St. Vincent's Senior Team

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.

Lost in the Bog

Postby jimbob17 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:41 pm

Been thinking about this lately and looking at the way other counties do things. In OY there is a tendency only to pick lads playing senior fball with their clubs. However, there is a massive area which is actually at the epicentre of OY football where players have no opportunity to play senior. The junior and inter clubs between Tullamore and Rhode, Portarlington and Mountmellick is where an awful lot of talent goes missing.

Many underage players are the best co minors in the past 10 years and get lost after minor from playing with local junior and inter clubs in these areas, thinking Clonbulloge, Raheen, Killeigh, Ballinagar, Cappincur, Daingean, Brigids, ballycommon kilclonfert etc etc. You could also add Ballinamere Durrow and Kilcomac to that with Conor Mahon and Dan Currams. I know for certain that there are lads capable of playing co senior in these clubs, ie fellas who starred at minor and 21 level and are now lost in the bog!! Look at Cork. They will pick a lot of lads from junior and inter clubs , ditto kerry ie Declan O Sullivan etc., Meath have also done so with their best defender from Ballinabrackey.

Who are these players, ie the equivalent of the Frank Weirs of 15 years ago that are capable of playing co senior. One prime example is Noel Andrew Graham, I can also think of Padraig Bracken from Raheen, but i know that there are many more like them in their early or mid twenties that would be given a shot with the seniors if they were playing at a higher level and getting more exposure with their club!!
Can people in those areas make suggestions without bias.
jimbob
jimbob17
All Star
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:40 am

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:46 am

I don't know that it's necessarily the case that there is a bias towards senior clubs in terms of picking county teams. Yes a lot more senior club players get picked, but it's no coincidence that these clubs are senior and that some of the ones you listed aren't - it's because while they might have a larger pick, they also train better, prepare better and players improve for being in that environment.

I'll be honest and say that there could be individual footballers with Ballinagar or Kilclonfert that I don't know much about, but these areas have as much to pick from as Erin Rovers or Croghan - but yet they don't deliver. That's why you'll see Erin Rovers and Croghan players picked regularly enough, but not Ballinagar or Kilclonfert. A club is only as successful as the players they have, and the people that run the show. If there was the equivalent of a Niall McNamee, Richie Dalton or Sean Pender playing football down there, he'd be standing out like a sore thumb.

Every years managers trawl the county and players from these low intermediate/junior clubs get called in, and every year the same senior guys end up staying on the panel. I really don't think that there's any hidden pot of gold out there.

Unless you were talking about amalgamations, in which case this is the thread that covers it all:
http://www.uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5444
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
User avatar
Lone Shark
All Star
 
Posts: 5077
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Back Home!

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Ahlethimoutwithit » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:28 pm

Harsh indictment there lads! I think the big issue in Offaly why lads are lost is that not enough of the key players go on to play with 3rd level college teams.
And interestingly you point out the example of Noel Andrew & Padraig Bracken??? How are these guys lost? Its the exposure they have gotten through their clubs that has gotten them into the county shake up. So because Noel Andrew drove his team on to win a Junior final, (his first club medal I think and may top anything he wins in terms of enjoyment!) he will get his chance with the U21 panel. But I would suggest if he had played well and Cappincur had narrowly avoided relegation he would also get a call up.Bracken has earned his chance through hard graft with the club, and will do well next year in terms of game time.
There are a number of players who suffer because of clubs not putting in the effort, but similarly look at the clubs who suffer because of younger guys feeling Junior or Intermediate is a step down?
I will only mention Clonmore Harps who were relegated this year, could they have stayed up with the 2 lads on board?

Most players of note in Offaly get a chance with the county, but Clubs do need to up the ante in Offaly to try and raise the standard of player, but that also applies at Senior level.
I would argue that its not the level of football you play at but your committment to your club & training that offers you a path to Intercounty. If you drive your club team on at whatever level, and you have featured on an underage panel, you will get a chance. There is a bigger issue at all levels in Offaly with the level of fitness & committment required to play club and whats necessary for county football, (obviously!!) and this is probably the issue to be explored.
Maybe a guy coming from minor should go onto a development program where he is trained with a similar group to fasttrack them to Senior county fitness & strength??
I dont agree with amalgamations in general as they are the easy option without addressing the core problem, and will eventually if not done right, reduce the number of players playing which is not the main objective.
Ahlethimoutwithit
All Star
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:40 pm

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby jimbob17 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:32 pm

Lone Shark wrote:I don't know that it's necessarily the case that there is a bias towards senior clubs in terms of picking county teams. Yes a lot more senior club players get picked, but it's no coincidence that these clubs are senior and that some of the ones you listed aren't - it's because while they might have a larger pick, they also train better, prepare better and players improve for being in that environment.

I'll be honest and say that there could be individual footballers with Ballinagar or Kilclonfert that I don't know much about, but these areas have as much to pick from as Erin Rovers or Croghan - but yet they don't deliver. That's why you'll see Erin Rovers and Croghan players picked regularly enough, but not Ballinagar or Kilclonfert. A club is only as successful as the players they have, and the people that run the show. If there was the equivalent of a Niall McNamee, Richie Dalton or Sean Pender playing football down there, he'd be standing out like a sore thumb.

Every years managers trawl the county and players from these low intermediate/junior clubs get called in, and every year the same senior guys end up staying on the panel. I really don't think that there's any hidden pot of gold out there.

Unless you were talking about amalgamations, in which case this is the thread that covers it all:
http://www.uibhfhaili.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5444



Dont know what you are trying to say lone shark and maybe you are misunderstanding my point. Obviously if you are getting a higher standard of club matches itll bring you on. My point is that there are plenty of lads at junior level that would be capable of playing senior but arent because they are not in the shop window. Dan Currams and Conor Mahon were 2 of the main players in a minor team a few years ago that played in a leinster minor final. they have gone with the hurlers but if they werent they would be lost to the football because their club is junior football. Loads of lads exist in broughans vincents and na fianna underage that only play junior or inter at adult level. However plenty of these lads will not or never get the opportunity to play higher level because the lads around them arent good enough. That doesnt disguise the fact that they might have one exceptional talent. eg Phillip Foy of clonmore harps was captain of the co minors this year. will he be considered for senior in 3 years time if he is only playing junior or inter football then. and if he is not there, why does one deteriorate from being one of the best his age in the county to not featuring at all at co level. NA Graham was captain the year before and head and shoulders the best player at minor in OY last year. where will he be in 5 years??

If Cappincur didn get past the semis of the junior this year would all of them be looked on differently despite the fact that they have produced plenty of co minors in the last five or six years, 5 or 6 in fact and some who have been key players. They should have been beaten by killeigh in the quarter, therefore killeigh must have one or 2 lads that are good. In every club there is a potential county senior player i believe. just because he isnt there at the moment doesnt mean he can never get there.

My point is that they are there for definite, but just havent been given the right type of exposure to elite level training and thus no longer become options after a while and this is where things fall down for them. People in these areas know very well how some of the more powerful clubs dictate the co scene. my question to people in those areas is who are these players??
jimbob
jimbob17
All Star
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:40 am

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby 57118 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:54 pm

agreed, there are county footballers in every club, they just need guidance
57118
Junior C
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 3:11 pm

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:31 pm

I don't disagree for a minute that there are plenty of junior players who would improve immensely if they had the chance to play at a higher level. However I'm not really sure what you're suggesting - that slots be held open on the Offaly senior panel as a sort of a"Junior Club Outreach Programme"?

The county management have the responsibility to pick the best players available to them, and to try and improve them all. It's not for them to say that Player A is a better footballer than Player B now, but player A has had the advantage of playing for Rhode while Player B is from Clonmore Harps, so we should give the slot to player B out of fairness. It's not like junior club players aren't getting their chance, but they're called in and every year most of them are sent back to where they came from simply because at a higher standard, they don't cut it. Maybe they would improve if they were playing senior championship all the time, but on the other hand maybe they would improve if they weren't looking around them for excuses and instead took it on themselves to drive their club onwards.

When Ciarán McManus came on the scene Tubber were a poor intermediate club. Doon were playing junior when Vinny Claffey came along. Three weeks ago Dromid Pearses were in the junior final in Kerry - Declan O'Sullivan played at centre forward, scored four points, covered in the backline and generally put in what was reported to be a ridiculous performance to get his team over the line, a team that lost five starting players to emigration at the start of the year. Of course there were other players around them, but those guys played a huge part in driving their club onwards by taking on leadership from an early stage. Capincur now has a fine crop of young footballers, better than the vast majority of senior clubs in the county. Add to that some capable existing players like Ger Treacy and Peter Daly and they have every potential to be a good intermediate team and maybe even win that grade in the next few years. The Carlow team that they beat last week was an intermediate club after all. Of course they would improve for being called into county panels, but they'll all go to college soon and have the chance to play freshers and then Sigerson football, and they'll learn plenty there too and if they can cut it at that grade, then they'll have earned their place on the county senior set up - not just taking charity. If those guys take that chance, then they'll end up playing senior football, simply because they'll bring it about in Capincur themselves.

I'm not trying to be confrontational and I see your point that it is a natural handicap for some lads to be born into clubs that aren't playing at a high level. However unless we create a Kerry-like system, which has been debated to death on the other thread, creating parish sides in Daingean or Killeigh will only see other senior clubs relegated, so it's a zero sum game. Also, this isn't like the Indian caste system where you are born at a certain level and there you will stay. If your club is playing at a lower level and you, as an individual feel that you'd be capable of playing county football, you should be playing a leading role for that club and being the difference between winning and losing games.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
User avatar
Lone Shark
All Star
 
Posts: 5077
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Back Home!

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:40 pm

Dan Currams and Conor Mahon were 2 of the main players in a minor team a few years ago that played in a leinster minor final. they have gone with the hurlers but if they werent they would be lost to the football because their club is junior football.


If Dan Currams and Conor Mahon wanted to focus on football, and they put the effort into football because they wanted to play county for Offaly, Kilcormac/Killoughey would not be a junior club, and they would not be lost. I'm not blaming the lads for their choices, but you're confusing cause and effect here by saying that county standard players are lost playing for junior clubs when in actual fact the reason that they are junior clubs is because they aren't county standard players.

Phillip Foy of clonmore harps was captain of the co minors this year. will he be considered for senior in 3 years time if he is only playing junior or inter football then. and if he is not there, why does one deteriorate from being one of the best his age in the county to not featuring at all at co level.


Clonmore Harps have a ridiculously small pick even by Offaly standards and I am slightly more sympathetic to them than I would be most other clubs, and Phillip is an incredibly well rounded, talented and motivated young footballer, the type that could go as far in the game as he wants. I spoke with him a few times last year and he's a very impressive individual. However if he wants to play county football in three years, the stage that he needs to prove himself on is the college stage. He needs to play Freshers, train with Sigerson panels as soon as he can and put his focus into improving himself as much as he can. (I'm presuming he went to college??) If he does that, he'll stand out like a sore thumb at junior level and will get his chance.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
User avatar
Lone Shark
All Star
 
Posts: 5077
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Back Home!

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby True Red » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:45 pm

(I'm presuming he went to college??)


Philip Foy is still in St Mary's Edenderry and training hard for the 1st round of Leinster A Colleges in January........
If you don’t stand for something you fall for anything
True Red
All Star
 
Posts: 739
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:25 pm

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby jimbob17 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:17 pm

Lone Shark wrote:
I'm not trying to be confrontational and I see your point that it is a natural handicap for some lads to be born into clubs that aren't playing at a high level. However unless we create a Kerry-like system, which has been debated to death on the other thread, creating parish sides in Daingean or Killeigh will only see other senior clubs relegated, so it's a zero sum game. Also, this isn't like the Indian caste system where you are born at a certain level and there you will stay. If your club is playing at a lower level and you, as an individual feel that you'd be capable of playing county football, you should be playing a leading role for that club and being the difference between winning and losing games.


Unfortunately some of our co senior players have chosen not to go to third level and the only football they get is with their club. In fact Offaly has the lowest percentile of any county of young people going to third level. Many of the existing senior players never played sigerson or 3rd level football. While i agree that this is a great stepping stone, it is not an option for some people as they have gone into trades etc in the past.

Therefore your suggestion of parish sides is a good one and could be accomodated like they do in cork and kerry, where junior or inter club players may play senior with the divisional side. It doesnt have to be a reason for other senior clubs to go back to inter. Why not increase the amount odf senior clubs from 12 to 14 or even 16 with 4 groups of 4 with divisional sides from vincents area, raheen Na Fianna, Ballinamere Durrow etc playing senior. they dont have to play league but just enter the championship at senior and train in the early months with their respective clubs for the junior championship. Surely this makes sense. You couldn say that a vincents senior team would not be better than the likes of rynaghs, tubber etc or many more for that matter. in fact i think a vincents selection would be capable of winning senior in a few years.
jimbob
jimbob17
All Star
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:40 am

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Lone Shark » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:28 pm

For the last time. I am not suggesting parish teams. They would be the worst possible solution.

If this is to work, it has to be divisional teams, of which there would be four. There could only be room for eight actual "clubs" at senior level along with them, because if you have twelve senior clubs, many of the areas wouldn't have enough clubs to make up teams. Parish clubs make no sense - what about Shannonbridge, Kilcormac/Killoughey, Birr, Durrow? If you pick four divisions - create them along diocesan lines - then they would work for both hurling and football.

It goes back to the same issue though - players with too many commitments. You'd have to create some rules about how players lining out for divisions, how you couldn't play until you were out of minor level, and possible some other criteria to make sure that you don't mess up the fixture list too much.

Then you have to get four football and four hurling clubs to vote themselves back down to intermediate. Then you'd need to put in place structures for them to actually work.

A doddle really.

You couldn say that a vincents senior team would not be better than the likes of rynaghs, tubber etc or many more for that matter. in fact i think a vincents selection would be capable of winning senior in a few years.


It takes a lot to make a senior team, not to mention a senior team that could win a championship. I'd back Tubber or Rynaghs to beat Vincents easily right now and they'd have a long way to go.
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.
User avatar
Lone Shark
All Star
 
Posts: 5077
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Back Home!

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Fargo Boyle » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:40 pm

I think jimbob17 and Ahlethimoutwithit and Noel Graham should all get a room together. There is obviously some man love issues there.
Fargo Boyle
All Star
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:27 pm
Location: Kilkenny

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby kingscounty » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:16 pm

if you take brian cody in kilkenny ,his team will have a mix of junior,inter and senior players from year to year with 7 or 8 players coming from the junior/inter club championship in kilkenny.michael kavanagh,aidan fogarty,richie hogan,wille o dwyer,michael grace,sean cummins,pat herthey all hurled at junior/inter club level when kilkenny won an all ireland. i agree there is always at least one good player in every club. if the player is committed and wants to play at the top level he should stand out at the lower club grade but some players play better on a team that is all at the same level . take edenderry footballers, they won championship and will prob send 6 or 7 in for offaly trials but yet they were beaten by erin rovers ,rhode and nearly a tullamore b team. granted they won final and it was great but really dalton and pender would be the only 2 that could play for the county. i would safely say there is 3 or 4 better forwards in the inter championship than their is on most of the senior club teams,gracefield semi final scored 3 points, 2 from a centre back and this is in a semi final of a senior club championship! it would do no harm at all to give lads at all grades a chance, not just one trial , let them train and get up to speed with level and if their not good enough then fair enough.
kingscounty
All Star
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby jimbob17 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:25 pm

Fargo Boyle wrote:I think jimbob17 and Ahlethimoutwithit and Noel Graham should all get a room together. There is obviously some man love issues there.


Absolutely not fargo, maybe it appears that i am playing his case for the seniors, however this is not the case at all. I am merely using him as an example of the talent currently in the junior/inter ranks TO MAKE A VALID POINT. he is a prime example of the talent that is lost annually in these areas. Anyone who was in Navan last year at the minor semi final would acknowledge that he is on of the best minors to come thro OY in a few years. He played 3 years OY minor and played 21 at 17 yrs of age. In fact anyone that knows anything about OY football would acknowledge this. Perhaps you are happy with the status quo where OY football is on its knees propped up by mediocre players from reasonably successful senior clubs such as rhode and clara.I could guarantee you that at least three of the current OY senior players from these clubs would not be next nor near the OY senior panel if they were playing for lesser clubs in a lesser grade!! In a third of last years panel are probably not up to it in my opinion, all from senior clubs, some of whom couldnt make a minor or 21 team. That means when they were minor or 21, there were 15 players deemed better than them at their own age. and all of a sudden they are inter county senior footballers. Can you not see the wood from the trees FARGO. We will remain in the doldrums until this attitude changes!!!

I could easily have used other examples such as Peter Cunningham and Eoin Carroll who will be two of the stronger players on the OY minor team next year. Both from inter/junior clubs. It happens time and again that the best players at minor from junior clubs dont make it because the pathway doesnt exist for them to develop. Go back to the 3 KK lads who were excellent minors a few years ago getting OY to a leinster minor final. None playing senior football and never will. The list is endless. Its no wonder we are where we are. but you come on here FARGO and make some snide remarks. its this type of elitest attitude from those in the "senior" ranks that ignores all the talent at its disposal to the detrriment of the county overall.
jimbob
jimbob17
All Star
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:40 am

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Ahlethimoutwithit » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:45 pm

Jimbob, you have not answered as to why Noel Andrew and Bracken might be lost. Most county players spend 85% of their time in training with the county, and if a guy is dedicated with his club it will shine through. And the dedication to play county football needs to be there to. The guys you have spoken about from KK , (especially Currams and Mahon) have been asked in to the Offaly senior set up to train with them for the panel and refused citing a committment to hurling, no tmuch you can do with that. Liam Brennan for Daingean will be a fella who Cooney might look at, not too many else there. Clonbullogue will have a couple of guy, Croghan have a couple of young lads, Cian O Donoghue, Brickland who could be asked in, but overall there are a lot of minors who come through and for a variety of reasons drift away, but to blame the clubs and the fact that guys are playing Junior and Intermediate football is not the main issue. As another poster has pointed out, guys who put it in with their clubs stand out and if they have the dedication they will make it as they will spend most of their time training with the county and not with their clubs.

As for Fargo what are you on about?, stick to scaring sheep!
Ahlethimoutwithit
All Star
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:40 pm

Re: Lost in the Bog

Postby Ahlethimoutwithit » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:56 pm

Also, No one on Offaly team from Ferbane, Ballycumber, Pollagh,Shamrocks (ok Nigel Dunne thereabouts?) Rynaghs, Tullamore, all Senior teams in big areas? So Senior football does not guarantee county players either, (combined population 18 to 20k)???
Ahlethimoutwithit
All Star
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:40 pm

Next

Return to Offaly GAA

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 20 guests