2014 WALSH Cup

[bracknaghboy]

No searingdrive there is no one here who has came up with a reason why hurling games should not
be played in Birr, lets call an Ace a Ace they only reason the games are in tullamore is they are up to their tits in money problems to pay for it.

We all need to remember that O'Connor Park was developed because in the mid 00's it was clear that we were no longer in a position to hold home championship fixtures. This was because of health and safety restrictions. Rather than sitting on their arses and doing nothing about it and ending up like Kildare (never to host a Leinster championship game for the foreseeable future) they put a fantastic stadium in place that's the envy of most counties in the country and not only are we hosting our own games we are getting all sorts of other games as well...happy days.
The way some of the return hurling to Birr advocates talk of O'Connor Park you'd swear the county board built it for a laugh or for the sake of it or you'd think they took all the counties money and built a stadium in a foreign country!! The bottom line is only for O'Connor Park we wouldn't be able to play home championship matches. So if playing league games in Tullamore helps pay off any debt associated with it then so be it. We are all one county.

[townman]

as i wrote yes championships game for the crowd should be in tullamore, what i would like to see is a few league games, walsh cup games, maybe underage games, offaly hurl carlow in the minor last year in Birr and there was a great crowd at it, and it was on the same evening as offaly minor footballers beat meath. the next home game was again Dublin where did they play it in tullamore and no one at it.

yes if you want to support your county you will go, but i have spoken to alot of people that night of the carlow game and they said they would't go to it if it was in tullamore. tullamore is top class pitch stand terrace top class i never miss a hurling game there, and as i am living in castlecomer the last number of years i'd have to travel as far as any fan, funny that tullamore as the home ground off the top of my head over the last few years or since the stand was build i think the only leinster championship wins we have is in hurling.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Offaly last played a NFL match in Birr against Derry in 1986, which seems to have been part of a double header with an NHL match against Dublin. Previously they played Roscommon there in the NFL in 1966. Those are the only two occasions I can see Offaly having played league football in Birr.

It has been rare enough for Offaly to play football at a venue other than Tullamore. Other occasions I can see are –

1946 v Kildare in Edenderry
1950 v Leitrim in Edenderry
1989 v Westmeath in Walsh Island
1995 v London and Limerick both in Walsh Island
2003 v London in Gracefield

And that’s it. Eight home football matches over a 70 year period played outside Tullamore. Now part of that is that, if Tullamore is deemed unplayable following overnight rain there is no other option and the match gets postponed. If Tullamore is unplayable then so too is Birr, whereas if Birr is flooded Tullamore is not necessarily so indisposed.

Just an after thought, Can someone answer this for me. When is the last time an Offaly Football team played a competitive game south of the Blueball? and i'm really not to worried if its the Townland or the pub you judge it by.

[babsandbond]

blinkers jesus why dont you give lone shark a big kiss and a hug while your at it.nenagh and walsh park in waterford both has grass banks...they hold league matches...so lone shark why couldnt birr hold "big" matches if pitches like these are...???

[Lone Shark]

blinkers jesus why dont you give lone shark a big kiss and a hug while your at it.nenagh and walsh park in waterford both has grass banks...they hold league matches...so lone shark why couldnt birr hold "big" matches if pitches like these are...???

Walsh Park is a dump, but it's also the best Waterford have. League games get held there because otherwise, they'd have to be held in Nowlan Park. Waterford are another of those counties that haven't had a home championship match in forever, though I accept they might have had a home qualifier there against a weaker county at some stage - I can't remember.

And Nenagh doesn't "hold" league games - it's scheduled to get one this year, for the first time since Offaly's relegation playoff with Limerick. We'll see whether it happens or not, but even if it does, am I then to take it that Birr would equally be happy with one game every five years?




Also, I'm in no position to condemn people who don't get to go to as many games they'd like - for work reasons I've to cover games every weekend and sometimes you get to watch the Offaly match, sometimes you don't. I will say this though - if you have the time and can afford to go, but you choose not to because of the venue - you're no supporter. I've no problem with passionate people from any club who would argue in favour of SBP hosting more matches - if you're a club member, you're entitled to do so, that's how a democracy works. But the genuine people among those are still there in OCP as well, because they want to see and support Offaly teams. But if you're a fair weather supporter who has a chip on your shoulder because it's not right on your doorstep any more, then you're no loss to our county.

[Toxicity234]

Thanks for info POTH. now that you said it i remember being at the Derry/Dublin Football and Hurling games. i was 8 at the time.

Lone shark said that Birr would need to have i Think you call it "second pitch states". ( hope i have that correct.) What is the process for getting this??

Someone on here said that Hurling was for everyone. I completely agree. As is Football. Its a shocking that over the last 50 Years only 2 games have cross into the south of the county.
I think that some people on here want to turn hurling people in the south of the county into comic book supervillains that want to keep hurling in there part of the kingdom.
That is complete and utter Bulls*t.
What these people want is some part of the pie. At the moment They have NOTHING. The biggest Game played in the South of Offaly last year was the U-21 Hurling Final and U-21 Semi Finals.
The Question is where that is fair, The answer to anyone with a mind of there own is NO.

For the area as Whole, Some High Class Hurling and Football games should be Played in Birr and from a financial point of view for Birr as a town the loss of these game was huge over the last 10 years. People on here are only think in term of GAA but the wide affect a few games has on a town, losing these game is massive. and the effect of losing these games on Birr has being Huge.

The Offaly Board should have 2 quarter finals in Hurling and Football, One Semi Final in Hurling and football. at least one League game in Hurling and football and all Walsh cup and O'Byrne games in Birr. Again i'll stated this that if Tullamore shouldn't be a problem for the Hurlers then Birr shouldn't be a problem for the Footballers.

No one on here has said the Tullamore is a bad place to play in fact most on here think it a great place to play(As Do I). But anyone on here who has played in Birr know it a great place to play as well.

[townman]

you hit the nail on the head their toxicity great post, but i am sure there will be lads on to say it is madness to play football matches in Birr, and it wouldn't work, yet they want to see all hurling games in tullamore.

[True Red]

If the county board decided to spread the Football Gospel to the 'Hurling Heartland' and Edenderry were fixed to play a Senior County qtr or semi final in Birr against say the like of Ferbane, Clara or Ballycumber I would defintely travel the 40 miles to St Brendan's Park. No problem.

I would grumble about it and say it was a bit of stretch to bringing the Reds all the way down to Birr, but it wouldnt stop me going to the match to support my Club.

[townman]

or i wouldn't have a problem watching Birr in Edenderry if the case came, what problem is Birrs not getting any games now, even if it was the county final .

[Toxicity234]

If the county board decided to spread the Football Gospel to the 'Hurling Heartland' and Edenderry were fixed to play a Senior County qtr or semi final in Birr against say the like of Ferbane, Clara or Ballycumber I would defintely travel the 40 miles to St Brendan's Park. No problem.

I would grumble about it and say it was a bit of stretch to bringing the Reds all the way down to Birr, but it wouldnt stop me going to the match to support my Club.

Good to hear that you come south, I have to say that if the spread of the game was done in the correct way, The Hurling basic in the south of the county don't have a problem with play major games in tullamore as it great for the county to be playing Major Game. But All they want is have a fair selection of game for Birr. As St Brendan park has always being an important part of there identity. Just as O'Connor Park is a major part of the identity of Offaly Football.

For the County Board to wipe St Brendan Park out of the Inter County and Major Club occasion permanently is as big as asking Liverpool to move to Goodison Park and asking them to play second fiddle to Everton.

This was drill home to me today. I meet a old Dublin Footballer and we were chatting and he hear I was from Offaly and ask if I was from Birr or Tullamore. When I said I was from outside Birr but living in Tullamore. He smiled and said A hurling man.

[backofthenet]

Can anyone point out a valid reason that Birr can't hold Walsh cup / league games?

(1) With regard to league games, as of now, they're not allowed. That may change, but it's up to Birr to get it changed by convincing the county board why they should fight for it. All I've heard is schyte about "tradition". By the way, nobody has come out and said that they'd have a problem with Walsh Cup ties being played there.
(2) It's a smaller field, completely dis-similar to any of the grounds that the county will be playing championship hurling in. Tullamore is almost identical in size to Croke Park, Thurles, and most of the main grounds. In terms of preparing for championship, it's not suitable for that reason.
(3) Despite your nonsensical assertion that a professional team would base itself in Birr, the truth is that attendances have been largely similar at the two grounds. There is no income advantage to going to Birr, and a small, but real, cost disadvantage. So I'd be pretty confident that if the Offaly county board was motivated by money only, this would be a very short discussion. Even now, it has to be considered.
(4) It's where we will play our home championship games, so it makes sense that players are familiar with the venue in Summer and get to know it in Spring.
(5) The facilities for players, supporters, visitors, disabled, and media is second to none in Ireland and vastly better than Birr.
(6) This constant wrestling between venues is distracting from the real things that are holding back Offaly hurling, one of which is the constant propaganda from SBP advocates saying that we can't hurl in Tullamore, or that it's some kind of disadvantage. That is incredibly harmful and needs to be put to bed.
(7) Tullamore is incredibly accessible from all sides, as well as by rail for those who travel that way. We're into minor details now I'll grant you, but I just thought I'd tack it on.

And can we PLEASE stop using this gibberish about heartland/tradition/the sash my father wore etc. We are one county, not two. Hurling is for everyone, and on a purely personal level, the fact that Birr and environs had the advantage of hosting county games for generations and yet hurling around Tullamore has come on in leaps and bounds in just a few years speaks volumes. In fact if Birr and the local area is such a heartland, they don't need home games, shur it's all in the blood anyway.

Has anyone noted here that for all the talk of Walsh Cup games going to other venues in Offaly and comparisons with elsewhere, I promise you you won't see any league games in Freshford, Rathdowney, Sixmilebridge, etc. You won't even see them in Athenry, the traditional "heartland" venue in Galway. You'll see games in Ballycastle, because Casement Park is being done up. You'll see games in Páirc Uí Rinn, because it's a designated second county ground and it has lights, while PUC doesn't. And currently, Tipp have scheduled one game for Nenagh, which has a second county ground status - but that said, I'm not convinced that that will go ahead in McDonagh Park, since the Dubs will bring a decent crowd down.

Ok well take it point for point

Point 1: Ok fair point but apart from convincing the county board what criteria is not currently being met?

Point 2: It might not necessarily be a disadvantage that it is not as large as Croker or Thurles. Its not as if Offaly play in either venue on a very consistent basis, at the moment were lucky to get one trip a year to Croker for the hurlers and were more likely to play in nowlan park, port laoise etc.

Point 3: So it's nonsensical that a professional organisation would base themselves in the centre of their consumer fan base around a stadia that they own & can actually fill??!! Firstly I would claim that there would be an income advantage but even if there wasn't, there certainly would be a cost advantage as they wouldn't have the massive cost of actually building the new stadium in the first instance!

Point 4: This is a fair point however I think it would have more weight were there not so many club matches / county training going on in OC so the players are all familiar with the venue anyway.

Point 5: I would agree on on this point however supporters are all about the experience. I've never once thought oh sure the atmosphere is crap but at least I've somewhere to take a p@ss.

Point 6: Totally disagree with you here, I would be an advocate clearly for hurling at least in part to return to birr, not because of tradition or any of that sh@te as you say but simply because there is a better experience for supporters, better atmosphere which teams feed off and I would argue will make financial sense.

Point 7: This is really bad, firstly there is a rail link in Roscrea which is about 15 mins away for all the train goers heading to these Walsh cup matches! Secondly you are really contradicting yourself birr is the most central location for the majority of supporters for any intercounty hurling match that involves Offaly.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hurling is for everyone and personally I'd like to see the large ball done away with so the entire county could focus on the sport but that's just me!! I'm joking of course!

I doubt either of us will convince the other lone shark but please stop trying to paint anyone who wants the hurling games back in birr as hillbillies crowing about Sashs and tradition it's frankly ridiculous and beneath you.

[townman]

with all the talk about how good tullamore is, theres no lights there even if we were a first division team in either code we would get no games showed live evening games, salthill,parnell park,portlaoise,thurles,gaelic grounds, cork, tralee, all have lights, besides gracefield we have lost
home views the last few years because we have no ground big enough to hold under 21 or minor games
yes tullamore is a fine ground but we suffer when it comes to underage played early in the year as big as it is.

[townman]

Can anyone point out a valid reason that Birr can't hold Walsh cup / league games?

(1) With regard to league games, as of now, they're not allowed. That may change, but it's up to Birr to get it changed by convincing the county board why they should fight for it. All I've heard is schyte about "tradition". By the way, nobody has come out and said that they'd have a problem with Walsh Cup ties being played there.
(2) It's a smaller field, completely dis-similar to any of the grounds that the county will be playing championship hurling in. Tullamore is almost identical in size to Croke Park, Thurles, and most of the main grounds. In terms of preparing for championship, it's not suitable for that reason.
(3) Despite your nonsensical assertion that a professional team would base itself in Birr, the truth is that attendances have been largely similar at the two grounds. There is no income advantage to going to Birr, and a small, but real, cost disadvantage. So I'd be pretty confident that if the Offaly county board was motivated by money only, this would be a very short discussion. Even now, it has to be considered.
(4) It's where we will play our home championship games, so it makes sense that players are familiar with the venue in Summer and get to know it in Spring.
(5) The facilities for players, supporters, visitors, disabled, and media is second to none in Ireland and vastly better than Birr.
(6) This constant wrestling between venues is distracting from the real things that are holding back Offaly hurling, one of which is the constant propaganda from SBP advocates saying that we can't hurl in Tullamore, or that it's some kind of disadvantage. That is incredibly harmful and needs to be put to bed.
(7) Tullamore is incredibly accessible from all sides, as well as by rail for those who travel that way. We're into minor details now I'll grant you, but I just thought I'd tack it on.

And can we PLEASE stop using this gibberish about heartland/tradition/the sash my father wore etc. We are one county, not two. Hurling is for everyone, and on a purely personal level, the fact that Birr and environs had the advantage of hosting county games for generations and yet hurling around Tullamore has come on in leaps and bounds in just a few years speaks volumes. In fact if Birr and the local area is such a heartland, they don't need home games, shur it's all in the blood anyway.

Has anyone noted here that for all the talk of Walsh Cup games going to other venues in Offaly and comparisons with elsewhere, I promise you you won't see any league games in Freshford, Rathdowney, Sixmilebridge, etc. You won't even see them in Athenry, the traditional "heartland" venue in Galway. You'll see games in Ballycastle, because Casement Park is being done up. You'll see games in Páirc Uí Rinn, because it's a designated second county ground and it has lights, while PUC doesn't. And currently, Tipp have scheduled one game for Nenagh, which has a second county ground status - but that said, I'm not convinced that that will go ahead in McDonagh Park, since the Dubs will bring a decent crowd down.

Ok well take it point for point

Point 1: Ok fair point but apart from convincing the county board what criteria is not currently being met?

Point 2: It might not necessarily be a disadvantage that it is not as large as Croker or Thurles. Its not as if Offaly play in either venue on a very consistent basis, at the moment were lucky to get one trip a year to Croker for the hurlers and were more likely to play in nowlan park, port laoise etc.

Point 3: So it's nonsensical that a professional organisation would base themselves in the centre of their consumer fan base around a stadia that they own & can actually fill??!! Firstly I would claim that there would be an income advantage but even if there wasn't, there certainly would be a cost advantage as they wouldn't have the massive cost of actually building the new stadium in the first instance!

Point 4: This is a fair point however I think it would have more weight were there not so many club matches / county training going on in OC so the players are all familiar with the venue anyway.

Point 5: I would agree on on this point however supporters are all about the experience. I've never once thought oh sure the atmosphere is crap but at least I've somewhere to take a p@ss.

Point 6: Totally disagree with you here, I would be an advocate clearly for hurling at least in part to return to birr, not because of tradition or any of that sh@te as you say but simply because there is a better experience for supporters, better atmosphere which teams feed off and I would argue will make financial sense.

Point 7: This is really bad, firstly there is a rail link in Roscrea which is about 15 mins away for all the train goers heading to these Walsh cup matches! Secondly you are really contradicting yourself birr is the most central location for the majority of supporters for any intercounty hurling match that involves Offaly.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hurling is for everyone and personally I'd like to see the large ball done away with so the entire county could focus on the sport but that's just me!! I'm joking of course!

I doubt either of us will convince the other lone shark but please stop trying to paint anyone who wants the hurling games back in birr as hillbillies crowing about Sashs and tradition it's frankly ridiculous and beneath you.

yes your right about hillbillies you think to listen to lone shark that he was brought up in iner city and got the dart to school, some forget where they came from

[Plain of the Herbs]

There are permanent lights Fierce Stadium? Since when?

Make some sense the odd time please.

with all the talk about how good tullamore is, theres no lights there even if we were a first division team in either code we would get no games showed live evening games, salthill,parnell park,portlaoise,thurles,gaelic grounds, cork, tralee, all have lights, besides gracefield we have lost
home views the last few years because we have no ground big enough to hold under 21 or minor games
yes tullamore is a fine ground but we suffer when it comes to underage played early in the year as big as it is.

[Lone Shark]

Can anyone point out a valid reason that Birr can't hold Walsh cup / league games?

(1) With regard to league games, as of now, they're not allowed. That may change, but it's up to Birr to get it changed by convincing the county board why they should fight for it. All I've heard is schyte about "tradition". By the way, nobody has come out and said that they'd have a problem with Walsh Cup ties being played there.
(2) It's a smaller field, completely dis-similar to any of the grounds that the county will be playing championship hurling in. Tullamore is almost identical in size to Croke Park, Thurles, and most of the main grounds. In terms of preparing for championship, it's not suitable for that reason.
(3) Despite your nonsensical assertion that a professional team would base itself in Birr, the truth is that attendances have been largely similar at the two grounds. There is no income advantage to going to Birr, and a small, but real, cost disadvantage. So I'd be pretty confident that if the Offaly county board was motivated by money only, this would be a very short discussion. Even now, it has to be considered.
(4) It's where we will play our home championship games, so it makes sense that players are familiar with the venue in Summer and get to know it in Spring.
(5) The facilities for players, supporters, visitors, disabled, and media is second to none in Ireland and vastly better than Birr.
(6) This constant wrestling between venues is distracting from the real things that are holding back Offaly hurling, one of which is the constant propaganda from SBP advocates saying that we can't hurl in Tullamore, or that it's some kind of disadvantage. That is incredibly harmful and needs to be put to bed.
(7) Tullamore is incredibly accessible from all sides, as well as by rail for those who travel that way. We're into minor details now I'll grant you, but I just thought I'd tack it on.

And can we PLEASE stop using this gibberish about heartland/tradition/the sash my father wore etc. We are one county, not two. Hurling is for everyone, and on a purely personal level, the fact that Birr and environs had the advantage of hosting county games for generations and yet hurling around Tullamore has come on in leaps and bounds in just a few years speaks volumes. In fact if Birr and the local area is such a heartland, they don't need home games, shur it's all in the blood anyway.

Has anyone noted here that for all the talk of Walsh Cup games going to other venues in Offaly and comparisons with elsewhere, I promise you you won't see any league games in Freshford, Rathdowney, Sixmilebridge, etc. You won't even see them in Athenry, the traditional "heartland" venue in Galway. You'll see games in Ballycastle, because Casement Park is being done up. You'll see games in Páirc Uí Rinn, because it's a designated second county ground and it has lights, while PUC doesn't. And currently, Tipp have scheduled one game for Nenagh, which has a second county ground status - but that said, I'm not convinced that that will go ahead in McDonagh Park, since the Dubs will bring a decent crowd down.

Ok well take it point for point

Point 1: Ok fair point but apart from convincing the county board what criteria is not currently being met?

Point 2: It might not necessarily be a disadvantage that it is not as large as Croker or Thurles. Its not as if Offaly play in either venue on a very consistent basis, at the moment were lucky to get one trip a year to Croker for the hurlers and were more likely to play in nowlan park, port laoise etc.

Point 3: So it's nonsensical that a professional organisation would base themselves in the centre of their consumer fan base around a stadia that they own & can actually fill??!! Firstly I would claim that there would be an income advantage but even if there wasn't, there certainly would be a cost advantage as they wouldn't have the massive cost of actually building the new stadium in the first instance!

Point 4: This is a fair point however I think it would have more weight were there not so many club matches / county training going on in OC so the players are all familiar with the venue anyway.

Point 5: I would agree on on this point however supporters are all about the experience. I've never once thought oh sure the atmosphere is crap but at least I've somewhere to take a p@ss.

Point 6: Totally disagree with you here, I would be an advocate clearly for hurling at least in part to return to birr, not because of tradition or any of that sh@te as you say but simply because there is a better experience for supporters, better atmosphere which teams feed off and I would argue will make financial sense.

Point 7: This is really bad, firstly there is a rail link in Roscrea which is about 15 mins away for all the train goers heading to these Walsh cup matches! Secondly you are really contradicting yourself birr is the most central location for the majority of supporters for any intercounty hurling match that involves Offaly.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hurling is for everyone and personally I'd like to see the large ball done away with so the entire county could focus on the sport but that's just me!! I'm joking of course!

I doubt either of us will convince the other lone shark but please stop trying to paint anyone who wants the hurling games back in birr as hillbillies crowing about Sashs and tradition it's frankly ridiculous and beneath you.

Firstly, this is the kind of logical, thought-out, reasonable pro-Birr argument that I've been trying to find. I don't think for a minute that everyone in favour of playing more hurling in SBP is some kind of hillbilly, but being honest, there has been too much airtime given to hillbilly-style nonsense.

Despite what anyone may think, I don't want to "win" any debate - I want what's best for Offaly, and if there are people that can convince me that more hurling in Birr is the way forward, then I'll row in behind it. I want to hear those arguments. However you have to admit that there are people out there who think that tradition is a valid argument, and they are the same ones that are feeding this nonsense about not being able to hurl in OCP to the next generation. I want those lads to get sense and shut the hell up, so that reasonable contributors like yourself can take the floor and actually help move this debate forward.

Just on the points again:

(1) Honestly, I don't know. There is no argument that SBP in its current guise is superior to Nenagh for example, and from what I believe the Birr GAA committee are open minded to making further improvements and funding it themselves as well, so I'm not looking to shut this door at all. I'm saying that it's a fact, and it must be dealt with as such - not going on and blaming clubs that support hurling in OCP for the status quo qhen it couldn't change even if they want to.

(2) On average, if you take it that we play at least two games every year and we now have a home and away arrangement with all counties in Leinster bar Galway and Antrim (and that will come) then we'll play at least one championship game per year in OCP and possibly more. Yes we could be drawn away in the championship and again in a qualifier, but mathematically speaking, given that we'll hurl at least two games a year, logically we'll play ten championship games in OCP per decade. That is significant - leaving aside the fact that OCP is much closer in size to all other decent pitches. The only county ground I know of that is anywhere close to being as small as Birr is Parnell Park.

(3) With all due respect, I'm getting tired of this idea that the consumer base is in the South, and that there are more supporters down there. The stats simply don't bear that out. I've tried as best I can to get attendance figures for SBP and OCP for the five years before and after the handover, and it's bloody hard to get. However I stand over my previous point - club games have got bigger crowds, county underage games have got smaller crowds, and NHL matches broadly similar. That's what I've got from the county board, from newspaper research and from the Leinster Council. The onus here is on Birr to prove that there are 1000 extra people going to go to games in the South, and all I've heard is "there just are".
Secondly, if you tell a professional organisation that you can have one venue for free, and that venue has to be paid for regardless, while the other venue has a rent cost (however small) then of course they will factor that into the argument, as they should, and as the Offaly CB should.

(4&5) Broad agreement. 5 overlaps with 6 below.

(6) First of all, I don't think it's as clear as saying there is a better "atmosphere" in Birr, as if that's just a statement of fact. One of the things that troubles me about the whole Pro-SBP argument is that it seems to rely heavily on ethereal things that you can't measure. I agree that it can be a bit noisier on account of the lower roof, and the general compacted nature of the stadium helps all this, I really don't think this is such a key issue as to over-rule more primary, hurling based concerns such as the fact that OCP is considered a great field by everyone I've heard from other than South Offaly people and that we have to get used to it as our home venue. I'd wager there would be fantastic noise if you wedged everyone into the stand in Kinnitty, but that's not an argument to move our county hurling there.

(7) I was reluctant to include this, since I think it's a trival point, but now that we're here. Leaving out rail - and I don't see for a minute how a rail station fifteen minutes away is a help when you can't bring your car on the train - Birr is easier to access from Limerick and Clare, and some parts of Tipperary. For both Galway and Laois (even counting hurling parts only) travelling times are broadly similar. You're far closer to Tullamore at Portlaoise or Athenry, you're far closer to Birr at Rathdowney or Portumna. Cork, Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny, there is less than ten minutes in the difference to either. Dublin, Westmeath, Carlow, Antrim, all far easier to get to Tullamore.

Now considering we hurl in the Leinster championship, and in NHL 1B, then Tullamore looks closer - if we were interested in getting too hung up on away supporters, which I frankly wouldn't be that worried about. It's a minor consideration relative to the others.



Ultimately, you say that we'll never convince each other. Obviously you know your own mind, so if you say I won't convince you, then I won't. However it might surprise you to learn that I'm actually very open to being convinced here. I'd love to be talked around, if someone could do it in a clear and logical fashion. However all I seem to get is abuse (mostly not on this board in fairness), and be told that I'll never understand because I've never hurled on the field myself. (Which I have at under-14, but that's beside the point! )