Un Cambio Es Bueno

[Truth as i see it]

By the way i'm aware that there was a review done back around '06, '07 but i don't count that as from what i gather it was only a half-hearted attempt to analyze the problem and as such a complete waste of time

[Lone Shark]

The simple fact is that a number of players were involved in Club Championship hurling in Cork between the two Waterford matches alone and there was no issue. This is not running off games in dribs and drabs. And it’s not that we are not in a position to do this, we don’t do so by choice.

Cork played two SHC matches and a sprinkling of IHC games on that weekend. The senior games involved Courcey Rovers, Carrigtwohill, Bride Rovers and Ballymartle - four clubs that between them, contributed the sub keeper on the 26 that was named for the Waterford match. (http://www.gaacork.ie/news/323247/cork_ ... _on_sunday)

Neither did any of the IHC games played involve any of that 26. Offaly do not have that luxury.

In Offaly we played a round at the beginning of May and not again until the third week in July. How can this be right? What was wrong with playing senior hurling matches on the 11th or 25th of May. Or the 14th of June?

I believe we could better structure it without forcing anyone to decide if we had less of a tendency to ‘mind’ our County players. This is no side show but is something that needs to be addressed.

I actually think you're being mischievous now and "trolling", as the hip-internet kids tend to say. We had a round of football games on the weekend of the 25th of May, so of course we couldn't play hurling the same week. The other two dates you suggest were weekends immediately before the county footballers were in action, so you would have been either (1) Asking St Rynaghs to play a championship game without Joe O'Connor and asking Belmont to do the same without Joe Maher, or (2) expecting players to play for their club just a week before lining out for their county. There is no county in Ireland that does this, and I suspect that if the Offaly county board fixed a round of football games for the week before Offaly played championship hurling, then you mightn't be as supportive of this idea. For example, I note you didn't pick the 1st of June as a suitable weekend - would you have been happy with games being played six days before we hurled against Kilkenny?

[Buck Face]

Firstly I believe (this should go without saying but for your benefit) I believe that both codes should be treated the same.

I certainly don't see anything wrong with a player being expected to play a code for their club 10 days before he plays for his county in another code. Or a better way of doing it would be, again as they also do in Cork, play a round of club games in the other code (trying to be politically correct here so you don't jump to conclusions) within a few days of the intercounty team playing in order to keep the club championship flowing.

Are you seriously saying that it was not possible to play a round of club hurling between the first week in May and the third week in July???

[Lone Shark]

Firstly I believe (this should go without saying but for your benefit) I believe that both codes should be treated the same.

Fair enough. I only raised the question because the example dates you chose were all the ones that would have suited the county hurlers and inconvenienced the county footballers, and you left out the one that would have been the other way around, but I'm very happy to agree that any workable solution has to give parity of esteem to both codes.


In my experience from talking to players involved, I don't think pushing for more midweek championship games is a good or fair way to go. It's hard enough be committed to your club when you live away from home (and lets face it, every club has at least a half a dozen key players living an hour away or more) without forcing people to take half days, and when you fix a championship game in Shinrone or Pullough for a Wednesday evening at 7.45pm or so, that's what you're doing to lads working in Dublin (for example).

Secondly, and I know we've gone further and further away from this idea in Offaly, but I personally believe that SHC and SFC games are important events, and shouldn't be shoehorned in whenever they fit. They are big deals, and should be treated as such, both for supporters and players. Clubs should be afforded some chance to prepare, which means a couple of sessions in the lead up to the game with all their players - not one hasty gathering on a Monday night when the county guys have been out in the Leinster/All Ireland championship on the Sunday.

This is something where the players themselves should be the ones to give direction, but my gut feeling is that given the choice between waiting until July and having it scheduled correctly and playing games midweek three or four days after the county team has played, and I guess players would wait until later in the summer.

Of the weeks you're talking about, I really don't see what else could be done. From May, the weekends were:

27th July - Round of SFC played
20th July - Round of SHC played
13th July - Offaly SHC vs Tipperary
6th July
29th Jun - Offaly SHC vs Antrim
22nd June -
15th June - Offaly SFC vs Wicklow
8th June - Offaly SHC vs Kilkenny
1st June
25th May - Round of SFC played
18th May - Offaly SFC vs Longford
11th May
4th May - Round of SHC played

I take your point about midweek games being an option, but personally it's not one I'd favour and in every club I've been involved in, players seem to dislike them. They'll tolerate them when it's league, and even then only if it's local.

Again I will point out here however that this is not an area where Offaly are worse than average - in fact as I've said, the only counties that wedge more championship games in are the ones who either treat one code as second class, the ones who openly make it impossible to play football in one code and hurling in the other, and counties like Cork and Tipperary who have so many clubs that they can schedule plenty of senior and intermediate games out of the clubs who don't have a player on the manager's likely 26, while they have huge swathes of clubs that have hardly ever had a dual club player in their ranks, never mind a county dual player.

I know that in Offaly we could play (for example) Seir Kieran vs Coolderry the week before the county football team plays, or the week of it, and similarly for Rhode vs Walsh Island in football, if we wanted to. However this creates an unfair playing field, since some dual clubs have a lot of games to catch up on later in the year, which may be a disadvantage if they play them all together or an advantage if they know what they need to do. It would also be manipulated a lot by clubs trying to suit their injury/suspension situation.

[Buck Face]

Your last paragraph alone shows that there are options that can be explored. The 'type' of championship that you are against, where a full round is not played off together, is exactly what they do in Cork to keep as many club players playing as possible and it doesn't do them any harm.

You also refer to possibly starting the championships later and this another option that may improve the structure of our championships but we are slightly off point here.

So getting back to the crux of what Pat Cleary was saying, for too long we have (and certainly had) been minding our Senior County players and we don't now want to go to the same extremes with our underage players as well. The clubs suffer and the players throughout the county suffer along with it.

[Lone Shark]

Your last paragraph alone shows that there are options that can be explored. The 'type' of championship that you are against, where a full round is not played off together, is exactly what they do in Cork to keep as many club players playing as possible and it doesn't do them any harm.

You also refer to possibly starting the championships later and this another option that may improve the structure of our championships but we are slightly off point here.

So getting back to the crux of what Pat Cleary was saying, for too long we have (and certainly had) been minding our Senior County players and we don't now want to go to the same extremes with our underage players as well. The clubs suffer and the players throughout the county suffer along with it.

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying that I don't think it would improve matters. Unless you create a system that either (a) punishes clubs who have dual players by forcing them to play a raft of matches in a short space of time while the single code clubs have an evenly spaced summer, or else (b) leave the single code clubs twiddling their thumbs later in the year while the dual code clubs catch up, I don't see how that would work. I'd be interested to see your vision for it absolutely, but I can't imagine a system that would be an improvement on what we have now.

Your conclusion again presents an opinion as fact - that we have been minding our county players too much - when in fact our county players have had just as much club activity as the hurlers/footballers in any county out there. I'm not saying that more wouldn't be better, but it's hardly an indisputable fact in the same way as it is in Clare, Donegal, Dublin or somewhere similar. The only difference is that some counties have enough clubs without county or dual players to keep things ticking over throughout the summer, while we don't.

[Buck Face]

when in fact our county players have had just as much club activity as the hurlers/footballers in any county out there

In Tipperary, to give just one more example, they played club championship hurling on at least 4 weekends in that same period that we played none. We are far from unique in having dual players because the likes of Noel McGrath also managed to play a round of club football in this time period (mid-week as well by the way).

My last paragraph was not about opinions. If we start imposing the same rigid rules (i.e no games from 2 weeks before or no mid-week games after championship matches as they play in other counties) to our underage set ups as well then the club players will suffer from huge gaps between matches and county players will not have enough competitive club action in that period which in my opinion leads to problems.

As I said before I think we have improved but if you think we can do a Dublin on it and not have our Minor players playing with their clubs for long periods then this is concerning and the issue needs to be addressed.

[Lone Shark]

I suspect at this stage you're trying to actually score points rather than actually try and win over skeptics with logical arguments. You're conspicuously avoiding actual workable solutions in a county like Offaly, instead using examples that are of no relevance whatsoever.

(1) I've never argued that we should go down the road of counties like Dublin or Donegal, in fact I would hate the idea of us doing so, and it's cheap point-scoring to paint the view that this is what I would choose. My point is not that we should give more or less access, it's that when it comes to the spectrum of giving clubs access to county players, we are on the happy end. I'm not saying it's a perfect situation, but we do better than average and as such, it's not a reason why our county teams are underperforming. If one of us had a child doing the junior cert and they failed their mocks, you wouldn't pick out the one subject where they got a C and say this is a huge problem - you'd start with all the F's first. This is why I'm so passionate about this debate - we're running the risk of derailing this exercise before it starts by focusing on one of the few things where we aren't doing badly, instead of the myriad of areas where we are.

(2) Yes Tipperary played games. And like Cork, they played a load of games involving clubs that did not have county players, which is a luxury WE DON'T HAVE!!!! The North Tipp championship hosted a load of games, because North Tipperary has a total of two senior football panel members, so they have a lot more flexibility, they can play most of their games either the week the county footballers are in action, or shortly before. I've no doubt Noel McGrath played for his club, however my point stands - you won't find instances of any Tipp county man, or Cork, or Kilkenny, or anywhere, playing for his club a week before playing for his county. You can schedule matches at this time in big counties, yet there is no comparable county to Offaly (i.e. <60 clubs, reasonable dual focus) where it happens, because it's simply not practical. Laois, Wexford, Waterford, Westmeath, Carlow, Clare, Limerick, none of those counties gave more games to their individual players in the time frame you talk about, and some did much worse.

(3) I personally don't like the idea of midweek games, because for the same reason they suit me brilliantly (I work weekends) they don't suit the vast majority of players. I think it's demeaning to a senior championship tie to play it in the middle of the week when players can't prepare right and have to leave work early, and this is the shared view of nearly every player I've talked to. If you're saying that we should play SFC/SHC/IFC/IHC games on the Wednesday after county senior matches, and you're telling me that clubs will vote for and support this, then by all means I'll respect democracy - however I'd be amazed if a motion to adopt that type of policy would pass. Of course underage is different; instances of minor footballers or hurlers working 100 miles away from home are extremely rare, if they exist at all. I've no problem with minor championship games being played midweek, and if necessary, three or four days after a county game is fine.


Rather than looking all across the country for examples that you know before you start we can't copy, how about doing this instead - look at the schedule for the year so far, and pick out the next round of SHC and SFC ties, and tell me where you would have fitted them into the calendar in the period you're referring to? I guarantee you won't find anywhere.


As regards underage players, I've no problem with making them available for club minor league, club minor championship, and adult championship where possible, as we do already. However making them available for adult league is not going to help them as players. It's a cheap and easy way out for clubs to lean on the kids in the parish instead of trying to make sure that they get all the available adults togging out, and it's not a good learning experience for the players either. For every high quality league match that benefits a seventeen year old hurler or footballer, there's five times as many junior slogging matches in the muck of the Spring, where they're far more likely to get hurt by a thirty-something has been who knows that he doesn't have the legs to chase after young lads any more and so is tempted to throw in a hard tackle to "slow them up".

[Buck Face]

I am not saying this is a 'huge' problem for a second but every little helps.

You cannot simply dismiss what they do in Tipperary by narrowing your focus to the predominately hurling area in the North of the county. On EACH of those 4 weekends where they played senior club championship the matches involved county senior hurlers from across the county, so you cannot say they are only playing games that do not involve county players (some county players even played two rounds in this period).

I reckon that Tipperary and Cork are probably better at fixing their championships not because they are clever but because of the necessity to play matches regardless of how their county teams are doing as if they were to wait to see how the county teams performed before fixing matches then they'd struggle to run off their championships. In this regard, Offaly (unfortunately) have an advantage when it comes to structuring a smooth flowing championship as we don't have nearly as many county games to work around.

Likewise in Kilkenny (and I know they don't have football to compete with) where they have an excellent structure to their hurling championship where 'league championship games' are run off as the county teams are playing which have a bearing on their position for the business end knockouts (again something that may well have been devised out of necessity).

Without even having to go into any further detail on the way this years club hurling championship was structured I believe that by not playing the first round at the beginning of May (and running a disjointed championship) would be of benefit to the majority of players.

And back to the original point, games are good for players and we don't want a scenario where just because an underage team has potential that we start to prevent them from playing club games.

Reading back on your original posts you did acknowledge that this may well be an issue, I agree, it's not our biggest one by a long way, but it is an issue.

[Lone Shark]

Without even having to go into any further detail on the way this years club hurling championship was structured I believe that by not playing the first round at the beginning of May (and running a disjointed championship) would be of benefit to the majority of players.

And back to the original point, games are good for players and we don't want a scenario where just because an underage team has potential that we start to prevent them from playing club games.

Reading back on your original posts you did acknowledge that this may well be an issue, I agree, it's not our biggest one by a long way, but it is an issue.

In all of this, I agree with you. However you still haven't addressed that key, fundamental point - when would these games be played? I'll make it even easier - this weekend, Tullamore will play St Rynaghs in the Senior Hurling Championship, with the match due to be played in Banagher. If you wanted to fix that game into the window you're talking about, where would you put it? Or are you talking about leaving awkward games like that one to be run off like a blitz at the end of the year, while the Rhode footballers and Shinrone hurlers (for example) run off their games in an orderly fashion?

I'm not doubting the merit in what you say, but I'm really doubting the practicality of making it happen.

[Buck Face]

Blitzes can be fun for 14 year olds but they are a bit hard on the body for the 30 somethings so I wouldn't really be a fan of running off the Senior Hurling (and Football of course) Championships in a blitz like fashion (unless the players get crisps and coke after the first game?).

You picked an easy game to fix finding two clubs with dual players Of course this match could be fitted in (for a start more difficult ties to fix should be played off first) but it would require a few midweek games as they play in other counties. If we are against that then we should start our championships later and if we ever become successful again (oh please) then we will quickly have to adopt the midweek systems that work for other counties with dual players.

However, you are getting away from the fundamental point which is that we cannot start applying the same downtime to the underage players as we do with our Senior players as games are good for players and we need to ensure our championships are well structured (and having 11 weeks between rounds in the senior hurling championship is not well structured).

[Lone Shark]

You picked an easy game to fix finding two clubs with dual players Of course this match could be fitted in....

Where? This is my point. And it's not as simple as just saying that you get the awkward ones out of the way first - Group 2 in this year's Offaly SFC contains four clubs with members of the Offaly senior hurling panel, and four clubs with members of the Offaly senior football panel. You can't just wedge those games in anywhere, or pick and choose the tough ones to play them in round one, since there will be tough ones in every round of games. You've argued constantly that if we wanted to, we could fit games in - I've given you a game, so fit it in?

I know you're going to say midweek, but if this game was down to be played at 7.45pm, that would mean that players based in Dublin would be eating at around 4pm, leaving at 4.30pm in order to be confident of being in Banagher for an hour before the throw in. You are asking people to take time off work, and while there are rare instances where this is unavoidable, I don't think that it should be a policy - or if it is, it should be put to the clubs and voted on at the very least. Also, all these delegates who go to county board meetings and complain about club fixtures always stop short of saying that they want midweek matches, because they know that would be controversial. They always do like you've done here - say that things should be "well-structured", or some such term, but that's meaningless waffle unless you're explaining the nuts and bolts of what you actually mean.

I've long argued that the club championship season should be a distinct unit, not spread out over the summer - as you'll see from this piece that I wrote nine years ago.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=413 However the key here is that you need buy in from the top level. I'd love to see the Offaly county delegates arguing for something like this, but until this change actually happens, we're stuck with the county calendar that we have now.

While I agree with you that games are good for players, I just wouldn't go so far as to say that we should be expecting minor players to be available for adult league games. Minors get plenty of games and certainly I'd have no problem with midweek MINOR league or championship club games being played ten/eleven days before they line out with the county minor team, or four days after, but I don't think that this is what the delegates were asking for.

[Buck Face]

It is not waffle to say it can be structured better when something as simple as not even playing round 1 would fix the gap.

And Mid-week games are not a re-invention of the wheel as you make out but if you impose a no mid-week rule on me then I can't fit in without playing a week before county matches which would be unreasonable.

One or at most 2 midweek games out of the 5 group games would be sufficient to prevent huge gaps between games and facilitate the playing of championship from May throughout the summer as done elsewhere in dual counties and i think it should be considered.

So if Offaly were successful in their codes this year and stayed in the championship for another month you would still sit back and say there is nothing we can do to avoid say 16 weeks between rounds?

[Buck Face]

(a well thought out piece there LS from years ago - that agrees that it could be structured better by not having a dis-jointed championship as a result of a one off round at the beginning of May or were you waffling too? )

[Lone Shark]

Your argument wasn't predicated on removing the games in May, it was about inserting more in June - which is the aspect I disagreed with, on grounds off practicality.

I'm not imposing the no-midweek rule on you, I'm saying that in my experience, players don't want it - and if you're going to get in the habit of putting games on in midweek slots, then the first step should be to get buy in from the clubs.

I'm currently living in Dysart in Roscommon, and involved with St Aidans here - we have six players who are living well over two hours away, so if there is a game fixed for a Friday night, either it's a challenge match and we start at 9pm to allow them to get down here in plenty of time, or else it's a league game which is due to start at 8pm, and we accept that the lads won't be in the door until 7.30pm at best - and that it's eminently possible that we'll get a call at 7.15pm saying it's touch and go if we'll make the throw in or not, so either stall the referee, or pick the team without us!

That's bad for league games, but you can't play championship that way. A game in Shinrone, Clareen, Birr or Carrig would be similarly difficult for Dublin-based players to reach in a decent amount of time, so I think that has to be a worst-case-scenario effort. It may be different if it's a game between North Offaly clubs being played at Rhode or somewhere that you could reach within a reasonable amount of time from Dublin, since they'd be less likely to have people based in places like Limerick or Cork, but this isn't something you can impose on clubs - you need to get them to buy in, and I don't think that'll happen.

And yes, I don't like the idea of one game being played in May and then a big break - I'd much prefer to start things in July, but that's difficult to do in a system where every club has to get a minimum of six games. If an Offaly team was successful, we'd be snookered if we didn't start early, and as for being successful in both codes, I agree that it would be a huge issue - however the solution to the problem lies with Croke Park, not with the Offaly fixtures secretary. I think that the revamp of the SFC/IFC next year is wrong for several reasons, but it'll be a disaster if the Offaly footballers somehow manage to win a run of games. However right now, we can play our games at weekends and still get everything done by mid-October, which I think is preferable to wedging games into midweek slots.