Championship Structures

[GOOFY]

Lads/Lassies,

Does anyone know the situation with the structures this year in particular to relegation from the various grades of football/hurling throughout the championships.

In relation to the SFC/SHC is it the 2 bottom teams in both groups play a semi final relegation and then a final or is it the two bottom teams simply play one relegation final, and is this the case with Intermediate as well? I cant seem to find the championship structures on the Offaly gaa website.

Thanks

[Plain of the Herbs]

Like you, Goofy, I've a recollection that there was a change made to championship structures for 2013 which involved relegation semi-finals in Senior hurling. I've just had a quick look at the Master List on the County Board's site and it ain't there. I've also had a look at the Master List which is reproduced on the St Rynagh's Hurling site, and this change isn't there either. Last year such detail was on the bottom of the Master List.

Quite how relegation semi-finals will work in Intermediate Hurling (which consists of 11 clubs) is another thing.

[joe bloggs]

Yes it was changed to have semi finals

[Thereorthereabouts]

Is this for SHC and SFC or all levels including IFC??

[kinnittyman]

Yes it seems this year that there will be relegation semi-finals in the SHC. 5th in Group 1 vs 6th in Group 2 and vice versa with the losers playing in the relegation final. Worrying times for the likes of Drumcullen, Lusmagh, Kinnitty and Brosna Gaels. Come relegation semi-finals players could be injured, suspended or elsewhere. Weather could be a big factor also so it's impossible to say with any great certainty who will go down.

Having witnessed a good few championship matches this year I feel it's clear that a change is badly needed with the Senior Hurling Championship. The majority of the group games have lacked intensity with only St Rynaghs vs Coolderry and Kinnitty vs Belmont (of games I've seen) standing out as decent championship fare. The safety net of 4 teams qualifying from each group means many teams can operate at 75% while knowing 2 wins will see them through. It makes no sense that there are 30 group games just to eliminate 4 teams.

If the County Board are adamant that they want to keep two groups of 6 I think it would boost interest, intensity and attendances during the group stages to see only 3 teams qualify from each group. With the winners of each group going straight to the semi final and 2nd in Group 1 play 3rd in Group 2 and vice versa in the Quarter Finals. For the novelty factor I'd also like to see the 2 second place teams being rewarded by allowing them to have home advantage in Q-Finals (If they couldn't hold the game, they can nominate a venue that would

The current format is not working in my opinion.

[Slieve Bloom Man]

Agree Kinnittyman. However these recommendations were put forward by a committee last year only to be rejected at a County Board meeting when clubs went against it. One of the strongest voices against change to 3 teams qualifying instead of 4 was our own club -Kinnitty.

[Plain of the Herbs]

I know I’ve said this before but I think it’s worth repeating. Having three progressing from the group, with the table-topping team going straight to the semi-final will leave that table-topping team without a match for four weeks. That would be five weeks were that in force this year (see master fixtures list). I don’t think that would be fair either.

Remember least year how the fourth-placed teams performed in the quarter-finals – Brosna Gaels ran Birr to three points and ’Rynagh’s whupped Coolderry. So it’s not as if the first v fourth necessarily provide cakewalks either.

There are going to be issues no matter what system is in force. Let’s face it, everyone is going to look at it from the perspective of their own club. I’m looking at Lusmagh’s second-half performance when they threw the kitchen sink at Belmont and thinking it had taken two and a half matches for them to get up to the pitch of Senior hurling again after a year at Intermediate. Last year the five match group series was important to Lusmagh from the point of view of momentum building.

Essentially the system is going to yield what clubs are going to put into it anyway. Other posters here have complained previously that when their club won their first two group games they had already qualified for the quarter-finals so they went on the doss and were unable to regain the momentum once September came. Shur, why not keep the momentum up? Which is what Lusmagh did last year.

Of course, it all depends on what you want to see. Do you want to see the best team win the County Championship? Or do you want to see a number of shock results along the way?

One bugbear of the system at the moment is one that has been imposed from headquarters. That is that in the event of a tie between two teams within a group, the result of the match between those two teams decides the verdict. As a result, Tullamore had effectively qualified for the quarter-finals after beating both Drumcullen and Brosna Gaels. Had Belmont held on for a win over Lusmagh they would have did likewise.

Two things to bear in mind. 1 – You can only be knocked out once. 2 – there will nearly always be a hierarchy of strong teams, middling teams and weaker teams; for a number of reasons and no system is going to change that, so there are going to be a number of uncompetitive matches along the way.

[kinnittyman]

Plain,

I was just reading your post there and your point on two teams on level points got me to thinking (I'm going to use Kinnitty, Lusmagh, Birr and Drumcullen in this example)

Hypothetical situation with score difference being the differential when teams finish level on points:

Kinnitty play Lusmagh in Round 4 of Championship with both teams on 2 points and the winner almost guaranteed to go through. Kinnitty come out on top after a ding dong game improving to 4 points and improving their score difference to +9 while Lusmagh remain on 2 points with a points difference of -5.

In the last round of games Kinnitty play Birr who are in the mix up for a Q-Final place and lose by 6points while Lusmagh play and already eliminated Drumcullen and hammer them by 13 points thus knocking Kinnitty out mainly due to the way the fixtures fell for Lusmagh.

While it mightn't be ideal I think I'd prefer the current format if Play-Offs are not to be used. I think it's a fairer way of deciding between two teams.

[Plain of the Herbs]

I suppose it goes to show that there are pros and cons to every possible system. And I've consistently (well, until this week, I guess) held that there shouldn't be an incentive to beat a team by as much as you can.

Another thing. The tendency in recent years has been for the top-seeded teams to meet each other in round 1. This is a bid to 'launch' the championships. The effect of this has been that the bottom seeded teams also play each other in round 1. Which leaves the loser effectively 'out' of the championship at that stage.

Plain,

I was just reading your post there and your point on two teams on level points got me to thinking (I'm going to use Kinnitty, Lusmagh, Birr and Drumcullen in this example)

Hypothetical situation with score difference being the differential when teams finish level on points:

Kinnitty play Lusmagh in Round 4 of Championship with both teams on 2 points and the winner almost guaranteed to go through. Kinnitty come out on top after a ding dong game improving to 4 points and improving their score difference to +9 while Lusmagh remain on 2 points with a points difference of -5.

In the last round of games Kinnitty play Birr who are in the mix up for a Q-Final place and lose by 6points while Lusmagh play and already eliminated Drumcullen and hammer them by 13 points thus knocking Kinnitty out mainly due to the way the fixtures fell for Lusmagh.

While it mightn't be ideal I think I'd prefer the current format if Play-Offs are not to be used. I think it's a fairer way of deciding between two teams.