Strength And Conditioning

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.
Up The Faithful
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Strength And Conditioning

Post by Up The Faithful »

Before this Championship even started Ger Loughnane referred to this batch of offaly hurlers "the only team in the modern era with fat legs, bellies and a****". Talking about our strength and conditioning levels he said the county "is living in the dark ages".

After our 26 point loss to Kilkenny at the weekend, Ger Loughnane again struck out at the strength and conditioning of the players....

"But the bodies of the Offaly players look so weak. They aren't able to tackle properly because of this, or to contest ball in the air.

"Any decent club team now has a high level of strength and conditioning, but Offaly don't even have that. They are feeble. Even their big men are feeble.

"Look at Joe Bergin. He's way bigger than Cillian Buckley. Look at Shane Dooley. Way bigger than JJ Delaney. But they couldn't win a ball. They're not able to use their size because their conditioning isn't up to scratch.

"At the start of the year, I wrote here that Offaly are living in the Dark Ages. I take that back. They're back in the Stone Age.

"Until the reality sinks home, and is driven home by those with the power to change things, Offaly will become more and more irrelevant.

"There should be no team in the race for the Liam MacCarthy Cup as bad as Offaly are."

Anyway Im just wondering what is the opinions of the county on this? Was it the strength and conditioning?

substandard
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by substandard »

I would imagine strength and conditioning has been talked about for so long now that other counties have a massive head start on Offaly regardless what was done this year or last year. If Clare last year, going by Loughnane's logic, represents the pinnacle of modern application of strength and conditioning, then it's a process that began with many or most of that Clare panel as underage academy players.
But the hurling skills have to develop in tandem, and that's also an issue that needs to be addressed. A poor first touch and inability to get ball to hand, offload or strike quick enough was painfully apparent as well. Knocking balls casually over and back during training and warm-ups shouldn't be tolerated at any level of training, and drills should be at as fast a tempo as possible; if mistakes are to be made, let them be made at the fastest possible pace in training, and then and only then will proper match day intensity be possible. If that tempo is imposed as a standard through the ranks from an early age, it becomes habitual or the norm. It doesn't mean training should be a military boot-camp with Hitler's or Full Metal Jacket drill instructors berating players constantly (cannot think of your man's name!!!).
Watching Dublin hurl 4 or 5 years ago was harrowing because they were tremendously athletic, but with very few stylish hurlers, but the last couple of years their control and stickwork has improved massively, so now they have a team of 'natural' looking hurlers.
I know from working with underage to adult teams it's very hard to get that message across- good hurlers will inevitably spend a lot of drill time going through the motions, and drills will break down with slower or poorer players, but it's as much about mind set as anything else, looking to improve or get that millisecond quicker drill by drill, session by session.
It's far easier 'manufacture' an effective footballer than hurler, but Usain Bolt, Ronaldo or Chuck Bloody Norris wouldn't be much good on a hurling field if the skills don't complement the athleticism- the gym will only bring you so far...

Up The Faithful
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by Up The Faithful »

I agree with that totally..."Train slow, become slow" "Train fast, become fast". Offaly just lacked the pace and skill level in most areas of the pitch. In Brian Carrolls corner is the only position where we were on top. Last year against Kilkenny under Ollie Baker we opted for the high ball into the big lads e.g Joe Bergin, Shane Dooley, Colin Egan. It worked for the goals and the Kilkenny backs didnt like the physicallity. But on Saturday Offaly stood off them all the time. But a major issue in the county is Long Term Player Development

backofthenet
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by backofthenet »

I think we have more fundamental problems than just strength and conditioning.

If you just look at the way we approached Kilkenny this year and last year. 2 completely different approaches but with a lot if the same personnel.

Some like Colin Egan, Joe Bergin & Conor Mahon would suit the approach put forward last year, whereas the likes of Brian Carroll, Shane Dooley would / should favour this years setup.

Therein lies the problem. We need to abandon the philosophy of putting your best 15 hurlers on the pitch, that day is long gone and won't work at inter county level. We need to decide on a way of playing first then pick and develop players based on attributes which best fit that strategy.

This might mean not picking established hurlers if they can't adapt. An example has to be Conor Mahon, there has been little or no attempt to try to develop a gameplan to utilise his strength, height and engine. He could be a better than useful hurler if we can get the team to move for a pass when he wins the ball, the same problem was seen with Colin Egan last year, he would be great at gaining possession but had little or no options or support when he did. You often get a feeling that the players have an "every man for himself" mentality whereas when you see other team piling into rucks trying to win a ball, Offaly are very rarely that fast whether that is down to conditioning or mind set I don't know

Up The Faithful
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by Up The Faithful »

But ya have to admit if Brian Whelahan went out with a game plan and choose the 15 lads he wanted to play it, and it went terribly wrong he would come under awful criticism for not picking the best 15 lads available to him. I understand what you are saying but the game plan was totally wrong we played a sweeper which was negative and once the 1st goal went in there was no game plan.
Ya gotta make tough decisions to gain rewards and sticking to the old reliable tactics isnt working..clare is a prime example of new tactics winning and donegal a couple of years back.

backofthenet
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by backofthenet »

Up The Faithful wrote:But ya have to admit if Brian Whelahan went out with a game plan and choose the 15 lads he wanted to play it, and it went terribly wrong he would come under awful criticism for not picking the best 15 lads available to him. I understand what you are saying but the game plan was totally wrong we played a sweeper which was negative and once the 1st goal went in there was no game plan.
Ya gotta make tough decisions to gain rewards and sticking to the old reliable tactics isnt working..clare is a prime example of new tactics winning and donegal a couple of years back.

But I think the first goal is case in point. Kevin Connolly didn't protect the ball properly, lost it and all of a sudden Kilkenny are out of sight. Again not having a good at the lad but he has been playing in the forwards for his entire career and then he end up playing as a sweeper for Offaly?!!

I think Whelan went out with a gameplan but with probably the wrong kind of players to be able to implement the plan correctly...but that probably falls back on the management team.

A sweeper system is a revolution for Offaly hurling...may not be the answer but you can't say it's the same old tactics! It would just be great to see a manager really put their thinking caps on and try to follow the entire process through, at the moment it just looks like a decision made to change system with very little thought.

I suppose it might be a bigger indictment of the county board...why is there no training programme to teach trainers tactics, training drills & nutrition. You always hear people involved in soccer give out about FAI and they provide this. This would at least equip a manager to be able to be selected for county roles with the knowledge of best practice to give the players as equal a chance as other resources will provide!

timber
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by timber »

Strenght and conditioning is not the big problem. It seems to be the easy option to always say "ahhh, its down to the strenght and conditioning".

Offaly do as much as most other counties regarding that aspect. I personally think too much emphasis is on it. Gym work and work on the field are very different. And I think not enough hard work on the field is done in our clubs and in county team camps. There is possibly too much bulk on a few players, too much time spent in a cosy gym.

There are players on county panels that dont like the physical stuff. Its not in them. Big men that wont get stuck in. We have all played with and against them. Does not mean they have no strenght and conditioning work done. Its just they dont use their size.

Clare's success is more about them working so very hard as a team, a clear vision of what they have to do, and every player working to his strenghts.

My biggest issue is the number of Offaly players hurling out of position. Of course it was not the reason they lost but it was a major factor in the size of the defeat.

Toxicity234
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by Toxicity234 »

Strength and Conditioning.
The thing that get me about this and about Ger comment is our complete lack of Knowledge we have about Strength and Conditioning.
I spend a few year sharing a house with rugby players and the way they training was excellent but they have something that we don't have. Knowledge.

I'm going to take Joe Bergin as an example this is not a go at the lad it a go at our training.
The Joe Bergin that starts at full forward and the Joe Bergin that starts at Wing forward should be two completely different Body shape and have two completely different training plans.
The Joe Full forward should be a 3- 4 kgs bigger in muscle he need to he fast over the first 5 to 10 yards. He needs to be able to take hit and give hits.
The Joe Wing Forward should be lighter cause a wing forward has to cover more ground. he need to have staying power, he could have to follow him man anywhere on the pitch. he could be a completely different body shape to a Full forward.
You should be able to walk into train and be able to tell by the shape of the lads who plays were.

The Joe that plays wing forward could struggle to play Full forward, it would take maybe 10 or 15 mins for a good full back to Physical over power him. The Joe that trained for full forward line struggle at wing forward but will do ok their for 10 or 15 mins. before a good wing back will run rings around him.

You should be able to line up your full forwards and see the same body type all the time.

I picked Joe because he played both position but the same can be said for any player and Players Body shape depends on the game plan you want to play. Like the Clare full forward line need to be super light and fast where the Kilkenny one need to he strong and good over 10 yards.

To play the Clare game plan you need young players but you have to understand that most of these lads will burn out in their mid 20's. Training would just be so hard.
For Kilkenny you need players. that are in they mid 20's Strong and you have to make sure they keep their muscle level at all time.
“Common sense is not so common.”

Buck Face
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by Buck Face »

Ger Loughnane's article is just lazy tabloid thrash journalism at its finest.

He talks about Joe Bergin not being able to win a ball off Cillian Buckley. Utter nonsense. When I read it I thought he must have been watching a different game than me so I looked back at it last night.

16 balls dropped between Joe Bergin and mainly Cillian Buckley, Bergin won 3 of them cleanly (Buckley won none cleanly). Offaly won 11 possessions (some good early work from Sean Ryan) out of the 16 balls that dropped on Bergin with Kilkenny only winning 5!

The fact is that Buckley was lucky not to be taken off after his cross field pass to Dan Currams in the first half because he was struggling along with Kennedy.

And Shane Dooley did not lose out because of the 'strength and condition' of JJ Delaney. In fact, a ball hardly dropped between the two of them.

Kilkenny forwards over powered us because of their physical size and not simply their condition. It wouldn't matter how much time a number of our backs (or spare backs) spend in the gym, they'd still lose out in a physical confrontation with Michael Fennelly, Walter Walsh or Colin Fennelly.

Loughnane is right when he says any decent club now has a high level of strength and conditioning but by saying that he is implying that we don't even have decent clubs. More nonsense.

His article is just a cheap shot with little foundation and he should know better than to be putting the boot in when we are down. Fair play to him for helping to revolutionise Clare hurling from the humble beginnings that he played in but it's a pity to see this good work as a GAA man being undone by kicking opponents, for what seems like personal benefit by being sensationalist, when they are down.

Is Loughnane a true GAA man? Not in my book......I'd put every Offaly player that goes in training this week well ahead of him.

Plain of the Herbs
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by Plain of the Herbs »

Thank you for taking the time to analyse the Bergin one. Seriously.

It goes to show how much media comment is just lazy, unsubstantiated bullshit. But because Ger Loughnane (or, Peter Finnerty or John Allen or the like, God help us!) said it then it must be fact.

On Loughnane in particular, he drove a county mad, unnecessarily so, when he was Senior team Bainisteoir. His opinion carries weight though and him stating stuff to the effect that Barry Murphy was bearing down on goal in 1998 when the video clearly prove otherwise is another example of GL making it up to suit himself.

For me, GL lost much credibility when he condoned that striking incident in last Sunday’s Cork v Waterford match.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

manfromdelmonte
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by manfromdelmonte »

I've posted elsewhere about needs to be done to get a simple dedicated facility for county teams.
once you have the facility, then courses can be run for club coaches to come in and see how simple things can be applied to teams from under 16 up
you can screen players from underage county panels and give them individual programs to do at home.
the likes of Roscommon have lots of players who've been through the sports science courses in DCU and they are now applying that to the senior panel and underage squads, i'm sure there are plenty of graduates from DCU, Carlow IT etc from Offaly too.

the knowledge is the in the county, but how to harness it? and get the right people involved along with the facilities up and running.
a crap facility used properly is better than a top class facility used poorly.
only the best...

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bula bula
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by bula bula »

Feckin Ger Loughnane! Haven't posted in ages but this man has just annoyed me no end. As others have pointed out the worst thing is that he is actually listened to and his comments carry weight for some mad reason. He also is allowed talk the waffle on RTE and even obvious ridiculous opinions like in the cork Waterford game that POTH has mentioned are not tackled. Des Cahill realised he was talking Shite but let him go on. Just the week before he was arguing that the disallowed limerick goal against tipp was the correct decision. The comparison between these two incidents and Ger Loughnanes take on them just shows what we are dealing with and shows exactly why his comments regarding Offaly hurling and hurlers should be accepted for what they are. Digs by a man holding a grudge and with an ignorance to Offaly hurling.
"Ohhh mamma!"

Ahlethimoutwithit
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by Ahlethimoutwithit »

Tox,

I have to say that i would normally have a lot of time for your posts and the passion you clearly have for the Offaly.

But that piece in Joe Bergin is confusing.
In the modern game forwards need to be interchangeable, and many players are easiy interchangeable into different positions, and the level of strength and conditioning is largely the same based on size, body shape, etc. I dont think the Kilkenny full forward line do anything differently than the half forward line.

It actually would have taken very little more for Joe to have had a serious impact on the game, on 3 puck outs (aside what he did win) he had a clean hand on the ball and dropped the 3 (fairly sure). But these are things that when they go wrong , drain the confidence. When you analyse the game and I have yet to have a look at it, I would say the key thing that was missing was, first touch, decision making on the ball, off the ball running. The amount of aimless ball that we hit, even when lads appeared to be looking was poor.
Much of this can be easily rectified, by God , there should be some appetite to put in a serious performance in the qualifiers. But I would say this, Sean Gardiner and Sean Cleary should come into the team, young lads who can hurl and are the future, and put them in their right positions. Gardiner was stuck in at full forward early in the Walsh Cup and early league game v Laois. Could he slot in at wingback instead of Cathal Parlon, and give Parlon a run at half forward . Sorry... moving away from the point of the topic.

sam88885a
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by sam88885a »

lads i think loughnane is correct about strength and conditioning if he was talking about our defence or midfield but bergin and dooley have lots of power but lack real pace and to be honest look completely few up with b whelahan .
the word coming from the offaly camp has been poor since janurary when t carroll s coughlan j mulrooney d kilmartain d shortt g connelly d king all walked away from the set up to go PROPPER TRAINING with their clubs

Toxicity234
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Re: Strength And Conditioning

Post by Toxicity234 »

Yeah. Did explain it well at all.
Let he summit it up in one line.

"Dublin are not only thinking about having players at their Physical peak. Their thinking about having them at their physical peak for the position they going to be playing in and the game plan their going to be playing."
“Common sense is not so common.”

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