New championship structure

[offalyman]

Offaly clubs vote 33 to 16 in favour of new football champ. structure for 2015 - 4 teams to be relegated from senior in 2014 to senior B. 4 teams to be promoted from intermediate in 2014 to Senior B. 2015 will see 8 teams in senior, 8 senior B and 8 intermediate....

[Greenwhiteandgold]

That sounds like a great move. Is there any recommendations for changes to the hurling championships?

[Lone Shark]

I can't say I agree with this at all, though obviously if such a large majority voted in favour, there must be something I'm missing. My concerns would be:

(1) Eight team round robin groups are almost guaranteed to be uncompetitive in the latter stages of competition, particularly when the only divide that matters is between 4th and 5th. There's even an issue of competition integrity when a team might have won their first five games, so in rounds six and seven they've no incentive to try - that could be very significant when aspects like injuries and protecting players for Junior/Intermediate teams is factored into play.

(2) Where in the name of God are we going to fit these extra games, and still give clubs access to their county players? I'm looking back on last year's calendar and I'm trying to pick two weekends where you could have inserted more games for dual clubs with county hurlers in their ranks - I genuinely don't see how this is going to be done. If we want to abolish dual players then fine, just go ahead and do it, but be open about it. Take someone like Pat Camon, who was on the county under-21 and senior hurling panel. How could we find two more weekends when you could be sure that he'd be available?

(3) Last year's intermediate championship was a really excellent championship. The vast, vast majority of games were competitive, and I really don't see why a championship like that needed to be altered.

(4) There are other minor issues - for example the county board seems to want to create a situation where the SFC B winners go into the Leinster Intermediate championship. I'd be stunned if the Leinster Council allowed this, particularly since counties like Laois and Kildare have 16 senior teams and their 17th team goes into this competition. Secondly, if that happens, which of the IFC and JFC winners gets to play junior, and who misses out?

(5) The idea behind this competition seems to be to motivate some of the weaker senior teams to have something to play for. Yet is a contrived competition like this really going to motivate guys? I genuinely don't know, I'm open to being convinced on this, but I expect that playing for a title that never existed before wouldn't motivate teams as much as playing in the senior championship, even if the chances of beating the top four are slight.


I expect that after a year of this new format, maybe two at most, this will be discarded. Would anyone from any of the clubs that supported this like to explain their thinking, because I'd love to hear the argument in favour of this change?

[blinkers]

I can see fixture choas looming in 2015. For the senior dual clubs and indeed across the board. I sincerly hope this has been well taught out. I have my doubts tho. I agree with lone shark this could be scraped after a couple of yrs but the decision is made so clubs have to go with it now.

Can a club have a senior team and senior b team. Seen someone ask the question on twitter last night. I.e if tullamore are in the senior quarter final next yr and make the the intermediate semi finals next yr that means they should have a senior team and a senior b team.

Another point I agree on with lone shark the intermediate championship last yr was very competitive so why change it.

The arguement I have heard for this new structure is that every team should have the chance of winning the respective championship they are in. Realistically what is going to change since 1996 only 4 teams have won the senior football and realistically that aint going to change for a while yet with maybe ferbane making a breakthrough with all the underage success they have had.

[Plain of the Herbs]

Answer to this is 'yes'.

Can a club have a senior team and senior b team. Seen someone ask the question on twitter last night. I.e if tullamore are in the senior quarter final next yr and make the the intermediate semi finals next yr that means they should have a senior team and a senior b team.

[blinkers]

Answer to this is 'yes'.

Can a club have a senior team and senior b team. Seen someone ask the question on twitter last night. I.e if tullamore are in the senior quarter final next yr and make the the intermediate semi finals next yr that means they should have a senior team and a senior b team.

Thanks

[High School Musical]

So, the new football championship format proposal for 2015 has been ratified (or is it just managers that are ratified?) and will see the introduction of the Senior B championship. Call me what you like, but any proposal involving the letter ‘B’ as a stand alone descriptor and you’ve lost me straightaway. This will lead to the Senior B championship basically taking the place of the intermediate championship and, in turn, having a knock-on effect further down the chain, where Intermediate football will now become the 3rd tier of Offaly football and Junior the 4th, etc. While not a comparable model to our own county, due to number of clubs for starters, I would still look at the Dublin Senior B championship in its current guise as the template of what a Senior B championship should be. By this, I mean that the Senior B is akin to a ‘Shield’ or ‘Plate’ competition and the status of the intermediate championship as the 2nd tier of football is still retained. That is, of course, if one is to have a Senior B championship. I don’t see the point of upsetting the current grades within our county. There is nothing to be gained from it. I do agree that the format of Offaly football needs to be altered, but introducing another tier appears to me to be the wrong action. Our club championships need less games, not more. Many counties run a knockout championship with a qualifier system too. I think this is something that should be worth a look at.

This whole proposal strikes me as a bit of Craggy Island raffle situation, with the ordinary everyday ‘Joe Punter’ being represented by the Intermediate champions and the foolish beneficiary (Dougal) being played by the team finishing bottom of the Senior Championship in 2014. As a result, I now have ‘Ghost Town’ by the Specials doing laps of my brain.

Lone Shark mentioned that the Intermediate championship was an excellent championship this year. This was merely an accident, and is by no means guaranteed to happen every year with the exiting arrangement. It was run in exactly the same way as the Senior and Junior championships, both of which produced mind-numbingly awful and predictable affairs, with only a handful of games proving to be of any consequence to the final outcome of the tables. The Intermediate championship was exciting as it happened to feature a large percentage of teams that were capable of beating one another on any given day. Who would have put Clonbullogue as relegation candidates this year? And while KK were being talked about as a good addition to the Intermediate championship, did anyone really foresee them going out and actually winning the thing? If the intermediate championship developed a large gulf in class between the contenders and the pretenders, similar to both the Senior and Junior championships, it too would cease to be exciting. As for the Senior and Junior championships, they only become mildly interesting at the quarter-final stage, as has been the case for as many years as the current system has been in operation.

[Lone Shark]

While a lot of that post above makes sense, I think the failure of the Tommy Murphy Cup as a concept has proven that if clubs start out competing for one prize and lose out, they'll almost certainly show no interest in a backdoor consolation prize effort. I wouldn't make any clear statements about how competitive the SFC B is in Dublin, and I think the last county you want to model when it comes to club championship is Dublin anyway, but maybe they do it better. My guess is that they don't.

I agree too that the IFC this year was good because teams were evenly matched, and that may not continue. However there's probably as good a chance as ever of the IFC remaining this way now, while I'd also wonder about the psychological effect this will have on clubs like Daingean and Clonbullogue, i.e. bigger Junior clubs. If they don't win the JFC next year, they'll be a full three tiers away from proper senior status - they'll essentially be Junior B. Motivating players to better themselves in that environment won't be easy.

However my big thing is the fixtures, I have genuinely no idea where they think these extra two rounds of games are going to go. Bear in mind that this year basically all our teams got knocked out as soon as possible - imagine if (God Forbid!) one of our county teams went on a run? For example, let's look at the 2014 schedule, based on the Leinster championship draws as we know them. I'm going to presume for the purposes of this exercise that the Senior footballers and senior hurlers both get knocked out in the first round of the Leinster championship, but that the either the senior footballers win three games, or that the hurlers win two - perhaps a little optimistic but not too unreasonable given the stage they'll enter. I'll also assume that the U21 hurlers get knocked out at the first attempt, that neither minor team goes anywhere, that we continue to leave just one weekend for players to book holidays, and that we kick things off at the end of April - so I'm not taking any liberties.

Week ending

27/4 Round 1 SFC
4/5 Round 1 SHC
11/5 No games - 1 week before Leinster SFC
18/5 No games - Leinster SFC
25/5 Round 2 SFC
1/6 - No games - 1 week before Leinster SHC
8/6 - No games - Leinster SHC
15/6 - Round 3 - SFC
22/6 - No games - 3 days before U21 HC
29/6 - No games - Qualifiers (F)
6/7 - No games - Qualifiers (F/H)
13/7 - No games - Qualifiers (F/H)
20/7 - No games - Qualifiers (either)
27/7 - Round 2 SHC
3/8 - No games - designated holiday week
10/8 - Round 4 SFC
17/8 - Round 3 SHC
24/8 - Round 5 SFC
31/8 - Round 4 SHC
7/9 - Round 6 SFC
14/9 - Round 5 SHC
21/9 - Round 7 SFC
28/9 - QF's SHC
5/10 - SF's SFC
12/10 - SF's SHC
19/10 - F SFC
26/10 - F SHC

Now there are a lot of problems there from what I can tell - you have the hurlers one game in early May and their second in late July, you have dual players bouncing between codes without any rest, and if you get so much as one postponement, either for a club bereavement, a draw, freak weather (we are going right into late October here) then you have a situation where either or SFC football or hurling winners would have to play two games in a weekend, as happened in Clare this year - unless they get a first round bye.

Now imagine our hurlers beat Kilkenny in the championship, or the U21 hurlers win a game, or either senior team reaches either a provincial final or an All Ireland quarter final - not likely admittedly, but hardly impossible either. This system only barely works if none of our county teams achieve anything meaningful.


And after all this, I can't for the life of me see what the positive aspects are - can anyone enlighten me?

[bracknaghboy]

I'm glad this getting some debate. However it so complicated I hardly know where to start?
The senior championship as currently being played with 2 groups of six with 8 progressing to 1/4 finals can only be having a negative influence on football in the county. So many meaningless games with little or no bite. Even the 1/4's this year were brutal affairs with exception of Edenderry and Gracefield game.So a change was badly needed. Championship 2014 will be the most competitive one in years. Only 6 knockout spots and the rest fighting for survival.....an interesting year ahead indeed. Can you imagine if Clara or Edenderry were to finish in the bottom 2 ....expect a shock!

I fully agree with HSM about the 'B' label. It really does nothing for me and I can't see it inspiring many. OK so senior in 2015 will consist of 8 teams which I think is realistically about right. How about 2 groups of 4 and top 2 into semi's? Too few games I hear you say. But they'd be very competitive games others would argue.
The notion of one group of 8 teams puts us back to square one really with each team playing out 7 rounds which will no doubt be littered with meaningless games and as LS points out will crowd up the fixtures list even more. I'd expect to see county finals being played in early November if that goes ahead!

Intermediate championship will now be totally devalued as the team that wins it no longer goes proper senior and also they'll have won it without the what would have been the best 4 teams in it.

As for senior 'B' I really can't think of any thing good to say about it. A bit like purgatory, teams will be banished to it for their sins .
So in conclusion the senior championship will be improved via the quality of teams in it but it could end with many meaningless games if a large group of 8 goes ahead.
Senior 'B' will struggle to shake off its tag of irrelevance. Whilst Intermediate will be totally devalued now.
However I say all this fully aware that something needs to be done to improve the current system....I'm just not sure what it is.

[jimbob17]

While there may be merit in it in giving each team something tangible to play for, was there any consultation with clubs on identifying how best to go about this? In theory to me its great idea but when the issues mentioned become issues it gives a different perspective on it...... I know that there are senior B in other counties that have worked very well in other counties where senior B teams also have a chance of winning senior A. Its a simple system but allows teams play at their own level with good chance of success

In this strong hurling county there are 18 senior hurling teams where there used to be 16.
3 groups of 4 comprise senior A groups.
2 groups of 4 comprise senior B groups.

top 2 from senior A qualify for Q finals (6 teams)
top 1 in each of senior B groups qualify for senior A Q final.
Senior B final is played between these 2 teams when both teams are out with 1 going to senior A.
1 relegation semi and final (3 bottom teams) from senior A relegating one team to senior B for following year.
Bottom team in senior B groups play off for relegation to inter....

Now i know there are not 18 teams but it could be conceivably be done with 12 present teams or maybe add 2 or 4 teams to make 14 or 16 teams for 2 groups of 7 or 4x4 with 2 senior A and 2 senior B.

with 16 you could have
2x4 senior A and 2 x 4 senior B
top team in senior A goes straight to semi with second place teams in senior A meeting top placed teams in senior B in q finals.
only 2 quarter finals. Bottom team in both senior A and Senior B groups to play off against each other in relegation final.... 1 Senior A team relegated to senior B and one senior B going down to inter....
Senior B Q finalists to play off in senior B final with winner going up to senior A following year....

Its a slight modification on present system giving everyone a chance to compete on own level. It also allows senior B teams compete in A championship with a back up of having a tangible chance at winning a slightly lesser competition between the 8 teams at their own level, something to strive for.... It keeps competition on every level while not dumming the value of the Senior B competition....

How difficult would this be? Most would be happy with it id say.....this took two minutes to come up with....have they any brains in there at all???

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

Its a damn shame that you guys cant run the County Board from the luxury of a computer screen, (you have great ideas but obviously are only willing to share them here). Let you into a secret, go speak to your clubs. Yes Jimbob, there was consultation with the clubs, but in effect either clubs accepted the new proposal or the status quo remained.
The main argument of the County Board was that the Senior Champioship is too predictable, (So what do they do?) I group of 8? Thus almost ensuring the top 4 finish in the top 4. That end of things is unlikely to change in the short term but is not the main problem.
The argument was put out by the clubs that dual clubs would really suffer and the response was that there is a proviso where clubs can play championship football and hurling within 3 days of each other (unlikely to be done but there is the proviso for it).
The issue of who was going to represent the county in the Leinster exercised most debate, which, while being important , is not a factor.

I disagree with your opinions on the Senior B championship. There are currently teams in the Senior Championship who are going through the motions knowing that they cant be relegated, but also knowing they can never win it. I think that teams who are relegated from Senior will fight to win the Senior B. And lets face it, there are a couple of teams in Intermediate who have been clinging on to that status in name only.

So what I see is that teams need to up the ante if they want to maintain their status quo, and they need to look at their own preparations and what they do in order to get the most out of their players .

I think the solution would be as one of you pointed out is 2 groups of 4 would make it more competitive in that a shock win for one of the weaker teams in the early rounds, (Tubber beating Tullamore) will put pressure on the big 4.

[Ahlethimoutwithit]

By the way, I dont mean that in any disrespect to you guys, but it is frustrating to see good ideas being debated here ,AFTER the decision is made.

Ive said it before, get in touch with yere clubs, change needs to be made and there will be changes to the 2015 proposal, prob for 2016. But next years championship will be hard fought as teams want to stay in Senior, plus Inter teams would love the chance to get up to Senior B, lets see how 2015 pans out, and get a structure that can work proposed for 2016.

[Lone Shark]

Ahlethimoutwithit, I think you do a lot of the posters on this board a dis-service. This accusation of everyone on here being "hurlers on the ditch" has been leveled before by different people, but the truth is very different. Many of us here are involved in our clubs, though in my case, that'll be short lived since I'm living a good bit away and will likely get involved with my new home club next year.

However I for one did raise this with my club with a list of views similar to that above, the key people within the club already agreed with my view for the same reasons, and consequently they opposed it - they didn't need any convincing to do this. However only 16 clubs opposed and 33 supported, so correctly, it's gone through. This isn't about opposing democracy though, this is about someone who supported this view coming on to explain how it's going to work, because I don' see it and the answers that were given at the local forum in Cloghan weren't satisfactory.

I will say this also - I don't think this is the right decision, however I will stand up for the county board in terms of the manner in which it was introduced. It was a big change, they discussed it at four regional meetings and the clubs were fully informed and given every chance to air their views. For that, you have to say fair play.

[kingscounty]

I would like to see the Senior championship maybe run on a knockout basis like years ago. Have the championship run on a knock out basis with the losing teams going into the Senior B championship and let them compete at two levels, first they have a chance to play against the best teams and if their good enough they will progress if not their in Senior B , each losing team drops to Senior B say up until 1/4 stage. Run the Senior B in league or group stages with bottom team relegated and leave intermediate championship as is. Incentive for winning Senior B championship maybe a bye in the first round of the following years Senior championship and avoid relegation of course.

[Lone Shark]

As above, I think that any "B" competition where it's a consolation prize for those teams that don't make the business end of the "real" championship is doomed to failure. If a team gets knocked out of the battle for the Dowling Cup, then I don't think any secondary tournament will keep their players from hopping on planes to New York or San Francisco.

As an aside, though it would be tricky, I remember Kildare experimented with a system a few years ago where they played three preliminary rounds, and each one was drawn as if from scratch. The only stipulation in the draw would be that no team could meet a team they already played. Then at the end of those three rounds, a league table was drawn up and the knockouts were based on that. I'd like to see that done with maybe four rounds of competition. You could do something like the top 5 plus ties (as in, tied on points, no-one gets knocked out on scoring difference) reach the knockout rounds. If that's 5 teams, then 4th play 5th in the only quarter final. If that's six teams, then it's 3rd vs 6th, 4th vs 5th. If by some freak set of results it's nine teams, then the top six get a bye into the quarter finals and you have 8th vs 9th playing each other to reach the quarter finals.

Equally relegation would semi-finals among the bottom four, unless more than eight teams reach the knockout stages, in which case it would be everyone else. I don't mind some teams being saved by scoring difference, as long as you have a relegation final.

The advantages are that (1) teams can't target one game and essentially give up the ghost in their match against Rhode for example, they have to go all out every time because they don't know what's around the corner. (2) You have a guarantee of four rounds of decent competitive action. (3) There would always be an incentive to win, to get further up the table and not get frozen out. Even if you are guaranteed to finish in the first five after three games, you can maximise your chances of a bye by continuing to win. (4) Scoring difference would still be important, even if you can't get knocked out of the championship on that basis. So teams would be incentivised to do their best every time, even when they are really up against it.

The drawback is that I don't know how you would handle freak results - e.g. all twelve teams end up on four points. Presumably you'd have to draw a fifth round then. Also, there is the danger of heavy draw bias - i.e. Ballycumber could be drawn to meet Rhode, Clara, Tullamore and Edenderry in subsequent rounds, while down the road Tubber could be drawn to meet Rynaghs, KK, Ferbane and Croghan. Still, that potential bias is there in every draw.