Offaly All Ireland Referees

A forum to air your views on Offaly GAA matters and beyond.
SearingDrive
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Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by SearingDrive » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:17 pm

On the eve of Brian Gavin's big day in tomorrow's All Ireland hurling final , I was thinking of Offaly men who refereed Senior All Ireland Finals, and wonder if any of you can add or delete from this list, which I have in my own head.

Brian Gavin
John Dowling RIP Hurling and Football Finals
Jimmy Flaherty RIP
Pat Connell RIP
Mick Spain RIP
Gerry Kirwan?
There is a Kirwan from Offaly, now living in Cork, who is an inter county referee, not sure if he got an All Ireland final

I know POTH, and other GAA 'anoraks', will have a complete list, and their refereeing pedigree.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by Sharp Eye » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:05 pm

Sean Robbins was in charge of the 1931 Final and a replay of the '31 final. The Kirwan born in Offaly and living in Cork which you refer to is Diarmuid Kirwan and he is best remembered for awarding Henry Shefflin a vital penalty opportunity in their victory over Tipperary. P Horan also from Offaly was in charge of the 1996 final.

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Fido
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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by Fido » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:39 pm

Brian Gavin might well get it in the neck for his performance today but I think he did very well. I feel he reffed it as a supporter would want it rather than to the letter of the law as regards the possible sending off and the extra extra time for Clare's equaliser. The striking incident in the first half was a sending off offence but more stupid than malicious and I'd say the player involved thought straight away that his All-Ireland was over. In fairness to Gavin, he took his time, weighed it up and judged, correctly, that a) the game would be spoiled by a red card and b) that another stupid incident like it was unlikely to occur. He might well get a bollocking but he saved it as a game by giving the benefit of the doubt.
Clare can complain that he gave Cork some soft frees especially in the first half, but then again he pushed the rules to give them a chance to draw it - they were well into Fergie time for the equalising point. Again, he might get a hard time but he made sure natural justice prevailed. What more can you ask of a ref than that. For once the spirit of the law won over the letter of the law.
On a side note, I thought Davy Fitz was well out of order in his comments after the game considering how it could easily have been blown up with Cork ahead. JBM in comparison was keeping it classy. Davy would do well to follow suit whatever the result next day.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by SearingDrive » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:06 pm

Thanks for information Sharp Eye, I hadn't heard of Sean Robbins, I take it the Sean Robbins Trophy is named after him. I forgot about Pat Horan in 1996.

Re Brian Gavin's performance today, He gave two frees in the first half to Cork, when both should have been frees to Clare, but they know he gave them a chance to draw, after Cork went ahead in added time.
Clare should have won today, not scoring a goal cost them the match.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:39 pm

SD (and others),

The County Board website is rarely updated any more, but they did throw up this piece on Offaly All-Ireland referees -
http://offaly.gaa.ie/offaly-news/tradit ... scontinues

Mick Spain actually never refereed a County Senior Final in his own county as the practice at the time was to have outside referees to officiate at County Deciders (as it was in several other counties).
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by Kevin » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:50 pm

Radio 1 had Marty Morrissey and DJ Carey on. They whinged on a bit too much for my liking about some of Gavin's decisions. Then again they are watching it while I was just listening and if they are not giving their opinion...

Other than that they did a really nice job. It was an exciting and enjoyable radio listen in fairness.

After the game a few more talking heads came on (not sure who said what - John Mullane was among them). They mostly commented that Gavin had a 'great', 'terrific' game and so on and so forth.

Looking forward to the highlights on the Sunday Game.
Kevin Clancey. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by Plain of the Herbs » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:54 pm

I hear what your saying, Fido, and in fairness it reflects what many others are saying. That’s why this rant isn’t directed specifically at you, rather at what the population as a whole seem to demand from hurling referees.

Does the practice of ‘saving the game’ mean that it is acceptable for fellas to strike other players across the head and that referees should turn a blind eye in the interests of ‘saving the game’? Because, in my opinion, it’s not the referee’s job to ‘save the game’, any more than it’s his job to ensure that, when there is just a point in it, the game goes to a replay.

James McGrath has been ridiculed for sending Pat Horgan off in the Munster Final. His character was called into question, as well as the usual guff that referees from Westmeath and places like that shouldn’t referee the greatest show on earth (or the batin’ and wallopin’ that passes for Munster finals). Just now, on The Sunday Game, Ollie Moran admits that technically McGrath was correct to send McGrath off, but that Horgan still shouldn’t be sent off. What bullshit!

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Either the rule book as it currently stands should be followed, or it should be amended to allow for eight steps, barging, striking on the head and all the stuff that people seemingly approve of. Because at the moment we have an unofficial ‘quota’ of frees where there should be about 20 frees in a game of hurling and referees are doing what they can to balance this ‘quota’ over 70 minutes.
Fido wrote:Brian Gavin might well get it in the neck for his performance today but I think he did very well. I feel he reffed it as a supporter would want it rather than to the letter of the law as regards the possible sending off and the extra extra time for Clare's equaliser. The striking incident in the first half was a sending off offence but more stupid than malicious and I'd say the player involved thought straight away that his All-Ireland was over. In fairness to Gavin, he took his time, weighed it up and judged, correctly, that a) the game would be spoiled by a red card and b) that another stupid incident like it was unlikely to occur. He might well get a bollocking but he saved it as a game by giving the benefit of the doubt.
Clare can complain that he gave Cork some soft frees especially in the first half, but then again he pushed the rules to give them a chance to draw it - they were well into Fergie time for the equalising point. Again, he might get a hard time but he made sure natural justice prevailed. What more can you ask of a ref than that. For once the spirit of the law won over the letter of the law.
On a side note, I thought Davy Fitz was well out of order in his comments after the game considering how it could easily have been blown up with Cork ahead. JBM in comparison was keeping it classy. Davy would do well to follow suit whatever the result next day.
Pat Donegan. Signed out of respect for players and all involved with Offaly.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by bracknaghboy » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:42 pm

Plain of the Herbs wrote:I hear what your saying, Fido, and in fairness it reflects what many others are saying. That’s why this rant isn’t directed specifically at you, rather at what the population as a whole seem to demand from hurling referees.

Does the practice of ‘saving the game’ mean that it is acceptable for fellas to strike other players across the head and that referees should turn a blind eye in the interests of ‘saving the game’? Because, in my opinion, it’s not the referee’s job to ‘save the game’, any more than it’s his job to ensure that, when there is just a point in it, the game goes to a replay.

James McGrath has been ridiculed for sending Pat Horgan off in the Munster Final. His character was called into question, as well as the usual guff that referees from Westmeath and places like that shouldn’t referee the greatest show on earth (or the batin’ and wallopin’ that passes for Munster finals). Just now, on The Sunday Game, Ollie Moran admits that technically McGrath was correct to send McGrath off, but that Horgan still shouldn’t be sent off. What bullshit!

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Either the rule book as it currently stands should be followed, or it should be amended to allow for eight steps, barging, striking on the head and all the stuff that people seemingly approve of. Because at the moment we have an unofficial ‘quota’ of frees where there should be about 20 frees in a game of hurling and referees are doing what they can to balance this ‘quota’ over 70 minutes.
POTH is 100% correct. Referees seem to decide on a scenario by scenario basis what rules they will apply and what rules they will not apply. This goes for club games as well (I've seen some crazy stuff from refs this weekend in Offaly alone). I'd have one question for Brian Gavin this evening and that is if the game was a draw with 72:00 gone and Clare took that puckout would he have blown full time or would he still have allowed it go to 72:30? Hmmmm.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by The Biff » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:02 pm

I thought Brian Gavin did well overall, and I wont quibble with his added time either. Weren't there a few subs brought on right at the end of normal time, which would take up a bit of time and be AFTER the notice for planned additional time had been put in? So he was bang on.

Also I've seen very little comment about Darach Honan also getting booked in the infamous "non-sending-off" incident. Just because the TV Replay didn't pick up whatever he did to justify that, the focus is all on Shane O'Neill. I'm prepared to accept the best independent evidence available, i.e. two umpires standing about 5 yards away from the two players. Brian Gavin spoke directly to them and acted accordingly. I respect that teamwork more than I pay any heed to a blood-boiling team manager after watching his team doing their best to lose a match they should have won easily.

POTH has it spot on too about the rules messing. Either follow the letter of the rule book or allow chaos reign.
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Bord na Mona man
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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by Bord na Mona man » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 pm

There is too much complaining about Gavin and I think Clare and neutrals pulling for them are overly focussing on this because of how Clare blew a massive chance of an All Ireland.

First off, there was the perception beforehand that Gavin would 'let the play flow' and let both teams rip the heads off each other as in now tradition in AI finals. His appointment was particularly welcomed by those who were unhappy with the greater enforcement of the rules in this year's championship.
Clare seemed suckered into the trap more than Cork early on and their over exuberant tackling was punished. Also, Clare conceded 13 metres a number of times for dissent. Another sign that their discipline wasn't all there.

The outrage over Pat Horgan getting red in the Munster final for hitting down on the head was probably a factor in the O'Neill yellow card. Also when it's an umpire's word, a referee tends to be even more reluctant. It should have been a red and maybe had Gavin seen it properly, he would have taken this view.

The 2 swing decisions were for the charging Cork player winning a free and McInerney being blown for overholding after receiving what looked like a chop.
However I got the feeling that Gavin realised these were contentious and evened it up a little. He let Clare away with a couple of obvious offences afterwards, including a blatant pick up off the ground. He also warned the Clare keeper Kelly about staying on his line the 2nd time he faced an Anthony Nash placed ball. Which was tantamount acknowledgement that he let him away with a blatant infringement for the first one.

The side with the persecution complex rarely sees this though. A referee is better off to pull up the other side for a couple of small things instead to make it more obvious that a bit of balancing is taking place.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by KingKobra » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:40 pm

At the end of the day ref's generally make a few wrong decisions on any given day but if a team is good enough they should win regardless. Ref's usually recognise their mistakes during the game, although never admitting so but they will try and balance their decisions to get off the hook. And this is a classic example Gavin had a bad game, some terrible decisions but he evened it up in the end. Luckily O'Donavan took his chance when he got it because Clare were the better team and didn't deserve to lose.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by SearingDrive » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:28 am

A strike is red card offence, regadless of AI finals or provincial games. On the resciding of red cards this summer, it looks like high profile players, aided by the media,who seem to get the decision, would players from the less successful but equally committed counties get such leeway, no way.

Now we look to the replay on 28th at 5pm, and a different referee. I think Cork might have the edge the next day.

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by summerindublin » Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:49 am

I still fancy Clare tpo win the replay especially if Fitzie plays the sweeper role which I think he will, if he does there will be no 3 goals for Cork

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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by SearingDrive » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:04 pm

Plain of the Herbs wrote:SD (and others),

The County Board website is rarely updated any more, but they did throw up this piece on Offaly All-Ireland referees -
http://offaly.gaa.ie/offaly-news/tradit ... scontinues

Mick Spain actually never refereed a County Senior Final in his own county as the practice at the time was to have outside referees to officiate at County Deciders (as it was in several other counties).
Thanks for that POTH, there were some names I hadn't heard before. Was Pat White 1887 referee, a native of Kiloughey?

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Fido
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Re: Offaly All Ireland Referees

Post by Fido » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:53 pm

Absolutely take your point POTH about the rulebook either being enforced or amended, and absolutely striking with the hurl is and should be a red card offence.
I suppose I was pre-empting the hard time Gavin was going to get by saying he did a good job overall and that I could see where he was coming from with the decisions. I believe Ger Loughnane made comments later on Sunday evening criticising him which I briefly heard Daithí Regan rebutting on Newstalk. Like often happens, both sides could have cause for complaint if they wanted to - one side doing all the complaining doesn't show them in a good light, which is unfortunate and is of no value to their young players who did brilliantly and who have two big games now to concentrate on.
No question, the decision not to show a red was wrong, but speaking purely as a neutral the game remaining 15 v 15 added to the enjoyment of the game. Nobody was injured and the game settled down. There's always an element of interpretation of rules and you can see how he came to the decision not to show red in the context of the game. Factor in that he didn't seem to see the incident, replays didn't even show the lead-up, and that he consulted his umpires. Also as has been mentioned, he was within his rights adding 30 seconds for substitutions, time taken for the sideline cut etc, and there was no guarantee that Clare would equalise. So on the whole I think he did well - what happened happened and his decisions didn't impact negatively on the game.

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