhode/Clara/Edenderry senior teams running the show. what good is that for anyone? none..
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:49 pm

RhodeRunner wrote:
Proof that junior clubs don't hold you back at all. Saw Philip play for St Marys Edenderry yesterday against Moate in the North Leinster Colleges league final. He was outstanding, man of the match stuff.


ah here lone shark, very surprised at u for saying that. How is that proof? How many junior games do you think he has played with clonmore? Philip foy is an excellent footballer because of his training & games with Rod Og & St Marys over the past years.(plus its in his genes) When he passes the age of 21 and plays for 3 or 4 years just as a junior and if he's still the footballer he is now then ur comment would make some sense


The point is that the lad has talent, and is clearly still improving. He can do so playing with his school he can do so playing with a college, and if he gets through all that, he'll be 22 and will be playing county senior by then, so his main development would be done outside Clonmore, just as a Rhode player would equally be spending more time with his college and his county.
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Re: Vincents

Postby Lone Shark » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:56 pm

Mysterious Arnold wrote:Long John (shtate of ya) you need to cop on and see the bigger picture.. You're obviously some idiot from one of the senior clubs that is scared sh1tless about a Daingean parish team forming and having the potential to do well in the competition.. Wake up and realise this is bigger than your pathetic opinion and bigger than your club!! this is for offaly's future in football and getting back to where we once were. Another senior parish team will broaden the talent of Offaly and develop 30 or so players more and more.. Your one of the many that are too wrapped up in their own little world to realise the bigger picture. I say go for it Vincents, drive on and shake things up a bit in this county, because it's high time someone did. We're all sick of the same old Rhode/Clara/Edenderry senior teams running the show. what good is that for anyone? none..


I've merged this topic because it's been covered plenty already, and in fairness, none of the key issues have been addressed - why should they saunter into senior at the expense of another club that has earned their place there, where would the funds come from and how would it work in conjunction with the existing intermediate/junior clubs in the parish, while still taking into account dual players, county players etc?

Also, can I ask the question, seeing as we are in AGM season - did this issue get raised at any of the four AGMs that may have taken place already, and if so, were any relevant motions put forth, and passed? Pub talk is all very well, but you're essentially asking four clubs to either vote themselves out of existence, or vote themselves into second class status where they can never be senior by themselves without breaking up another team and causing ill will.


By the way I'm sure Edenderry people will be highly amused to be considered part of the "same old" after going ten years without success and going intermediate in the meantime!
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby True Red » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:58 pm

By the way I'm sure Edenderry people will be highly amused to be considered part of the "same old" after going ten years without success and going intermediate in the meantime!


To say edenderry are part of the establishment would be a small bit of an overstatement indeed. With Tullamore's 26 titles and Rhode 24 it would be more appropiate to ordain those clubs as football royalty within the county.

Although we are up there with 10 titles along with Ferbane's 11 and Walsh Island's 12 and indeed Clara's 6 we would never admit to been part of the old boys club!! :wink:
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Re: Vincents

Postby Lean Times » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:18 am

Lone Shark wrote:
Mysterious Arnold wrote:Long John (shtate of ya) you need to cop on and see the bigger picture.. You're obviously some idiot from one of the senior clubs that is scared sh1tless about a Daingean parish team forming and having the potential to do well in the competition.. Wake up and realise this is bigger than your pathetic opinion and bigger than your club!! this is for offaly's future in football and getting back to where we once were. Another senior parish team will broaden the talent of Offaly and develop 30 or so players more and more.. Your one of the many that are too wrapped up in their own little world to realise the bigger picture. I say go for it Vincents, drive on and shake things up a bit in this county, because it's high time someone did. We're all sick of the same old Rhode/Clara/Edenderry senior teams running the show. what good is that for anyone? none..


I've merged this topic because it's been covered plenty already, and in fairness, none of the key issues have been addressed - why should they saunter into senior at the expense of another club that has earned their place there, where would the funds come from and how would it work in conjunction with the existing intermediate/junior clubs in the parish, while still taking into account dual players, county players etc?

Also, can I ask the question, seeing as we are in AGM season - did this issue get raised at any of the four AGMs that may have taken place already, and if so, were any relevant motions put forth, and passed? Pub talk is all very well, but you're essentially asking four clubs to either vote themselves out of existence, or vote themselves into second class status where they can never be senior by themselves without breaking up another team and causing ill will.


By the way I'm sure Edenderry people will be highly amused to be considered part of the "same old" after going ten years without success and going intermediate in the meantime!


It is actively been discussed at the minute with the county board pushing the 4 clubs to discuss it. Meetings have already happened between two committee members from each club. There have been player meetings, and discussions at AGMs. From what I have heard there are positive vibes from all four clubs. A lot will be told within the next 3 weeks.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Long John » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:37 am

Lone Shark wrote:
Mysterious Arnold wrote:Long John (shtate of ya) you need to cop on and see the bigger picture.. You're obviously some idiot from one of the senior clubs that is scared sh1tless about a Daingean parish team forming and having the potential to do well in the competition.. Wake up and realise this is bigger than your pathetic opinion and bigger than your club!! this is for offaly's future in football and getting back to where we once were. Another senior parish team will broaden the talent of Offaly and develop 30 or so players more and more.. Your one of the many that are too wrapped up in their own little world to realise the bigger picture. I say go for it Vincents, drive on and shake things up a bit in this county, because it's high time someone did. We're all sick of the same old Rhode/Clara/Edenderry senior teams running the show. what good is that for anyone? none..


I've merged this topic because it's been covered plenty already, and in fairness, none of the key issues have been addressed - why should they saunter into senior at the expense of another club that has earned their place there, where would the funds come from and how would it work in conjunction with the existing intermediate/junior clubs in the parish, while still taking into account dual players, county players etc?

Also, can I ask the question, seeing as we are in AGM season - did this issue get raised at any of the four AGMs that may have taken place already, and if so, were any relevant motions put forth, and passed? Pub talk is all very well, but you're essentially asking four clubs to either vote themselves out of existence, or vote themselves into second class status where they can never be senior by themselves without breaking up another team and causing ill will.


By the way I'm sure Edenderry people will be highly amused to be considered part of the "same old" after going ten years without success and going intermediate in the meantime!


Mysterious Arnold you need a reality check. No amalgamation has the right to simply walk into senior. You have to earn it. In my opinion any new start up should start from scratch in Junior. You have some neck to be of the opinion ye should be there automatically. Quiet arrogant really. And I think LS has highlighted why it is completely wrong better than I could.

The laugh of it all is I have some good friends who played with Cappincur this year and they were of the opinion that other players from outside their club are trying to jump on their success this year because they have not been able to win anything themselves.

Cappincur earned their right to play intermediate football, the other parish teams have no right and and thats the bottom line.
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Re: Vincents

Postby Lone Shark » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:06 am

Lean Times wrote:It is actively been discussed at the minute with the county board pushing the 4 clubs to discuss it. Meetings have already happened between two committee members from each club. There have been player meetings, and discussions at AGMs. From what I have heard there are positive vibes from all four clubs. A lot will be told within the next 3 weeks.


Cheers for the update - appreciated.

I'm impressed that there is even preliminary consensus on such a divisive issue as this. Essentially all the four clubs are signing away any realistic prospect of becoming senior individually, and that wouldn't be easy to do, particularly a club like Daingean that would still have club members that would remember winning two senior championships. If the club members want it, then of course it should happen - but equally, I'd be interested in the mechanism that's being proposed.

That leads me on to my follow on question - if the county board is pushing it, what are they offering, and have they been authorised to offer anything? For example, are the four clubs discussing on the basis that they'll walk into senior, and if so, what will be the knock on effects and have these been authorised by the county board as a whole?
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby llkj » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:59 am

Probably not a bad year to try it, if they are going to ever trial it, seeing as there is 1 less team in Senior this year. Obviously there are some logistics and fixtures stuff to sort out, but I haven't seen anything that I would see as a major roadblock that couldn't be dealt with, if the will is there from respective clubs and CB.

Also, I don't believe that such a move would mean that all four clubs are signing away any realistic prospect of becoming senior individually. I can see what arguments there might be for taking that point of view, but equally, you could argue that it would actually assist some of the clubs in reaching that level.

If it does happen, one positive note will be that it will give us something different to talk about this time next year, rather than the old St. Vincents amalgamation checknut.
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Re: Vincents

Postby Lean Times » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:28 pm

Lone Shark wrote:
Lean Times wrote:It is actively been discussed at the minute with the county board pushing the 4 clubs to discuss it. Meetings have already happened between two committee members from each club. There have been player meetings, and discussions at AGMs. From what I have heard there are positive vibes from all four clubs. A lot will be told within the next 3 weeks.


Cheers for the update - appreciated.

I'm impressed that there is even preliminary consensus on such a divisive issue as this. Essentially all the four clubs are signing away any realistic prospect of becoming senior individually, and that wouldn't be easy to do, particularly a club like Daingean that would still have club members that would remember winning two senior championships. If the club members want it, then of course it should happen - but equally, I'd be interested in the mechanism that's being proposed.

That leads me on to my follow on question - if the county board is pushing it, what are they offering, and have they been authorised to offer anything? For example, are the four clubs discussing on the basis that they'll walk into senior, and if so, what will be the knock on effects and have these been authorised by the county board as a whole?



As far as I know the idea is initially being based on a one year trial basis and currently, models from outside the county are being looked at to see what exactly would be required from the four individual clubs finance wise and resource wise. The proposal will be put in front of the county board if it gets that far and will be voted on to place a parish team in senior ranks. I can see this being argued with Brigids and Shamrocks.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:05 pm

I'm not sure if I'd be that worried about Brigids objecting, however I would expect that Raheen/Killeigh/Ballinagar will be watching with interest. After all, surely if this offer is extended to Daingean parish, it would have to be offered to them too?
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Long John » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:46 pm

Well if its the county board trying to push this along alot of questions have to be asked. Why are they so interested in the Daingean parish and as LS pointed out why not the Killeigh parish? Seems to be alot of favouritism going on for some strange reason. There should be uproar in Killeigh parish if the county board go ahead with this.

Yes I am sure St Brigids would be infuriated by this. The fact the majority of lads that couldnt win a junior A title are being rewarded with senior status. Brigids players came within a whisker of winning the intermediate and then other players who couldnt reach a final of an inferior competition are given the reward at the end of the year. Would Shamrocks be aggieved. Yes I am sure they would. They had requested to stay up when Rhode won the intermediate but accepted the decision and moved on despite been backed by other club delegates. Mr Teehan's ruling could look very suspicious now if he pushes this amalgamation through. Why else was he so keen to make it an uneven number championship.

As with anything in life, I think you have to earn it. And for the main part in this case theres alot of players looking like their been given a handy ride into senior football. It speaks volumes about the current state of Offaly football. They want the success but they dont want to work for it. Hand it to them on a plate.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:54 pm

My own utterly personal view on this is that if a St Vincent's side went into senior next year, they'd get something of a rude awakening as to the standard that's required. There are those that disagree with me, but all I can say to that is that I've priced a lot of these kind of teams before, and of all the senior clubs out there, there isn't a single one that I would make St Vincents odds on to beat. Maybe 10/11 or 5/6 against Erin Rovers, Ballycumber or St Rynaghs, but even at that I'd be backing the west Offaly club in each case.

I actually don't think it's the right thing for the club, and certainly not if it's being pushed through at haste, as seems to be the case here. Nonetheless as a member of an existing senior club, my own view is that if the club members of the four teams involved want to do this, I'd let them at it. I genuinely don't believe it's the right answer for them. If they get relegated, what then - do they give up?

Just to pick up a few other points:

@ llkj - I understand that there are two points of view here, however if you do create a "St Vincents" senior team, they will have a squad of approximately 25-30 players, drawn from the four clubs. Since senior championship would be on the same weekends as junior/intermediate, it means that either the amalgamation of the clubs have to get preference in terms of training time, and match scheduling. Players will be playing junior/intermediate championship as little as 36 hours after playing senior. That was what caused Ballyroan Gaels in Laois to go from being a combined senior team to being an all out amalgamation - so I definitely believe that if this goes ahead it will either fail spectacularly, in which case players will be disillusioned, or it will work, in which case they're only ever going to be junior clubs or possibly even cease to exist entirely.


Just to flesh out the whole thing about how they're likely to get on, here's all the championship games this year in Kerry where a club team played divisional teams.

Dr Crokes 2-8 vs 0-9 Mid Kerry Final
Dr Crokes 0-13 vs 1-9 West Kerry Semi-Final
Rathmore 0-7 vs 0-15 Mid Kerry Quarter Final
West Kerry 1-10 vs 0-8 Kerins O Rahillys Quarter Final
East Kerry 2-7 vs 1-8 Dingle Quarter Final
South Kerry 0-5 vs 0-11 Dr Crokes Round 3
Dingle 2-12 vs 3-8 St Kierans Round 3
Legion 1-10 vs 0-15 East Kerry Round 3
Shannon Rangers 1-14 vs 1-7 St Michaels/Foil Round 2
Legion 0-11 vs 1-4 St Brendans Round 1
Rathmore 1-8 vs 0-8 West Kerry Round 1
Mid Kerry 0-12 vs 0-8 Dingle Round 1
St Kierans 1-8 vs 1-7 Kenmare Round 1
Laune Rangers 2-9 vs 1-16 East Kerry Round 1
Feale Rangers 1-11 vs 1-6 Kilcummin Round 1

Now, the overall record reads 9-6 to the divisions - which suggests a strong performance. However bear in mind that (a) each of these divisions are long established, with frameworks in place (b) With the exception of Feale Rangers and to a lesser extent Shannon Rangers, hurling is not an issue for any of them, and largely speaking hurlers are ignored. (c) On average, they contain 7/8 clubs, many of whom would be a very high standard. Dromid Pearses will probably win the All Ireland junior football championship this year, and they make up just four or five guys in South Kerry, while Milltown Castlemaine are 50/50 to win the All Ireland intermediate, and they have about 5 players on the Mid Kerry team.

Yet despite all these advantages, they struggled to get past club sides in Kerry, which while good, aren't actually outstanding, with the exception of Crokes. Other than Crokes, only one Kerry club has won the Munster club championship in nearly 20 years, and their reps actually only have a middling record against club winners from Clare, Tipp and Limerick. So it's not the case that you need to be brilliant down there, though obviously the general standard is high.

My point it that amalgamated teams, due to all the difficulties they face, have to be seven or eight points better than their opponents on paper in order to be able to win by one or two on the field of play. There are some fine young prospects in St Vincents and I hope they continue to develop, but this is a club that wasn't even able to win anything other than one under-12 championship, they have no competitive intermediate team to backbone their side, and people think they're going to go well at senior? This bookie strongly, strongly disagrees.
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Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Long John » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:15 am

How they would do in Senior is not the issue here. They have no god given right to be placed straight into Senior football. Not one of them have won an intermediate championship yet. Cappincur have won a Junior and worked themselves to the bone to win that. These Cappincur lads deserve the right to see if they can push on and win an intermediate title now as Cappincur. They have earned it and it would be stupid to break them up as a squad. The other clubs in question have no right to be in intermediate football nevermind senior.

If they want to play as an amalgamation then it has to start at Junior A level. If its passed any other way, then the county board are thicker than we expected and Offaly football will remain miles behind with this put it on a plate attitute.
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