What are they smoking in Birr?

[Bord na Mona man]

BNM and Lone shark, not for one minute do i think attendances were " HUGE " in Birr towards OCP but i do firmly believe that Offaly hurling has fallen downwards since its been moved to Tullamore. Yes I know its not the only reason we are not competing anymore but its one of the main factors. The Birr area is the hurling strong hold and its lost that identity since games were moved to OCP.

Offaly has been in trouble at underage for a good 20 years now, with the occasional good year bucking this trend.
You don't see the problems for a first few years, but as the great players exit the scene and their replacments don't match them, you have a gradual slide in quality. The move from Birr to Tullamore has been far more recent and it's hard to point to any of the current players and show how it negatively impacted their standard of performance.

If I thought moving the HQ to Birr would suddenly start to equip our players with better skills to cope with the modern game and make the standard of coaching better, then I'd be on for it, but really I don't see how it's a magic bullet.

You could also take the example of Monaghan where there has a similar debate over the years. There are people who claim that league games shouldn't be played in Clones because it is a big venue that looks empty and lacks atmosphere. It is also on the far edge of the colunty away from the tradiaional heartlands. In 2006 they decided to play their league games at different local venues - Clontibret, Castleblayney and the manager Seamus McEnaney felt in hindsight this was a mistake as it left them less familiar with Clones for their championship matches.

Clones has become their primary venue ever since with the occasional bone being thrown to other grounds, especially when travel logistics of the opponents is a factor. If the 'Birr logic' applied here, they'd be buried in Division 4 right now instead of being Ulster champions.

[Lone Shark]

On St.Brendans park its a credit to the new committee to turn around the club in 9 months and I think with another couple of years hard work the ground will be up there with the best of them.

Lone Shark checking attendances this weekend is ridiclious because you cant compare. Belmont or Clareen dont have a huge following specially when one of them is at 12 on Sunday. St Rynaghs and Shinrone will bring huge support to there game. So I dont think the attendance really matters this weekend.

Why not wait till the new year and see the crowds flood in for the Walsh cup games.

Without doubt, the changes in SBP are a credit to the new committee - and the change in attitude from the club itself has changed my own views on the whole debate a little bit, to the point that I'd be a lot more open to exploring a new approach. The new committee has looked at the problems and tried to address them, as opposed to ignoring them and making demands on the back of a load of hyperbolic nonsense about tradition.

However I would disagree strongly that the Sunday fixtures this weekend are any less appealing than the Saturday ones. Rynaghs are well supported absolutely, but no more than KK. Both grounds will host their local town and I don't think there's a world of difference between the support level for Belmont or Clareenas opposed to that of Shinrone. They'd all be much of a muchness. Coolderry would have a bigger following than those three, but they're travelling a decent distance and they are not far off stone cold certainties to win.

I don't think 12 on Sunday is any less appealing than in the middle of the work day on Saturday either. IF there is a huge body of supporters out there who will go to games in Birr than wouldn't in Tullamore, then there is no reason why the Sunday game won't get a much bigger crowd.

As for the Walsh Cup, there were 1200 people in OCP for Offaly vs Galway this year, and while that was admittedly an attractive tie, you'd expect that if KK/Dub/Wex/Gal/Laois were slated to visit in 2016, then the "Birr factor" will surely bring that up to 1500 or more. Of course it would be different if it was Antrim, Westmeath or Carlow, but hopefully we'll get the chance to compare like with like.

[Keiap]

This is not an issue about birr vs tullamore, it is an issue about the demise of hurling in South Offaly..I think it's laughable that both bord ma Mona man and lone shark are so evidently against rejuvenating interest in the hurling population of South Offaly,there is nobody asking for Offaly championship games to be played in birr as tullamore is a top class facility capable of holding huge numbers but the argument of "giving up" home advantage by playing league games in birr is crazy..tullamore has been hosting county finals/league games since 07 so anybody involved in a county set up has been playing in o'connor park consistently for the past 8years so I don't think that if they played 1 or 2 league games in birr the surroundings of o'connor park would be alien to them come Leinster championship. In fact the opposite is true when you consider "home advantage" is playing in front of 750-1000 people in a stadium that can probably hold 15,000 and that is virtually empty, why do limerick,Waterford and Wexford frequently play their league games is smaller county venues only to maximise their levels of support and give their players psychological lift.i have played for Offaly in both grounds and running out on to o'connor park in front of your home crowd with attendances of 700/800 people can be demoralising for players. Birr gaa club have got their affairs in order and the grounds are a credit to their work but all they are doing is providing a facility which we the people of South Offaly need as a hurling population going forward.if something is broken you would try to fix it and that is certainly true in the case of Offaly hurling so I can't understand how genuine Offaly people will not row in and lend their support to effect a change and hopefully turn things around instead of using their influence in the media to spread negative views that only creates a divide in the hurling population. Offaly's epitaph will read "could of done more" so why aren't we exhausting every possible avenue Available to us.if it doesn't work bringing thd games back to birr fair enough at least we tried!

[Lone Shark]

Your anti birr and that's a fact,you will Doctor the numbers to suit.all the senior hurling clubs,reps and players around Offaly want the hurling back in birr.i will turn a blind eye to your ignorance of the fact that you have probably never hurled on either pitch.birr is a better hurling field..

I'll doctor nothing. It's driven me bananas listening to this idea that there are bigger crowds waiting to flock to Birr stated as fact, when the truth has been that attendance numbers were unavailable in Birr, and the gate returns submitted back to Tullamore were shockingly low. Christy Todd is the event controller in OCP and he'll happily supply the attendance numbers for Saturday, I've contacted Birr officials and am waiting on a response from them. All I want is the betterment of Offaly hurling, an I'll be the first to concede that if moving a game to Birr brings a 25% boost to the crowd, then that's where it should be - all the more since Birr have agreed not to charge the usual ground rent.

Regarding your second point, this is the type of hyperbole that annoys me. There are 12 senior clubs in Offaly. KK have come on the record as saying that they want games in Tullamore, and I think we can be fairly sure how the Tullamore club themselves would vote. Similarly, I'd be reasonably confident that if you gave Shamrocks, Brosna Gaels or Ballinamere the choice, I'd say they'd be happier in OCP too. You're not far off half way there now, and as for saying that all the senior hurling players - i.e. 12 panels of 25 players so 300 individuals, ALL want the same thing - well that's just nonsense. I would never presume to know what 3 people think, never mind 300.

As for my own hurling career, I was a stone useless underage hurler who has played nothing only a few Dublin junior matches as a stand in over the last 20 years. Rest assured I'm not basing my views on the playing surface on my recollection of hurling as 14 year old, it's entirely based on what people say to me. I've often heard it said anyway that in terms of playing surface, Ballinasloe is as good as it gets in the county of Galway and how it's far superior to both Athenry and the disaster that is Pearse Stadium. Yet you'd be a long time camped outside the Duggan before you'd see a Galway team togging out there for a meaningful game.

[Lone Shark]

This is not an issue about birr vs tullamore, it is an issue about the demise of hurling in South Offaly..I think it's laughable that both bord ma Mona man and lone shark are so evidently against rejuvenating interest in the hurling population of South Offaly,there is nobody asking for Offaly championship games to be played in birr as tullamore is a top class facility capable of holding huge numbers but the argument of "giving up" home advantage by playing league games in birr is crazy..tullamore has been hosting county finals/league games since 07 so anybody involved in a county set up has been playing in o'connor park consistently for the past 8years so I don't think that if they played 1 or 2 league games in birr the surroundings of o'connor park would be alien to them come Leinster championship. In fact the opposite is true when you consider "home advantage" is playing in front of 750-1000 people in a stadium that can probably hold 15,000 and that is virtually empty, why do limerick,Waterford and Wexford frequently play their league games is smaller county venues only to maximise their levels of support and give their players psychological lift.i have played for Offaly in both grounds and running out on to o'connor park in front of your home crowd with attendances of 700/800 people can be demoralising for players. Birr gaa club have got their affairs in order and the grounds are a credit to their work but all they are doing is providing a facility which we the people of South Offaly need as a hurling population going forward.if something is broken you would try to fix it and that is certainly true in the case of Offaly hurling so I can't understand how genuine Offaly people will not row in and lend their support to effect a change and hopefully turn things around instead of using their influence in the media to spread negative views that only creates a divide in the hurling population. Offaly's epitaph will read "could of done more" so why aren't we exhausting every possible avenue Available to us.if it doesn't work bringing thd games back to birr fair enough at least we tried!

I won't lie, I find that post hugely hypocritical - witness the parts in bold. Nothing has made me more frustrated than this idea that there is a subset of people within Offaly that constitute the hurling community, and that there are others who are just outsiders looking in, with no entitlement to an equal voice. The only divide in Offaly is the one that some people perceive to exist around the Blue Ball, and it sure as hell is not something that I would ever, or have ever, perpetuated.

If there is a case to be made for the fact that Offaly teams might get better results in Birr, then make it - and the point about the crowds is a legitimate one. All I've ever looked to do on that issue is get clear numbers on the actual number of people who will go to games in Birr, because based on the club's historical returns, it's nothing like I read on here.

However this idea that "South Offaly" needs, or wants, or deserves anything is a load of horseschyte. Why do the kids of Birr, Clareen and Kinnitty deserve big hurling games on their doorstep, but the kids of Tullamore, Mucklagh and Ballinamere don't? If anything you could say that the Birr area had a 100 year head start, and the rest is only catching up now. I am certainly not against the idea of "rejuvenating interest in the hurling population of South Offaly", I just can see the futility in arguing about which part of Offaly deserves extra advantages.

As far as I'm concerned, it's as simple as this - when it comes to Offaly GAA, there is no South Offaly, or North Offaly, or West Offaly. There is only Offaly, and if something has a chance of serving the greater good, then by all means lets have it. But leave the parish pump stuff at home.

[GOOFY]

That has not been the case because we now have the identity lost down this side of the county which makes it harder for us to develope young hurlers and keep them interested.

In fairness greenairfield that is some cop out. Shite talk of the highest order

[keyboardwarrior]

“i have played for Offaly“…

in other counties this is a would be a statement for others to stand up and listen, in OY its arguably (so not judging you Kiep) the clarion call of someone who has been taken in by the vice-like grip of the ‘culture’ (thank you Mr. Plunkett).

So to rob a line from Prof Sean Maguire in Good Will Hunting …. It’s not your fault….it’s not your fault

Without labouring the point … and as a starting comp….. check out the most recent Clare minor side and check out the most recent Offaly minor side. On Clare you have low representation of the prominent club sides of the 90s Clarecastle, Wolfe Tones, Doora Bearfield and Sixmilebridge. On Offaly the proverbial Blueball DMZ still firmly exists. The game spread in Clare due to structures being built upon by the persons in control and changing demographics on the ground during the building boom.

The reasons … sure we all know em all :

1. County Board asleep at the wheel in the 90s and no strategy to expand uptake in the game following demographic changes in the more populated urban areas in North Offaly (despite the existence of ‘traditional’ hurling clubs within some of those areas.
2. Low representation (bar a few in UL in the mid noughties) in collegiate centres of excellence.
3. Insular mentality and the resistance to absorb best practices from the said collegiate centres of excellence as has been done by all other ‘progressive’ hurling counties.
4. A ‘millenarian’ (the belief by a movement in a coming major transformation of society, after which all things will be changed) philosophy of OY ‘hurling people’ (particularly in the Democratic People's Republic of ‘Sowhh Haww-fully) that the heady days of schools success in the early and mid-80s and minor success of the late 80s would keep on truckin and that the likes of Tullamore, Ballinamere and Shamrocks can keep on pissin into the wind.
5. Rural de-population in the Democratic People's Republic of ‘Sowhh Haww-fully and the decline of traditional employers (ESB, small subsistence farm holdings, trades).
6. Birrs dominance at club level.
7. On reflection (and certainly in the likes of Kilcormac) promising and talented underage stars becoming subsumed by drink and back-slapping culture and happy to live off past glories.
8. And so on and so on ….

To move on ….

It must be said that the appointment Kelly and Sheedy as his mentor under the direction of a process overseen by the two most respect hurlers (on and off the field) of the most recent generation (Rory and Joe Brady) is as good as it could possibly be. What good would a ‘big name’ coach have done. The appointment has got ‘real world’ written all and I don’t think anyone can crib whinge or moan about it.

Make no mistake about it – this is a 10 year + project.

And to add finally ... great to see the hosting of Walsh Cup games in Birr ... let the good citizens of South Offaly vote with their feet and get down to the games to show the world how much they want games in SBP.

[Toxicity234]

I happy to see matches back in St. Brendan's. As i love the ground and i think it is the home of hurling in Offaly.
Now It's up to Birr Gaa club to make the case for have more game in Brendan's. I was at a match in there early in the year and it was spot on. Excellent from the time i walk in the gate to the time i walk out but that the standard it should be at for all games. No doubt it will.
Offaly have a excellent facility in Tullamore. Thank god. but it does hold a huge amount of games especially at this time of the year.

KeyboardWarrior. your DMZ Line is in the wrong place. It was about two south of the Fivealley. The only reason anyone above that was picked on a team was that the Birr and Clareen lads had someone to blame for them losing.

On Point number 7. This happen in ever county and ever club. Players at 17, leave home, go to college and life begins. Good hurlers are lost to the Drink, Women , travelling and other things. The good coaches and managers get the lads through this and at 22 they return as men not boys. The problem in Offaly was that when the lads south of the DMZ line when on the piss they were treated different to the lads on the north of the DMZ.
When Birr 19 years old when drinking they got a bollocking when Kilcormac lad when on the piss they got dropped and told they weren't good enough. This was done to a huge amount of hurlers north of the DMZ.

Ithink the point is that next year walsh cup games is a chance for Brendan Park to show what it can be. a brilliant facility in the south of Offaly for both the Hurlers and the Footballer of this great county.

[Keiap]

kevin all you are is figures I'm am telling you now we will get more in numbers to birr FACT..you didn't answer my point on the kinnitty Brosna Gaels game.did you close your eyes for that bit

[Lone Shark]

kevin all you are is figures I'm am telling you now we will get more in numbers to birr FACT..you didn't answer my point on the kinnitty Brosna Gaels game.did you close your eyes for that bit

I'm hardly going to comment on a game I wasn't at. In fairness that was an unappealing tie with the result assured long before the throw in - it would have drawn no crowd whatsoever regardless of where you put it.

And yes, I am a figures guy - so what figures have you for me? You'll excuse my failure to be bowled over by your use of capital letters and the word fact, when you've actually offered no real evidence whatsoever. Facts are things that are proven, backed up - you can't just claim them by shouting.

[Keiap]

I'm sure you'd get the figures for that match if you asked your friends in o Connor park KEVIN

[Lone Shark]

I don't know the figures, other than to say I'd expect them to be abysmal regardless of where the game was played. If you're asking me was OCP the ideal venue from a point of view of drawing a crowd, I'd say of course not - Kilcormac, Mountbolus or Ballinamere would have made far more sense. However that said, it's entirely possible that one or both clubs might have asked to play a game or two at the venue, given that you won't win a county title without hurling there - just as Shinrone asked to hurl in OCP earlier this year.

Either way, games like that are not what we're talking about here. The Birr club didn't go to all that effort getting the ground fit to hosts crowds in the thousands just to host group games that will bring less than 100 souls in the gate. County championship knockout ties, intercounty underage games and intercounty fixtures in league and Walsh Cup are those up for debate right now, and that's why the crowds at the Walsh Cup next January, and also in SBP next Sunday, will be hugely informative.

[Keiap]

Well my point is that I've been to o'connor park where there has been a crowd of around 600/700 and the announcement on the radio or its put in the papers that there has been a lot more double sometimes..pure propaganda..Kevin

[Towerus]

Can't really see what can be learned by comparing attendances over the weekend really - if location was the main factor then surely there wouldn't have been a whopping €40,000 variation between gates in the years since it moved to OCP. There are several other factors - for one thing 12 o'clock Sunday fixtures are generally poorly attended.

Nobody is claiming that a return to Birr is going to cure all of our hurling woes, but when we keep hearing supporters, various committees and, more importantly, players and managers, identifying it as a missing link, and many players from both inside and outside our own county say it's simply a better sod to play on - what possible harm can it do to explore it further.

[jimbob17]

“i have played for Offaly“…

in other counties this is a would be a statement for others to stand up and listen, in OY its arguably (so not judging you Kiep) the clarion call of someone who has been taken in by the vice-like grip of the ‘culture’ (thank you Mr. Plunkett).

So to rob a line from Prof Sean Maguire in Good Will Hunting …. It’s not your fault….it’s not your fault

Without labouring the point … and as a starting comp….. check out the most recent Clare minor side and check out the most recent Offaly minor side. On Clare you have low representation of the prominent club sides of the 90s Clarecastle, Wolfe Tones, Doora Bearfield and Sixmilebridge. On Offaly the proverbial Blueball DMZ still firmly exists. The game spread in Clare due to structures being built upon by the persons in control and changing demographics on the ground during the building boom.

The reasons … sure we all know em all :

1. County Board asleep at the wheel in the 90s and no strategy to expand uptake in the game following demographic changes in the more populated urban areas in North Offaly (despite the existence of ‘traditional’ hurling clubs within some of those areas.
2. Low representation (bar a few in UL in the mid noughties) in collegiate centres of excellence.
3. Insular mentality and the resistance to absorb best practices from the said collegiate centres of excellence as has been done by all other ‘progressive’ hurling counties.
4. A ‘millenarian’ (the belief by a movement in a coming major transformation of society, after which all things will be changed) philosophy of OY ‘hurling people’ (particularly in the Democratic People's Republic of ‘Sowhh Haww-fully) that the heady days of schools success in the early and mid-80s and minor success of the late 80s would keep on truckin and that the likes of Tullamore, Ballinamere and Shamrocks can keep on pissin into the wind.
5. Rural de-population in the Democratic People's Republic of ‘Sowhh Haww-fully and the decline of traditional employers (ESB, small subsistence farm holdings, trades).
6. Birrs dominance at club level.
7. On reflection (and certainly in the likes of Kilcormac) promising and talented underage stars becoming subsumed by drink and back-slapping culture and happy to live off past glories.
8. And so on and so on ….

To move on ….

It must be said that the appointment Kelly and Sheedy as his mentor under the direction of a process overseen by the two most respect hurlers (on and off the field) of the most recent generation (Rory and Joe Brady) is as good as it could possibly be. What good would a ‘big name’ coach have done. The appointment has got ‘real world’ written all and I don’t think anyone can crib whinge or moan about it.

Make no mistake about it – this is a 10 year + project.

And to add finally ... great to see the hosting of Walsh Cup games in Birr ... let the good citizens of South Offaly vote with their feet and get down to the games to show the world how much they want games in SBP.

Suberb article keyboardwarrior Well done.....

Well done also to Lone Shark and Towerus on your comments