backofthenet wrote:Lone Shark wrote:backofthenet wrote:
Can anyone point out a valid reason that Birr can't hold Walsh cup / league games?
(1) With regard to league games, as of now, they're not allowed. That may change, but it's up to Birr to get it changed by convincing the county board why they should fight for it. All I've heard is schyte about "tradition". By the way, nobody has come out and said that they'd have a problem with Walsh Cup ties being played there.
(2) It's a smaller field, completely dis-similar to any of the grounds that the county will be playing championship hurling in. Tullamore is almost identical in size to Croke Park, Thurles, and most of the main grounds. In terms of preparing for championship, it's not suitable for that reason.
(3) Despite your nonsensical assertion that a professional team would base itself in Birr, the truth is that attendances have been largely similar at the two grounds. There is no income advantage to going to Birr, and a small, but real, cost disadvantage. So I'd be pretty confident that if the Offaly county board was motivated by money only, this would be a very short discussion. Even now, it has to be considered.
(4) It's where we will play our home championship games, so it makes sense that players are familiar with the venue in Summer and get to know it in Spring.
(5) The facilities for players, supporters, visitors, disabled, and media is second to none in Ireland and vastly better than Birr.
(6) This constant wrestling between venues is distracting from the real things that are holding back Offaly hurling, one of which is the constant propaganda from SBP advocates saying that we can't hurl in Tullamore, or that it's some kind of disadvantage. That is incredibly harmful and needs to be put to bed.
(7) Tullamore is incredibly accessible from all sides, as well as by rail for those who travel that way. We're into minor details now I'll grant you, but I just thought I'd tack it on.
And can we PLEASE stop using this gibberish about heartland/tradition/the sash my father wore etc. We are one county, not two. Hurling is for everyone, and on a purely personal level, the fact that Birr and environs had the advantage of hosting county games for generations and yet hurling around Tullamore has come on in leaps and bounds in just a few years speaks volumes. In fact if Birr and the local area is such a heartland, they don't need home games, shur it's all in the blood anyway.
Has anyone noted here that for all the talk of Walsh Cup games going to other venues in Offaly and comparisons with elsewhere, I promise you you won't see any league games in Freshford, Rathdowney, Sixmilebridge, etc. You won't even see them in Athenry, the traditional "heartland" venue in Galway. You'll see games in Ballycastle, because Casement Park is being done up. You'll see games in Páirc Uí Rinn, because it's a designated second county ground and it has lights, while PUC doesn't. And currently, Tipp have scheduled one game for Nenagh, which has a second county ground status - but that said, I'm not convinced that that will go ahead in McDonagh Park, since the Dubs will bring a decent crowd down.
Ok well take it point for point
Point 1: Ok fair point but apart from convincing the county board what criteria is not currently being met?
Point 2: It might not necessarily be a disadvantage that it is not as large as Croker or Thurles. Its not as if Offaly play in either venue on a very consistent basis, at the moment were lucky to get one trip a year to Croker for the hurlers and were more likely to play in nowlan park, port laoise etc.
Point 3: So it's nonsensical that a professional organisation would base themselves in the centre of their consumer fan base around a stadia that they own & can actually fill??!! Firstly I would claim that there would be an income advantage but even if there wasn't, there certainly would be a cost advantage as they wouldn't have the massive cost of actually building the new stadium in the first instance!
Point 4: This is a fair point however I think it would have more weight were there not so many club matches / county training going on in OC so the players are all familiar with the venue anyway.
Point 5: I would agree on on this point however supporters are all about the experience. I've never once thought oh sure the atmosphere is crap but at least I've somewhere to take a p@ss.
Point 6: Totally disagree with you here, I would be an advocate clearly for hurling at least in part to return to birr, not because of tradition or any of that sh@te as you say but simply because there is a better experience for supporters, better atmosphere which teams feed off and I would argue will make financial sense.
Point 7: This is really bad, firstly there is a rail link in Roscrea which is about 15 mins away for all the train goers heading to these Walsh cup matches!
Secondly you are really contradicting yourself birr is the most central location for the majority of supporters for any intercounty hurling match that involves Offaly.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hurling is for everyone and personally I'd like to see the large ball done away with so the entire county could focus on the sport but that's just me!! I'm joking of course!
I doubt either of us will convince the other lone shark but please stop trying to paint anyone who wants the hurling games back in birr as hillbillies crowing about Sashs and tradition it's frankly ridiculous and beneath you.
Firstly, this is the kind of logical, thought-out, reasonable pro-Birr argument that I've been trying to find. I don't think for a minute that everyone in favour of playing more hurling in SBP is some kind of hillbilly, but being honest, there has been too much airtime given to hillbilly-style nonsense.
Despite what anyone may think, I don't want to "win" any debate - I want what's best for Offaly, and if there are people that can convince me that more hurling in Birr is the way forward, then I'll row in behind it. I want to hear those arguments. However you have to admit that there are people out there who think that tradition is a valid argument, and they are the same ones that are feeding this nonsense about not being able to hurl in OCP to the next generation. I want those lads to get sense and shut the hell up, so that reasonable contributors like yourself can take the floor and actually help move this debate forward.
Just on the points again:
(1) Honestly, I don't know. There is no argument that SBP in its current guise is superior to Nenagh for example, and from what I believe the Birr GAA committee are open minded to making further improvements and funding it themselves as well, so I'm not looking to shut this door at all. I'm saying that it's a fact, and it must be dealt with as such - not going on and blaming clubs that support hurling in OCP for the status quo qhen it couldn't change even if they want to.
(2) On average, if you take it that we play at least two games every year and we now have a home and away arrangement with all counties in Leinster bar Galway and Antrim (and that will come) then we'll play at least one championship game per year in OCP and possibly more. Yes we could be drawn away in the championship and again in a qualifier, but mathematically speaking, given that we'll hurl at least two games a year, logically we'll play ten championship games in OCP per decade. That is significant - leaving aside the fact that OCP is much closer in size to all other decent pitches. The only county ground I know of that is anywhere close to being as small as Birr is Parnell Park.
(3) With all due respect, I'm getting tired of this idea that the consumer base is in the South, and that there are more supporters down there. The stats simply don't bear that out. I've tried as best I can to get attendance figures for SBP and OCP for the five years before and after the handover, and it's bloody hard to get. However I stand over my previous point - club games have got bigger crowds, county underage games have got smaller crowds, and NHL matches broadly similar. That's what I've got from the county board, from newspaper research and from the Leinster Council. The onus here is on Birr to prove that there are 1000 extra people going to go to games in the South, and all I've heard is "there just are".
Secondly, if you tell a professional organisation that you can have one venue for free, and that venue has to be paid for regardless, while the other venue has a rent cost (however small) then of course they will factor that into the argument, as they should, and as the Offaly CB should.
(4&5) Broad agreement. 5 overlaps with 6 below.
(6) First of all, I don't think it's as clear as saying there is a better "atmosphere" in Birr, as if that's just a statement of fact. One of the things that troubles me about the whole Pro-SBP argument is that it seems to rely heavily on ethereal things that you can't measure. I agree that it can be a bit noisier on account of the lower roof, and the general compacted nature of the stadium helps all this, I really don't think this is such a key issue as to over-rule more primary, hurling based concerns such as the fact that OCP is considered a great field by everyone I've heard from other than South Offaly people and that we have to get used to it as our home venue. I'd wager there would be fantastic noise if you wedged everyone into the stand in Kinnitty, but that's not an argument to move our county hurling there.
(7) I was reluctant to include this, since I think it's a trival point, but now that we're here. Leaving out rail - and I don't see for a minute how a rail station fifteen minutes away is a help when you can't bring your car on the train - Birr is easier to access from Limerick and Clare, and some parts of Tipperary. For both Galway and Laois (even counting hurling parts only) travelling times are broadly similar. You're far closer to Tullamore at Portlaoise or Athenry, you're far closer to Birr at Rathdowney or Portumna. Cork, Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny, there is less than ten minutes in the difference to either. Dublin, Westmeath, Carlow, Antrim, all far easier to get to Tullamore.
Now considering we hurl in the Leinster championship, and in NHL 1B, then Tullamore looks closer - if we were interested in getting too hung up on away supporters, which I frankly wouldn't be that worried about. It's a minor consideration relative to the others.
Ultimately, you say that we'll never convince each other. Obviously you know your own mind, so if you say I won't convince you, then I won't. However it might surprise you to learn that I'm actually very open to being convinced here. I'd love to be talked around, if someone could do it in a clear and logical fashion. However all I seem to get is abuse (mostly not on this board in fairness), and be told that I'll never understand because I've never hurled on the field myself. (Which I have at under-14, but that's beside the point!
)
Kevin Egan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.